Recall - Something 'special'

[Kavik]

I think you can get on Sporting Register through either pedigree (WKC papers is how my dogs get on) or through sheepdog clubs through merit, but I don't know much about that as I haven't done it that way, but people have told me it is possible to do that.

[sheena]

I think you can get on Sporting Register through either pedigree (WKC papers is how my dogs get on) or through sheepdog clubs through merit, but I don't know much about that as I haven't done it that way, but people have told me it is possible to do that.

I doubt very much if these people are willing to go down that track...but thanks anyway. The nearest place for sheep herding from here is about 4 hours drive away. FWIIW...where do they hold ADAA trials in NSW apart from the Grand Prix & Sydney. ??

[Kavik]

I am in Sydney so there are a few there :laugh: though I am not doing ADAA at the moment.

There are competitions in Warilla and Douglas Park

[Simply Grand]

Interesting, this article just popped up in my newsfeed:

"Switzerland Scraps Mandatory Dog Training"

http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-37418371

[sheena]

I am in Sydney so there are a few there :laugh: though I am not doing ADAA at the moment.

There are competitions in Warilla and Douglas Park

Yeah...way too far away for me, but might suit Willem. Shame because I really like the ADAA courses.

[Willem]

I confess...I have not read through all of this post, so sorry if it has been mentioned before....but one good reason for having your dog desexed is that unless it is Registered with an ANKC recognised body, then it can't compete in ANKC dog sports as it needs to be desexed before it can go on the Associate Register & it needs to be on the AR before it can compete.

...that's interesting...especially if you want to compete with a Golden Retrievers where the risk of ligament injuries is dramatically increased for de-sexed dogs....it is not required if I register my dog with ADAA (TBC)...?...

Not sure with ADAA, but to compete in ADAA competitions you will need to travel to Queensland ...with the Grand Prix excepted as that is held in Tamworth once a year. But I know that until your dog is desexed you will not be able to register it with ANKC.

As far as Golden Retrievers go, they can't compete until they are 18 months old & by then they would probably be desexed.

There are ADAA competitions in NSW :)

Some breeds that have an alternate registry to ANKC can go on the Sporting Register and not need to be desexed to compete in sports. Eg Kelpies registered with WKC, Koolies registered with the Koolie club. I think there are a few sheepdog registeries too, which register on merit/ability rather than pedigree, so Willem could get a BC on Sporting Register through there if his dog had ability on sheep.

Not up my way there isn't :laugh: So to register your dog on the working dog register, I would have thought that you would still have had to have bought that dog from a WDR breeder & that it would come with WDR papers. Sorry to hijack the thread but I have a new dog in my class at agility. He is an 18 month old backyard bred BC...lovely dog but definately no papers. The owners didn't even know the correct name for his colour....they thought he was a golden BC. He is entire, simply because the owner thinks it's sissy to desex your male dog. I am going to have to break the news to them, that if they want to compete in ANKC sports, then he is going to have to be desexed.

...no need to be sorry, and I really appreciate this kind information - thanks also to Kavik....I might do ADAA...but my / our fun in training doesn't depend on it...

[Willem]

I am in Sydney so there are a few there :laugh: though I am not doing ADAA at the moment.

There are competitions in Warilla and Douglas Park

Yeah...way too far away for me, but might suit Willem. Shame because I really like the ADAA courses.

...and Albion Park too (I have to ask the experts from our club) ...all relative near by...

[Willem]

Interesting, this article just popped up in my newsfeed:

"Switzerland Scraps Mandatory Dog Training"

http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-37418371

Thanks for this - interesting.

...just 4 hours of mandatory obedience training....and then they are surprised that it doesn't make a big difference?...I remember the first months of our official training...pure chaos and jealous looks to the more advanced groups...

[m-j]

Interesting, this article just popped up in my newsfeed:

"Switzerland Scraps Mandatory Dog Training"

http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-37418371

That is just backing up what we have all said would be great, but people are people. just going to training isn't going to work it needs to be ongoing, which is where I found most people that weren't dog fanatics fell down. They just weren't interested enough.

[Simply Grand]

@ SG: look, I don't 'provoke' other dogs / owners as I don't visit dog parks and the like when she is on heat (hence also no official obedience or agility classes), however, I will fight for my right to walk my trained dog and won't put her in solitary confinement if she is on heat independent whether other owners don't train their dogs and let them stray. In a way it is easy for me to stick to this as I'm not afraid of other dogs (never was) and while I tried hard I never got seriously bitten - I understand that this is not a given for other people and that they will struggle with potential consequences if they - or their dogs - would get intimidated by straying dogs.

What I don't understand is that we obviously surrender to all these ignorant dog owners out there, and instead of making obedience training mandatory to address the real problem we pushing mandatory de-sexing...

Neither perse nor I said said you did Willem. We were agreeing with each other that there can be impacts of bitches in season being out in areas other dogs frequent, beyond the impact on the individual bitch and their owner.

Mandatory obedience training, if even possible to implement, would not solve the issue of accidental, unplanned, poorly planned, unwanted etc etc etc litters. A beautifully trained bitch pottering in her yard while in season can still be mated by a beautifully trained entire male who jumps the fence.

true, a lot of things can happen which are very unlikely - and if they happen, are the numbers resulting from those accidents really the ones that causes the overpopulation and problems in the pounds?...I don't think so, and also other countries, e.g. Sweden with less than 7% of the dogs de-sexed, clearly indicate that this is not the case. Accidents will happen in Sweden too, but the chances that it happens are small, hence no impact on pound numbers. I think the correlation between those accidents and owners who don't care much about their dogs at all - whether it is general training or state - is pretty obvious.

Willem, is it just mandatory/encouragement of desexing you have an issue with or all desexing? Do you think people should be leaving dogs entire as a general rule, with desexing only done in certain circumstances?

...have a look at my response to Jules...what else do I need to say :) ?

Err no one here is going to find that even slightly 'special'. You do realise you are on a purebred dog forum that supports showing and breeding?

..well, I recall a thread where I was called names from a few members here when I mentioned that I walked my dog even though when she is on heat...

I understand that de-sexing can be one tool in the box for good dog management, and in special scenarios it can add quality to a dog's live, however, IMO the public presentation is IMO pretty one-sided and misinforming....and many people fall into this trap just to struggle later with all the unwanted consequences. Hence I thought demonstrating that dogs in heat (and in most other states) are still normal dogs via the footage might help some dog owners to make a more balanced decision.

Unfortunately some authorities and organisations push the 'mandatory de-sexing approach' instead of a 'mandatory obedience training approach' for dog owners. While both of these options might be hard to enforce anyway, I think the later one is much smarter and would achieve by far the better results.

Sorry, I'm still not clear on what your stance is. Am I correct in thinking you believe that all dogs here in Australia should be kept entire unless there is a specific reason to desex them?

If yes, what are your specific reasons for believing that?

A clear, direct answer would be very much appreciated, in the interest of valid discussion.

[Willem]

@ SG: look, I don't 'provoke' other dogs / owners as I don't visit dog parks and the like when she is on heat (hence also no official obedience or agility classes), however, I will fight for my right to walk my trained dog and won't put her in solitary confinement if she is on heat independent whether other owners don't train their dogs and let them stray. In a way it is easy for me to stick to this as I'm not afraid of other dogs (never was) and while I tried hard I never got seriously bitten - I understand that this is not a given for other people and that they will struggle with potential consequences if they - or their dogs - would get intimidated by straying dogs.

What I don't understand is that we obviously surrender to all these ignorant dog owners out there, and instead of making obedience training mandatory to address the real problem we pushing mandatory de-sexing...

Neither perse nor I said said you did Willem. We were agreeing with each other that there can be impacts of bitches in season being out in areas other dogs frequent, beyond the impact on the individual bitch and their owner.

Mandatory obedience training, if even possible to implement, would not solve the issue of accidental, unplanned, poorly planned, unwanted etc etc etc litters. A beautifully trained bitch pottering in her yard while in season can still be mated by a beautifully trained entire male who jumps the fence.

true, a lot of things can happen which are very unlikely - and if they happen, are the numbers resulting from those accidents really the ones that causes the overpopulation and problems in the pounds?...I don't think so, and also other countries, e.g. Sweden with less than 7% of the dogs de-sexed, clearly indicate that this is not the case. Accidents will happen in Sweden too, but the chances that it happens are small, hence no impact on pound numbers. I think the correlation between those accidents and owners who don't care much about their dogs at all - whether it is general training or state - is pretty obvious.

Willem, is it just mandatory/encouragement of desexing you have an issue with or all desexing? Do you think people should be leaving dogs entire as a general rule, with desexing only done in certain circumstances?

...have a look at my response to Jules...what else do I need to say :) ?

Err no one here is going to find that even slightly 'special'. You do realise you are on a purebred dog forum that supports showing and breeding?

..well, I recall a thread where I was called names from a few members here when I mentioned that I walked my dog even though when she is on heat...

I understand that de-sexing can be one tool in the box for good dog management, and in special scenarios it can add quality to a dog's live, however, IMO the public presentation is IMO pretty one-sided and misinforming....and many people fall into this trap just to struggle later with all the unwanted consequences. Hence I thought demonstrating that dogs in heat (and in most other states) are still normal dogs via the footage might help some dog owners to make a more balanced decision.

Unfortunately some authorities and organisations push the 'mandatory de-sexing approach' instead of a 'mandatory obedience training approach' for dog owners. While both of these options might be hard to enforce anyway, I think the later one is much smarter and would achieve by far the better results.

Sorry, I'm still not clear on what your stance is. Am I correct in thinking you believe that all dogs here in Australia should be kept entire unless there is a specific reason to desex them?

If yes, what are your specific reasons for believing that?

A clear, direct answer would be very much appreciated, in the interest of valid discussion.

...why would you de-sex a dog without reason?

...a dog is a dog, bred with balls and uterus, the systems developed over thousands of years of evolution - somehow effected by breeding, but still close to nature. We only know the peak of the iceberg how the hormone systems change over the lifetime and what impacts it has if we mess with it...interfering with it is like letting an apprentice running a nuclear power station. IMO it is the pinnacle of ignorance to say that de-sexing a dog at young age, thus interfering heavily with their hormone / immune system, is a safe thing to dog, especially if there are strong scientific hints telling us that it can backfire heavily wrt behaviour and health issues.

Saying this, there are of course scenarios where de-sexing can have its merits, e.g. saving a dog's life or improving quality of life, and would therefore be justified - but every decision should be evaluated carefully based on the individual unique scenario. However, I don't think that the later happens ...most decisions for de-sexing a dog are driven by our desire for convenience, it is easy to believe vets / RSPCA etc. (why bother to read a little bit outside the box?) and they are baiting you with this convenience...

De-sexing, in USA and Australia, has become a bad, bad substitute for appropriate, but time consuming training. We expect from a companion dog (it is the only mammal where we have so high expectations!!!) that it is well behaved, obedient and controls all his natural drives and instincts, but when it comes having to put the effort in for education and training, we are looking for shortcuts and more convenient measures. Look at all the biting accidents: they happen due to the lack of training and education!...not because of removed or not removed balls and uterus'.

I love dogs, because I love training dogs, and because they don't give a damn how much followers you have on twitter or how many likes you have on Fakebook, my dog even doesn't care whether I get bashed here on this forums for my comments or not :D ...and I always accepted them as the entire living organism - I found that is a pretty good approach if you want to get the best out of them.

The Norwegian Animal Welfare Act states that surgical procedures are not to be used to adapt animals to the needs of humans, unless strictly necessary!...and IMHO they got it right; here you get heavily fined for cropping a dog's ears or tail, but it is absolutely fine to take the balls off or the uterus out - I always have problems if I have to deal with those hypocrites who are misusing their power for justifying their own desire for convenience.

Edited September 27, 2016 by Willem

[JulesP]

I've never had a vet push me to desex a dog and I can't honestly recall much advertising etc coming from the RSPCA either. The Council might push it a bit but my Council charges the same for non-desexed dogs if you are a VCA member or it you have done obedience.

I really think you are over reacting about this.

[Pjrt]

To be honest looking to the long term future of the domestic dog I think the biggest issue with a push to desex is the loss of genetic diversity.

For good, bad and ugly , the bigger gene pool we have going forward, the better.

[Kavik]

I've never had a vet push me to desex a dog and I can't honestly recall much advertising etc coming from the RSPCA either. The Council might push it a bit but my Council charges the same for non-desexed dogs if you are a VCA member or it you have done obedience.

I really think you are over reacting about this.

Nitro is entire and I have been quite hassled by my vet to have him desexed, just about every time I go there with him!

[Willem]

I've never had a vet push me to desex a dog and I can't honestly recall much advertising etc coming from the RSPCA either. The Council might push it a bit but my Council charges the same for non-desexed dogs if you are a VCA member or it you have done obedience.

I really think you are over reacting about this.

...we both are lucky, you in VIC and I'm her in NSW...but what happens if we have - e.g. due to job changes - relocate to SA or ACT?...and how does RSPCA's stand on 'Surgical Modifications' compares to their stand on 'Responsible Companion Animal Ownership' ???? ...how hypocritical is this?

ETA:...and before someone discloses how brainwashed he/she already is arguing that the RSPCA also mentions ...'other safe suitable methods ' ...as alternatives for de-sexing (thus acknowledging that there are other suitable measures out there) in the link about 'Responsible Companion Animal Ownership': considering their stand on 'Surgical Modifications' how can they seriously promote de-sexing if there are other measures out there????

...it is like saying: ....'preventing unwanted/unplanned noise from your neighbour through killing him or other safe suitable methods' ...No!...your are not allowed to kill him if there are other safe and suitable methods!...not even in self-defense...

Edited September 27, 2016 by Willem

[Simply Grand]

Gosh it's hard to get a straight answer from you Willem.

So yes, you believe all dogs should be left entire unless the dog's life can be improved or saved (medically I assume you mean) by desexing?

And it is because you believe desexing is pushed as a convenient alternative to training, so people are desexing and not training their leading to behaviour problems and aggression in dogs?

Is that your position?

[OSoSwift]

Or you can be a responsible owner and own entire dogs ;)

[Willem]

Gosh it's hard to get a straight answer from you Willem.

So yes, you believe all dogs should be left entire unless the dog's life can be improved or saved (medically I assume you mean) by desexing?

And it is because you believe desexing is pushed as a convenient alternative to training, so people are desexing and not training their leading to behaviour problems and aggression in dogs?

Is that your position?

sorry for this, but it is a complex topic.

In general IMO de-sexing - or any other surgical modification - should be the last resort to address any normal behaviour of a dog, not the first. And 'normal' covers a wide range of drives and instincts - I'm convinced that most of the unwanted behaviours (which in a way can be still 'normal') resulting from those drives and instincts could be addressed with appropriate training and education. However, making de-sexing mandatory makes this measure a first choice being not only in contrast to current animal welfare, but also neglecting all the advantages of appropriate training.

[OSoSwift]

Often people don't desex to modify behaviour, they do it to not have puppies.

[Willem]

Often people don't desex to modify behaviour, they do it to not have puppies.

...that is what happens if you give a 'straight' answer :) ...my understanding is that also the 'reproduction' is a kind of behavior, and as even the RSPCA admits, there are alternative methods to address this specific behaviour respectively the drive that leads to such behaviour. However, as the alternative methods are more complicated and more time consuming and therefore less convenient, people tend to choose de-sexing - not for the welfare of their dog, but for their own convenience.