Recall - Something 'special'

[persephone]

I dislike intensely dealing with in season bitches in a city ..it is tricky , and with so many dogs in small area.. the experience can be frustrating to all ! if I lived in a city - desexing would be my first choice!!

been there, done that - don't want to do it again ...

you might just trade one inconvenience for the other - 1 or 2 times per year a bitch on heat for spay incontinence all year long ...I always shake my head when I read on one of those de-sexing promoting websites that 'there is a small chance that this can happen' ....but when your actually read about spay incontinence than it suddenly it is a 'common problem' for spayed dogs...

In the bitches I have had speyed , only one developed it at a youngish age ..the rest have all been well into double figures, and it is easily managed with specific bedding etc :)

...depends, when you travel with your dog in the car, or someone else car, visiting friends etc. it can be quite stressful as you never know when it will happen...

depends on each lifestyle , doesn't it ? An absorbent mat or two, easily carried ..a dog who lies on its own mat ... no different to how I managed castrated dogs... the old girls here just had incontinence pads to sleep on when indoors , a bit of extra care taken with cleanliness ... simple.

[persephone]

and , I am one who thinks it is irresponsible to walk an in season bitch in areas where there are other dogs ......or to walk a bitch from her house along the streets and let her toilet - leaving a clear trail. ;)

It's fine to be confident in your OWN canine - and their responses - it's everyone else you need to worry about- and it is unfair .

[Simply Grand]

and , I am one who thinks it is irresponsible to walk an in season bitch in areas where there are other dogs ......or to walk a bitch from her house along the streets and let her toilet - leaving a clear trail. ;)

It's fine to be confident in your OWN canine - and their responses - it's everyone else you need to worry about- and it is unfair .

I've seen fights between other dogs start when an in season bitch has been brought to a dog park, even if the bitch has left and the smell is still there.

When I take Quinn out when she's in season I drive her somewhere where we are unlikely to run into other dogs, although she actually gets pretty lazy so needs less exercise than usual.

And I've never noticed her losing any of her normal behaviour or obedience, still responds to all my cues etc

[Simply Grand]

I think the thing with desexing is it comes down to responsibility. Truly responsible owners who research and learn and put in effort are of course quite capable of managing entire dogs without behaviour issues, oops litters or breeding with no clue what they are doing. Those are generally the same owners who have looked into the pros and cons of desexing and don't just desex at six months because "that's what you do".

However many many many pet owners are not that responsible. You're kidding yourself if you think most people are willing and able to manage entire dogs. Most people can't or won't properly manage their desexed dogs, so adding a trail of unplanned for, poorly bred puppies that go to more irresponsible homes or get dumped with pounds and rescues isn't helping anything.

In an ideal world of rainbows and sparkles everyone who has a pet would be responsible and give it perfect health, training, welfare and management but it just doesn't happen.

Willem, in another thread you said you aren't too worried about blatantly aggressive dogs because surely their owners arent idiots and manage them properly. I can tell you plenty of owners of aggressive dogs do nothing of the sort, just the other day someone brought a dog to the dog park that not only had instigated fights there before but was clearly way over-aroused before they even got in the gate, got in one fight almost immediately then seriously attacked another dog, shattering its leg and requiring $6000 worth of surgery. The attacking dog's owner did nothing to prevent or stop the attack and said the old "he's never done that before" then said the dog, an entire male, had just been mated for the first time the day before.

That's the reality of many many pet dog owners. And now that aggressive dog with a clueless owner has been bred from and will produce puppies that may well have a tendency towards aggression, who will be homed by breeders who clearly aren't responsible and are therefore unlikely to provide responsible guidance to the puppy owners, therefore starting the whole cycle again.

Edited September 26, 2016 by Simply Grand

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

My dog has spey incontinence now. So she's on medication for it.

Letting her drip a bit - causes other problems. Like 4am slurp fests and inflamation.

I think entire dogs - just have another distraction.

I suspect if my dog wasn't desexed - she'd still find hot chippies and fresh cooked sausages way more exciting than anything the boys had to offer.

personally I don't like the mess of seasons. I'd have desexed me if I thought my bones wouldn't suffer more in old age.

[Xyz]

Oh surprise surprise, Willem is pushing his 'do not desex' agenda...

[Willem]

and , I am one who thinks it is irresponsible to walk an in season bitch in areas where there are other dogs ......or to walk a bitch from her house along the streets and let her toilet - leaving a clear trail. ;)

It's fine to be confident in your OWN canine - and their responses - it's everyone else you need to worry about- and it is unfair .

...I don't get the last bit...it sounds like it is unfair that I train my dog so it is well behaved , and if other owners don't train their dogs and let them stray it is my fault?

[Willem]

Oh surprise surprise, Willem is pushing his 'do not desex' agenda...

...seems someone has to do it as the RSPCA is too busy because they have to euthanize all the dogs with behaviour issues...

ETA: ...now that is really interesting stuff: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/45251733_Behavioral_Reasons_for_Relinquishment_of_Dogs_and_Cats_to_12_Shelters ...some quotes:

...The NCPPSP RegionalShelter Study found that behavioral problems, including aggression toward people or nonhuman animals, were the most frequently given reasons for canine relinquishment...

and

...Neutered female dogs and cats and neutered male dogs were more frequent in the behavioral category of relinquishment.

Edited September 26, 2016 by Willem

[Willem]

@ SG: look, I don't 'provoke' other dogs / owners as I don't visit dog parks and the like when she is on heat (hence also no official obedience or agility classes), however, I will fight for my right to walk my trained dog and won't put her in solitary confinement if she is on heat independent whether other owners don't train their dogs and let them stray. In a way it is easy for me to stick to this as I'm not afraid of other dogs (never was) and while I tried hard I never got seriously bitten - I understand that this is not a given for other people and that they will struggle with potential consequences if they - or their dogs - would get intimidated by straying dogs.

What I don't understand is that we obviously surrender to all these ignorant dog owners out there, and instead of making obedience training mandatory to address the real problem we pushing mandatory de-sexing...

[persephone]

and , I am one who thinks it is irresponsible to walk an in season bitch in areas where there are other dogs ......or to walk a bitch from her house along the streets and let her toilet - leaving a clear trail. ;)

It's fine to be confident in your OWN canine - and their responses - it's everyone else you need to worry about- and it is unfair .

...I don't get the last bit...it sounds like it is unfair that I train my dog so it is well behaved , and if other owners don't train their dogs and let them stray it is my fault?

it's unfair on the other dogs who have not as much control ... and have to have a battle with their hormones .

[Willem]

and , I am one who thinks it is irresponsible to walk an in season bitch in areas where there are other dogs ......or to walk a bitch from her house along the streets and let her toilet - leaving a clear trail. ;)

It's fine to be confident in your OWN canine - and their responses - it's everyone else you need to worry about- and it is unfair .

...I don't get the last bit...it sounds like it is unfair that I train my dog so it is well behaved , and if other owners don't train their dogs and let them stray it is my fault?

it's unfair on the other dogs who have not as much control ... and have to have a battle with their hormones .

...would you say the same if someone is walking his/her toy poodle and it gets ripped apart from a dog that couldn't control its prey drive as it wasn't properly trained?....poor aggressor that had a battle with his hormones?

[persephone]

and , I am one who thinks it is irresponsible to walk an in season bitch in areas where there are other dogs ......or to walk a bitch from her house along the streets and let her toilet - leaving a clear trail. ;)

It's fine to be confident in your OWN canine - and their responses - it's everyone else you need to worry about- and it is unfair .

...I don't get the last bit...it sounds like it is unfair that I train my dog so it is well behaved , and if other owners don't train their dogs and let them stray it is my fault?

it's unfair on the other dogs who have not as much control ... and have to have a battle with their hormones .

...would you say the same if someone is walking his/her toy poodle and it gets ripped apart from a dog that couldn't control its prey drive as it wasn't properly trained?....poor aggressor that had a battle with his hormones?

it is a different scenario in my mind .... the scents /tastes of a bitch in season and the resultant effects/behaviour are different to prey drive - and no, I am not prepared to be educated :p

Both dogs are of course behaving as their instincts dictate , and frustration is frustration

[Simply Grand]

@ SG: look, I don't 'provoke' other dogs / owners as I don't visit dog parks and the like when she is on heat (hence also no official obedience or agility classes), however, I will fight for my right to walk my trained dog and won't put her in solitary confinement if she is on heat independent whether other owners don't train their dogs and let them stray. In a way it is easy for me to stick to this as I'm not afraid of other dogs (never was) and while I tried hard I never got seriously bitten - I understand that this is not a given for other people and that they will struggle with potential consequences if they - or their dogs - would get intimidated by straying dogs.

What I don't understand is that we obviously surrender to all these ignorant dog owners out there, and instead of making obedience training mandatory to address the real problem we pushing mandatory de-sexing...

Neither perse nor I said said you did Willem. We were agreeing with each other that there can be impacts of bitches in season being out in areas other dogs frequent, beyond the impact on the individual bitch and their owner.

Mandatory obedience training, if even possible to implement, would not solve the issue of accidental, unplanned, poorly planned, unwanted etc etc etc litters. A beautifully trained bitch pottering in her yard while in season can still be mated by a beautifully trained entire male who jumps the fence.

[persephone]

A beautifully trained bitch pottering in her yard while in season can still be mated by a beautifully trained entire male who jumps the fence.

or wrecks the fence one day while owners are away ;)

yes.

[persephone]

Ahh, Willem - you have every right to walk an in season bitch - same as you have every right to go to work whilst in the grip of the flu, or a gastro bug .. that doesn't mean you HAVE to ;)

[BarbedWire]

A beautifully trained bitch pottering in her yard while in season can still be mated by a beautifully trained entire male who jumps the fence.

And the owner of the bitch would be left to deal with the oops litter.

[Xyz]

Oh surprise surprise, Willem is pushing his 'do not desex' agenda...

...seems someone has to do it as the RSPCA is too busy because they have to euthanize all the dogs with behaviour issues...

ETA: ...now that is really interesting stuff: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/45251733_Behavioral_Reasons_for_Relinquishment_of_Dogs_and_Cats_to_12_Shelters ...some quotes:

...The NCPPSP RegionalShelter Study found that behavioral problems, including aggression toward people or nonhuman animals, were the most frequently given reasons for canine relinquishment...

and

...Neutered female dogs and cats and neutered male dogs were more frequent in the behavioral category of relinquishment.

Oh good, 16 year old 'science'.

Good googling.....

[Simply Grand]

Willem, is it just mandatory/encouragement of desexing you have an issue with or all desexing? Do you think people should be leaving dogs entire as a general rule, with desexing only done in certain circumstances?

[m-j]

Oh surprise surprise, Willem is pushing his 'do not desex' agenda...

...seems someone has to do it as the RSPCA is too busy because they have to euthanize all the dogs with behaviour issues...

ETA: ...now that is really interesting stuff: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/45251733_Behavioral_Reasons_for_Relinquishment_of_Dogs_and_Cats_to_12_Shelters ...some quotes:

...The NCPPSP RegionalShelter Study found that behavioral problems, including aggression toward people or nonhuman animals, were the most frequently given reasons for canine relinquishment...

and

...Neutered female dogs and cats and neutered male dogs were more frequent in the behavioral category of relinquishment.

Yes but if their parents had been desexed non of them would have ended up in the shelters.

Edited September 26, 2016 by m-j

[The Spotted Devil]

Oh surprise surprise, Willem is pushing his 'do not desex' agenda...

...seems someone has to do it as the RSPCA is too busy because they have to euthanize all the dogs with behaviour issues...

ETA: ...now that is really interesting stuff: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/45251733_Behavioral_Reasons_for_Relinquishment_of_Dogs_and_Cats_to_12_Shelters ...some quotes:

...The NCPPSP RegionalShelter Study found that behavioral problems, including aggression toward people or nonhuman animals, were the most frequently given reasons for canine relinquishment...

and

...Neutered female dogs and cats and neutered male dogs were more frequent in the behavioral category of relinquishment.

Oh good, 16 year old 'science'.

Good googling.....

Not to me mention correlation vs causation.