Recall - Something 'special'

[Willem]

@ SG: look, I don't 'provoke' other dogs / owners as I don't visit dog parks and the like when she is on heat (hence also no official obedience or agility classes), however, I will fight for my right to walk my trained dog and won't put her in solitary confinement if she is on heat independent whether other owners don't train their dogs and let them stray. In a way it is easy for me to stick to this as I'm not afraid of other dogs (never was) and while I tried hard I never got seriously bitten - I understand that this is not a given for other people and that they will struggle with potential consequences if they - or their dogs - would get intimidated by straying dogs.

What I don't understand is that we obviously surrender to all these ignorant dog owners out there, and instead of making obedience training mandatory to address the real problem we pushing mandatory de-sexing...

Neither perse nor I said said you did Willem. We were agreeing with each other that there can be impacts of bitches in season being out in areas other dogs frequent, beyond the impact on the individual bitch and their owner.

Mandatory obedience training, if even possible to implement, would not solve the issue of accidental, unplanned, poorly planned, unwanted etc etc etc litters. A beautifully trained bitch pottering in her yard while in season can still be mated by a beautifully trained entire male who jumps the fence.

true, a lot of things can happen which are very unlikely - and if they happen, are the numbers resulting from those accidents really the ones that causes the overpopulation and problems in the pounds?...I don't think so, and also other countries, e.g. Sweden with less than 7% of the dogs de-sexed, clearly indicate that this is not the case. Accidents will happen in Sweden too, but the chances that it happens are small, hence no impact on pound numbers. I think the correlation between those accidents and owners who don't care much about their dogs at all - whether it is general training or state - is pretty obvious.

Willem, is it just mandatory/encouragement of desexing you have an issue with or all desexing? Do you think people should be leaving dogs entire as a general rule, with desexing only done in certain circumstances?

...have a look at my response to Jules...what else do I need to say :) ?

Err no one here is going to find that even slightly 'special'. You do realise you are on a purebred dog forum that supports showing and breeding?

..well, I recall a thread where I was called names from a few members here when I mentioned that I walked my dog even though when she is on heat...

I understand that de-sexing can be one tool in the box for good dog management, and in special scenarios it can add quality to a dog's live, however, IMO the public presentation is IMO pretty one-sided and misinforming....and many people fall into this trap just to struggle later with all the unwanted consequences. Hence I thought demonstrating that dogs in heat (and in most other states) are still normal dogs via the footage might help some dog owners to make a more balanced decision.

Unfortunately some authorities and organisations push the 'mandatory de-sexing approach' instead of a 'mandatory obedience training approach' for dog owners. While both of these options might be hard to enforce anyway, I think the later one is much smarter and would achieve by far the better results.

Edited September 26, 2016 by Willem

[Willem]

Oh surprise surprise, Willem is pushing his 'do not desex' agenda...

...seems someone has to do it as the RSPCA is too busy because they have to euthanize all the dogs with behaviour issues...

ETA: ...now that is really interesting stuff: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/45251733_Behavioral_Reasons_for_Relinquishment_of_Dogs_and_Cats_to_12_Shelters ...some quotes:

...The NCPPSP RegionalShelter Study found that behavioral problems, including aggression toward people or nonhuman animals, were the most frequently given reasons for canine relinquishment...

and

...Neutered female dogs and cats and neutered male dogs were more frequent in the behavioral category of relinquishment.

Oh good, 16 year old 'science'.

Good googling.....

Not to me mention correlation vs causation.

...now that is an interesting stand ....don't trust science because it is 16 years old ...I guess the next thing is that you guys come up with that there was a time when people believe the earth was a disk?....

Skinner's doctrine are how old?...

[Willem]

Oh surprise surprise, Willem is pushing his 'do not desex' agenda...

...seems someone has to do it as the RSPCA is too busy because they have to euthanize all the dogs with behaviour issues...

ETA: ...now that is really interesting stuff: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/45251733_Behavioral_Reasons_for_Relinquishment_of_Dogs_and_Cats_to_12_Shelters ...some quotes:

...The NCPPSP RegionalShelter Study found that behavioral problems, including aggression toward people or nonhuman animals, were the most frequently given reasons for canine relinquishment...

and

...Neutered female dogs and cats and neutered male dogs were more frequent in the behavioral category of relinquishment.

Yes but if their parents had been desexed non of them would have ended up in the shelters.

...you talking about the dog owners' parents or the dogs' parents?....I guess it doesn't matter as both options are true :D - at least if you would de-sex them early enough...but then, if I follow this approach, the only way to end that dogs will end up in pounds is to have no dogs at all, or do you really think that only the dogs bred by accident end up in pounds?

Edited September 26, 2016 by Willem

[Willem]

Ahh, Willem - you have every right to walk an in season bitch - same as you have every right to go to work whilst in the grip of the flu, or a gastro bug .. that doesn't mean you HAVE to ;)

ouch ...that hurts ....do you really implying that a season is something like a disease??????

[Willem]

...I really should stop encouraging others to leave their dogs entire ...less work for me with my entire dog if all the dogs in the neighbourhood are de-sexed :D

[Willem]

…when we had the problem with our dog where we couldn’t get her focus when other dogs where around because it got her in a very aroused state (it was enough a dog head appeared on the horizon to make her going nuts), I started to train her with the flirt pole. At the beginning it was more a testing for getting her focus and burning energy, but later I noticed that this was an excellent exercise to train her in a controlled environment when she was in an aroused state….so I used it also to train the basic obedience cues (sit, drop, stand, recalls…place….) when she was high aroused…and it worked.

It worked so well, that approx. a year later I can do the passing exercise with nearly any other dog in the obedience training without losing her focus, despite that her strong desire to run and play with other dogs is still there – she just learned due to the training in an aroused state to control it and only does it if she is allowed to do so.

Now, there is – unfortunately – not much scientific knowledge about what parameters change these behaviour and / or emotional states and how exactly it all works together, however we know a few fragments that allows to jump to conclusions. E.g. we know that in stress situation the adrenaline level is up, causing mammals to become less pain sensitive and increase overall performance, and we know – roughly – how the thyroid level effects the mood. We know that the testosterone level increases significantly in a young growing dog and that it will reach a peak after 6 to 18 month (approx., depending on individual dog and breed) – if we don't cut his balls off before it happens.

We know that the hormone levels various over times and for different development periods, some hormones level will change even through the day. Hence I think it is fair to say that we have to deal with quite complex hormone patterns that are responsible for the different drives and behaviours in our dogs. They change all the time, one hormone level goes up, the other decreases, following a perfect program designed by thousands of years of evolution. If we interfere with this program without even knowing the details, we risk negative impacts regarding their immune system, reproductive system and consequently normal behaviour.

I think it is also fair to say, that those hormone patterns will vary more during the development of a young dog compared to a matured dog when the different systems emphasise more on maintaining the status quo and are less challenged with setting up a growing organism for reproduction respectively survival. One day the scientists will come up with a ‘new’ discovery where they link the different fear phases in a dog to specific hormone patterns and they will tell you exactly the particular concentration of each hormone responsible for the particular state. While this will add details and will be acknowledged as a scientific evidence and big achievement – I think we can recognise these connections already due to knowledge available right now.

We also know that a dog that was trained in isolation – e.g. in a backyard – where it showed perfect obedience will fail in an environment with new triggers that causes the hormone pattern to change.

So what can we take from this?....

For me it seems to be pretty clear that if we want that a dog becomes a well behaved companion dog, we have to do the training for all these different hormone patterns. Often dog owners visit puppy schools and then a few month obedience classes, and because the dog becomes a well behaved dog they think that’s enough. Half a year later and with the concentration of testosterone doubled in the blood the dog behaves (of course he does!!!) total different, might get aggressive, and the changed behaviour is addressed with cutting the balls off. It is not the dogs fault! …the dog just wasn’t trained for this changing hormone pattern.

Sooooo ….ongoing training is the key.

What about entire bitches on heat? ….some dog owners will think OMG, solitary confinement for the next 3 weeks, and suddenly a dog used to daily exercises and walks gets locked away for 3 weeks. Of course the dog gets frustrated and will come up with all kind of unwanted behaviours, not necessarily linked to the fact that she is on heat, but to the lack of exercises and interference with the environment she was used to. Many dog owners will link all these unwanted behaviours to her heat cycle, plus they will miss the chance to train the dog for this new hormone pattern.

And that’s the purpose of this video clip, to demonstrate that ongoing training, no matter in what kind of state the dog is, is the key for a well behaved dog.

She has a high prey drive, but she doesn’t chase the bull – if I would say ‘push’ or ‘take it’ instead of ‘drop’, her behaviour would be totally different; however, I set her up for this scenario hence she has no problems to control herself and comes happily when recalled, despite that this strong prey drive is still there - and can be triggered any time via the right cue!

Now she is in heat, but in a way it is just another hormone pattern, and being setup for this specific pattern she won’t run off or behaves differently. I know a dog owner of an entire male dogs and we could do the passing exercise in obedience - because both dogs have been trained to do so.

Now, before I duck for cover: I’m fully aware that not every dog is trained like this, hence there are some rules I adopt when she is in heat, e.g.

• Limiting contacts to dogs respectively only allow contacts with dogs which are known to be trained, or de-sexed, or females, including supervision all the time while these dogs are in the vicinity.
  
• No official obedience or agility classes – training happens only at home or while walking when no other dogs are around.
  
• Make sure gates and doors are closed at home all times, inspect fence daily.
  
• ...common sense....
  

But…IMHO, there is no substitute for training for a companion dog, no matter in which state the dog currently is.

Bump!

...the biggest problem I have with those de-sexing promotions from the RSPCA and the like is, that it is offered as a convenient substitute for time consuming training and education. What does such an attitude - choosing 'mandatory de-sexing' over emphasising intensive training and education - reveals about a society? ...that is something that really worries me...

[Roova]

How would you suggest the Australian population be re-educated then? Maybe take some suggestions to those who can do something about it?

Keeping in mind the majority of pet owners are unwitting? lazy and uneducated on carrying for different species anyway. Some think buying an expensive food makes them a responsible owner, some couldn't care if their dog is on supermarket food. Some don't desex because they can't afford to, and some don't so they can make money from a litter of puppies.

What could be used to incentivise these people to suddenly start intensive training?

[The Spotted Devil]

Oh surprise surprise, Willem is pushing his 'do not desex' agenda...

...seems someone has to do it as the RSPCA is too busy because they have to euthanize all the dogs with behaviour issues...

ETA: ...now that is really interesting stuff: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/45251733_Behavioral_Reasons_for_Relinquishment_of_Dogs_and_Cats_to_12_Shelters ...some quotes:

...The NCPPSP RegionalShelter Study found that behavioral problems, including aggression toward people or nonhuman animals, were the most frequently given reasons for canine relinquishment...

and

...Neutered female dogs and cats and neutered male dogs were more frequent in the behavioral category of relinquishment.

Oh good, 16 year old 'science'.

Good googling.....

Not to me mention correlation vs causation.

...now that is an interesting stand ....don't trust science because it is 16 years old ...I guess the next thing is that you guys come up with that there was a time when people believe the earth was a disk?....

Skinner's doctrine are how old?...

No. That's not what I said. I said correlation vs causation. There's actually a number of studies that identify entire dogs being a risk factor for turning up in shelters. And I don't go rattling them off as a reason for desexing either. Your use of scientific literature could be called selective at best.

Edited September 26, 2016 by The Spotted Devil

[Willem]

Oh surprise surprise, Willem is pushing his 'do not desex' agenda...

...seems someone has to do it as the RSPCA is too busy because they have to euthanize all the dogs with behaviour issues...

ETA: ...now that is really interesting stuff: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/45251733_Behavioral_Reasons_for_Relinquishment_of_Dogs_and_Cats_to_12_Shelters ...some quotes:

...The NCPPSP RegionalShelter Study found that behavioral problems, including aggression toward people or nonhuman animals, were the most frequently given reasons for canine relinquishment...

and

...Neutered female dogs and cats and neutered male dogs were more frequent in the behavioral category of relinquishment.

Oh good, 16 year old 'science'.

Good googling.....

Not to me mention correlation vs causation.

...now that is an interesting stand ....don't trust science because it is 16 years old ...I guess the next thing is that you guys come up with that there was a time when people believe the earth was a disk?....

Skinner's doctrine are how old?...

No. That's not what I said. I said correlation vs causation. There's actually a number of studies that identify entire dogs being a risk factor for turning up in shelters. And I don't go rattling them off as a reason for desexing either. Your use of scientific literature could be called selective at best.

....can we see these studies and how they compare to the 16 year old study I quoted?

[Willem]

How would you suggest the Australian population be re-educated then? Maybe take some suggestions to those who can do something about it?

Keeping in mind the majority of pet owners are unwitting? lazy and uneducated on carrying for different species anyway. Some think buying an expensive food makes them a responsible owner, some couldn't care if their dog is on supermarket food. Some don't desex because they can't afford to, and some don't so they can make money from a litter of puppies.

What could be used to incentivise these people to suddenly start intensive training?

we have to look at countries that implemented solutions that actually work, and have to copy them (maybe with slight amendments)...copying is not a bad strategy if you copy the right thing.

The only countries that promote de-sexing as the silver bullet for everything are USA and Australia (and partly Canada due to the influence of their mighty neighbour)...and does this strategy work in USA or in Australia?...other countries focus on what is really important and have no problems with pounds, straying dogs and overpopulation. In Norway it is even forbidden to de-sex, in Sweden less than 4% of the male dogs and less than 7% of the females are de-sexed and they have no problems with overpopulation - if you follow the arguments of the RSPCA here, this is just not possible....so is all the information about Sweden or other countries wrong?...or are the arguments of the RSPCA heavily flawed?

...the problem is that we have to deal with what I call a 'tobacco-brainwash-syndrome': advertising and bombarding people with information will get the majority to believe in it, no matter whether the information is right or wrong - once you reach this stage of acceptance it takes ages to turn this around....

ETA:...unfortunately the reason why these tobacco-brainwash-syndromes work lies in our nature: if someone offers us 2 solutions for a problem, we always tend to take the more convenient one also this one might not have the better arguments from a factual point of view...smokers were told for decades that smoking has no health effects and doesn't cause addiction ....and even when they could feel all the signs indicating that this wasn't true, they still wanted to believe in the lies the tobacco industry told them...

Edited September 26, 2016 by Willem

[m-j]

Oh surprise surprise, Willem is pushing his 'do not desex' agenda...

...seems someone has to do it as the RSPCA is too busy because they have to euthanize all the dogs with behaviour issues...

ETA: ...now that is really interesting stuff: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/45251733_Behavioral_Reasons_for_Relinquishment_of_Dogs_and_Cats_to_12_Shelters ...some quotes:

...The NCPPSP RegionalShelter Study found that behavioral problems, including aggression toward people or nonhuman animals, were the most frequently given reasons for canine relinquishment...

and

...Neutered female dogs and cats and neutered male dogs were more frequent in the behavioral category of relinquishment.

Yes but if their parents had been desexed non of them would have ended up in the shelters.

...you talking about the dog owners' parents or the dogs' parents?....I guess it doesn't matter as both options are true :D - at least if you would de-sex them early enough...but then, if I follow this approach, the only way to end that dogs will end up in pounds is to have no dogs at all,

:laugh: of course not it was said with tongue in cheek, but you can't argue with the logic.

While I agree with you re training should be mandatory, we will have to agree to disagree on leaving dogs entire. While leaving them entire does have it's merits for their health not convinced that it really makes that much difference to their behaviour, there are so many variables that can be applied to behaviour at any given moment and or with an individual.

ETA Oops I cut out instead of bolding the bit of your post I was referring to.

Edited September 26, 2016 by m-j

[Willem]

wrt 'pure breed forum' (someone - I think it was Jules - mentioned it): we also need to consider that the criteria, how a dog / blood line can cope with early de-sexing was never part of the breeding standards. Now the following can happen: a litter gets de-sexed at an early age, and 50% of the pups show behavioural issues at a later stage due to the interrupted maturing as a result of the hormone imbalance caused by de-sexing. The breeder, not aware of the cause for the negative breeding result might stop breeding these dogs to avoid further disappointments.

So if we implement mandatory de-sexing in every state, does the capability regarding how the dog / a line can cope with an early de-sexing has to become part of every breeding standard?...and what about the semen sourced from overseas?

Edited September 26, 2016 by Willem

[m-j]

wrt 'pure breed forum' (someone - I think it was Jules - mentioned it): we also need to consider that the criteria, how a dog / blood line can cope with early de-sexing was never part of the breeding standards. Now the following can happen: a litter gets de-sexed at an early age, and 50% of the pups show behavioural issues at a later stage due to the interrupted maturing as a result of the hormone imbalance caused by de-sexing. The breeder, not aware of the cause for the negative breeding result might stop breeding these dogs to avoid further disappointments.

So if we implement mandatory de-sexing in every state, does the capability regarding how the dog / a line can cope with an early de-sexing has to become part of every breeding standard?...and what about the semen sourced from overseas?

Other hereditary things are screened for why not? If it stops dogs ending up in shelters, having a horrible life because they're not valued, the bitch going through a bad time every time she is in pup and has whelped them etc..... Plus just because they are entire doesn't mean hormones can't go awry. I had a bitch that did the doggy equivalent of bursting into tears at the drop of a hat when in season, poor thing she must have been feeling awful, the solution was get her desexed, consistently happy dog. Obviously I'm only guessing hormones where the culprit as no tests were done, but the results indicated this could be the case.

[sheena]

I confess...I have not read through all of this post, so sorry if it has been mentioned before....but one good reason for having your dog desexed is that unless it is Registered with an ANKC recognised body, then it can't compete in ANKC dog sports as it needs to be desexed before it can go on the Associate Register & it needs to be on the AR before it can compete.

[OSoSwift]

So she is entire, possibly you are hinting she is on heat and she recalled to a number of cues. Is that it????

[Willem]

I confess...I have not read through all of this post, so sorry if it has been mentioned before....but one good reason for having your dog desexed is that unless it is Registered with an ANKC recognised body, then it can't compete in ANKC dog sports as it needs to be desexed before it can go on the Associate Register & it needs to be on the AR before it can compete.

...that's interesting...especially if you want to compete with a Golden Retrievers where the risk of ligament injuries is dramatically increased for de-sexed dogs....it is not required if I register my dog with ADAA (TBC)...?...

[Willem]

So she is entire, possibly you are hinting she is on heat and she recalled to a number of cues. Is that it????

we are close to 100 posts in the meanwhile, and most of these posts contain more interesting information, however, I'm concerned that I get shot if I repeat it again :)

[sheena]

I confess...I have not read through all of this post, so sorry if it has been mentioned before....but one good reason for having your dog desexed is that unless it is Registered with an ANKC recognised body, then it can't compete in ANKC dog sports as it needs to be desexed before it can go on the Associate Register & it needs to be on the AR before it can compete.

...that's interesting...especially if you want to compete with a Golden Retrievers where the risk of ligament injuries is dramatically increased for de-sexed dogs....it is not required if I register my dog with ADAA (TBC)...?...

Not sure with ADAA, but to compete in ADAA competitions you will need to travel to Queensland ...with the Grand Prix excepted as that is held in Tamworth once a year. But I know that until your dog is desexed you will not be able to register it with ANKC.

As far as Golden Retrievers go, they can't compete until they are 18 months old & by then they would probably be desexed.

Edited September 27, 2016 by sheena

[Kavik]

I confess...I have not read through all of this post, so sorry if it has been mentioned before....but one good reason for having your dog desexed is that unless it is Registered with an ANKC recognised body, then it can't compete in ANKC dog sports as it needs to be desexed before it can go on the Associate Register & it needs to be on the AR before it can compete.

...that's interesting...especially if you want to compete with a Golden Retrievers where the risk of ligament injuries is dramatically increased for de-sexed dogs....it is not required if I register my dog with ADAA (TBC)...?...

Not sure with ADAA, but to compete in ADAA competitions you will need to travel to Queensland ...with the Grand Prix excepted as that is held in Tamworth once a year. But I know that until your dog is desexed you will not be able to register it with ANKC.

As far as Golden Retrievers go, they can't compete until they are 18 months old & by then they would probably be desexed.

There are ADAA competitions in NSW :)

Only dogs that are not able to be registered in another way go on Associate Register (ie crossbreeds or non registered purebreds).

Some breeds that have an alternate registry to ANKC can go on the Sporting Register and not need to be desexed to compete in sports. Eg Kelpies registered with WKC, Koolies registered with the Koolie club. I think there are a few sheepdog registeries too, which register on merit/ability rather than pedigree, so Willem could get a BC on Sporting Register through there if his dog had ability on sheep.

Edited September 27, 2016 by Kavik

[sheena]

I confess...I have not read through all of this post, so sorry if it has been mentioned before....but one good reason for having your dog desexed is that unless it is Registered with an ANKC recognised body, then it can't compete in ANKC dog sports as it needs to be desexed before it can go on the Associate Register & it needs to be on the AR before it can compete.

...that's interesting...especially if you want to compete with a Golden Retrievers where the risk of ligament injuries is dramatically increased for de-sexed dogs....it is not required if I register my dog with ADAA (TBC)...?...

Not sure with ADAA, but to compete in ADAA competitions you will need to travel to Queensland ...with the Grand Prix excepted as that is held in Tamworth once a year. But I know that until your dog is desexed you will not be able to register it with ANKC.

As far as Golden Retrievers go, they can't compete until they are 18 months old & by then they would probably be desexed.

There are ADAA competitions in NSW :)

Some breeds that have an alternate registry to ANKC can go on the Sporting Register and not need to be desexed to compete in sports. Eg Kelpies registered with WKC, Koolies registered with the Koolie club. I think there are a few sheepdog registeries too, which register on merit/ability rather than pedigree, so Willem could get a BC on Sporting Register through there if his dog had ability on sheep.

Not up my way there isn't :laugh: So to register your dog on the working dog register, I would have thought that you would still have had to have bought that dog from a WDR breeder & that it would come with WDR papers. Sorry to hijack the thread but I have a new dog in my class at agility. He is an 18 month old backyard bred BC...lovely dog but definately no papers. The owners didn't even know the correct name for his colour....they thought he was a golden BC. He is entire, simply because the owner thinks it's sissy to desex your male dog. I am going to have to break the news to them, that if they want to compete in ANKC sports, then he is going to have to be desexed.