Recall - Something 'special'

[m-j]

o.k....here is the (first) clue:....Pavlov might help you :)

...so it has something to do with my pet hate ....de-sexing respectively if you leave them entire....

Did we work it out yet?

All I've got is she recalled super the last time but you whistled instead of using the whistle, got the same response both ways

nope, ...the 'speciality' (for some people) is that her behaviour respectively response to my recall (whether I use a whistle, call her or just whistle) is - like always - very good, even though.... :)

....and it has something to do with her unchanged responsive behaviour ...

Was there something else in the cow paddock? There appeared to be a red object. A fox? Hard to tell with the quality of the video.

Where did you see it? If there was she didn't show much interest in it.

...no, nothing else, especially no other dogs....

ETA:...all clues are now out there, you just have to put 1 and 1 together....

...no other dogs - not that the presence of other dog would change here response to my cues much, but the other dogs might be not so well trained...

so what could happen to an entire bitch where a lot of people think that it turns them into some kind of monsters, make them totally disobedient, wipes out all the reflexes you trained over years to override all kind of drives, and let them take off straight away to follow their instincts if you risk to let them run off-leash?

HUH??? What difference does being entire make, none that I noticed over the years, unless they are actually ovulating and there is a male dog there that they think a suitable candidate to be a dad but if they are well conditioned they will respond they do it without thinking, probably think damn these conditioned responses when you remove them from the male tho, after a bit of experience with the scenario I just mentioned they might go nah the last few times I did this I couldn't do what I wanted to do, unless their food drive overrides reproducing, which in the right conditions i.e. the dog is hungry it will, Maslow's

hierarchy of need.... sorry I still don't get what is so special??

Edited September 26, 2016 by m-j

[persephone]

Is that it, Willem ?

Our working sheep/goat dogs are all entire .. and the bitches work with just as much concentration/skill when they are in season . All it usually means here is that it's a girls' day out ..boys stay home - though the older boy can be easily voice controlled if needs be...

[Willem]

…when we had the problem with our dog where we couldn’t get her focus when other dogs where around because it got her in a very aroused state (it was enough a dog head appeared on the horizon to make her going nuts), I started to train her with the flirt pole. At the beginning it was more a testing for getting her focus and burning energy, but later I noticed that this was an excellent exercise to train her in a controlled environment when she was in an aroused state….so I used it also to train the basic obedience cues (sit, drop, stand, recalls…place….) when she was high aroused…and it worked.

It worked so well, that approx. a year later I can do the passing exercise with nearly any other dog in the obedience training without losing her focus, despite that her strong desire to run and play with other dogs is still there – she just learned due to the training in an aroused state to control it and only does it if she is allowed to do so.

Now, there is – unfortunately – not much scientific knowledge about what parameters change these behaviour and / or emotional states and how exactly it all works together, however we know a few fragments that allows to jump to conclusions. E.g. we know that in stress situation the adrenaline level is up, causing mammals to become less pain sensitive and increase overall performance, and we know – roughly – how the thyroid level effects the mood. We know that the testosterone level increases significantly in a young growing dog and that it will reach a peak after 6 to 18 month (approx., depending on individual dog and breed) – if we don't cut his balls off before it happens.

We know that the hormone levels various over times and for different development periods, some hormones level will change even through the day. Hence I think it is fair to say that we have to deal with quite complex hormone patterns that are responsible for the different drives and behaviours in our dogs. They change all the time, one hormone level goes up, the other decreases, following a perfect program designed by thousands of years of evolution. If we interfere with this program without even knowing the details, we risk negative impacts regarding their immune system, reproductive system and consequently normal behaviour.

I think it is also fair to say, that those hormone patterns will vary more during the development of a young dog compared to a matured dog when the different systems emphasise more on maintaining the status quo and are less challenged with setting up a growing organism for reproduction respectively survival. One day the scientists will come up with a ‘new’ discovery where they link the different fear phases in a dog to specific hormone patterns and they will tell you exactly the particular concentration of each hormone responsible for the particular state. While this will add details and will be acknowledged as a scientific evidence and big achievement – I think we can recognise these connections already due to knowledge available right now.

We also know that a dog that was trained in isolation – e.g. in a backyard – where it showed perfect obedience will fail in an environment with new triggers that causes the hormone pattern to change.

So what can we take from this?....

For me it seems to be pretty clear that if we want that a dog becomes a well behaved companion dog, we have to do the training for all these different hormone patterns. Often dog owners visit puppy schools and then a few month obedience classes, and because the dog becomes a well behaved dog they think that’s enough. Half a year later and with the concentration of testosterone doubled in the blood the dog behaves (of course he does!!!) total different, might get aggressive, and the changed behaviour is addressed with cutting the balls off. It is not the dogs fault! …the dog just wasn’t trained for this changing hormone pattern.

Sooooo ….ongoing training is the key.

What about entire bitches on heat? ….some dog owners will think OMG, solitary confinement for the next 3 weeks, and suddenly a dog used to daily exercises and walks gets locked away for 3 weeks. Of course the dog gets frustrated and will come up with all kind of unwanted behaviours, not necessarily linked to the fact that she is on heat, but to the lack of exercises and interference with the environment she was used to. Many dog owners will link all these unwanted behaviours to her heat cycle, plus they will miss the chance to train the dog for this new hormone pattern.

And that’s the purpose of this video clip, to demonstrate that ongoing training, no matter in what kind of state the dog is, is the key for a well behaved dog.

She has a high prey drive, but she doesn’t chase the bull – if I would say ‘push’ or ‘take it’ instead of ‘drop’, her behaviour would be totally different; however, I set her up for this scenario hence she has no problems to control herself and comes happily when recalled, despite that this strong prey drive is still there - and can be triggered any time via the right cue!

Now she is in heat, but in a way it is just another hormone pattern, and being setup for this specific pattern she won’t run off or behaves differently. I know a dog owner of an entire male dogs and we could do the passing exercise in obedience - because both dogs have been trained to do so.

Now, before I duck for cover: I’m fully aware that not every dog is trained like this, hence there are some rules I adopt when she is in heat, e.g.

• Limiting contacts to dogs respectively only allow contacts with dogs which are known to be trained, or de-sexed, or females, including supervision all the time while these dogs are in the vicinity.
  
• No official obedience or agility classes – training happens only at home or while walking when no other dogs are around.
  
• Make sure gates and doors are closed at home all times, inspect fence daily.
  
• ...common sense....
  

But…IMHO, there is no substitute for training for a companion dog, no matter in which state the dog currently is.

[fbaudry]

All this hype for that?

Coming accross a roaming entire male dog would have made for an interesting scenario. Otherwise, meh

[Willem]

Is that it, Willem ?

Our working sheep/goat dogs are all entire .. and the bitches work with just as much concentration/skill when they are in season . All it usually means here is that it's a girls' day out ..boys stay home - though the older boy can be easily voice controlled if needs be...

yep, that's it...it is normal for you and dog owners that have experience with entire dogs, but for a lot of dog owners brainwashed by all these different de-sexing campaigns it is unfortunately not...

[Pjrt]

Seriously did no one else notice the creepy smiley face cloud in the end part of the video!

[Willem]

All this hype for that?

Coming accross a roaming entire male dog would have made for an interesting scenario. Otherwise, meh

why?...I recall her, put her on the leash ...and that's it...

[Willem]

Seriously did no one else notice the creepy smiley face cloud in the end part of the video!

...I photoshoped this :)

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

she just learned due to the training in an aroused state to control it and only does it if she is allowed to do so.

lemme see - Susan Garrett has been working on pushing out the boundary of "too aroused to respond" for hmm, 20+ years now. And you've just figured it out?

Got nothing to do with whether your dog is on heat or not. Tho other male dogs who are excited by this and not so obedient or able to work when excited may stuff everything up. literally.

Ie you can be the best driver but some other nut case can still get you.

[Willem]

o.k....here is the (first) clue:....Pavlov might help you :)

...so it has something to do with my pet hate ....de-sexing respectively if you leave them entire....

Did we work it out yet?

All I've got is she recalled super the last time but you whistled instead of using the whistle, got the same response both ways

nope, ...the 'speciality' (for some people) is that her behaviour respectively response to my recall (whether I use a whistle, call her or just whistle) is - like always - very good, even though.... :)

....and it has something to do with her unchanged responsive behaviour ...

Was there something else in the cow paddock? There appeared to be a red object. A fox? Hard to tell with the quality of the video.

Where did you see it? If there was she didn't show much interest in it.

...no, nothing else, especially no other dogs....

ETA:...all clues are now out there, you just have to put 1 and 1 together....

...no other dogs - not that the presence of other dog would change here response to my cues much, but the other dogs might be not so well trained...

so what could happen to an entire bitch where a lot of people think that it turns them into some kind of monsters, make them totally disobedient, wipes out all the reflexes you trained over years to override all kind of drives, and let them take off straight away to follow their instincts if you risk to let them run off-leash?

HUH??? What difference does being entire make, none that I noticed over the years, unless they are actually ovulating and there is a male dog there that they think a suitable candidate to be a dad but if they are well conditioned they will respond they do it without thinking, probably think damn these conditioned responses when you remove them from the male tho, after a bit of experience with the scenario I just mentioned they might go nah the last few times I did this I couldn't do what I wanted to do, unless their food drive overrides reproducing, which in the right conditions i.e. the dog is hungry it will, Maslow's

hierarchy of need.... sorry I still don't get what is so special??

that's the point,... nothing special...for dog owners used to entire dogs, but for others it's a OMG-MUST-BE-FIXED scenario...

[Willem]

she just learned due to the training in an aroused state to control it and only does it if she is allowed to do so.

lemme see - Susan Garrett has been working on pushing out the boundary of "too aroused to respond" for hmm, 20+ years now. And you've just figured it out?

Got nothing to do with whether your dog is on heat or not. Tho other male dogs who are excited by this and not so obedient or able to work when excited may stuff everything up. literally.

Ie you can be the best driver but some other nut case can still get you.

you should know in the meanwhile that I'm a pretty slow learner :) ....

ETA: ...well, those dogs would find themselves tethered to the fence via my spare leash and a carabiner in no time ready to get picked up by the council if they would be too persistent.

Edited September 26, 2016 by Willem

[JulesP]

Err no one here is going to find that even slightly 'special'. You do realise you are on a purebred dog forum that supports showing and breeding?

[m-j]

I have had many desexed dogs also, don't see that they are that screwed up either even when being entire for several years and then desexed. I think it is more important to desex for the general dog owner (it's no secret that heaps are very irresponsible)as it prevents unwanted pups and pups that aren't looked after properly which can really do a dog's head in. Ok so the tactics used to achieve this may not be so factual but if it works for the greater good so be it.

[persephone]

I dislike intensely dealing with in season bitches in a city ..it is tricky , and with so many dogs in small area.. the experience can be frustrating to all ! if I lived in a city - desexing would be my first choice!!

been there, done that - don't want to do it again ...

[Willem]

I dislike intensely dealing with in season bitches in a city ..it is tricky , and with so many dogs in small area.. the experience can be frustrating to all ! if I lived in a city - desexing would be my first choice!!

been there, done that - don't want to do it again ...

you might just trade one inconvenience for the other - 1 or 2 times per year a bitch on heat for spay incontinence all year long ...I always shake my head when I read on one of those de-sexing promoting websites that 'there is a small chance that this can happen' ....but when your actually read about spay incontinence than it suddenly it is a 'common problem' for spayed dogs...

[Willem]

Err no one here is going to find that even slightly 'special'. You do realise you are on a purebred dog forum that supports showing and breeding?

..well, I recall a thread where I was called names from a few members here when I mentioned that I walked my dog even though when she is on heat...

I understand that de-sexing can be one tool in the box for good dog management, and in special scenarios it can add quality to a dog's live, however, IMO the public presentation is IMO pretty one-sided and misinforming....and many people fall into this trap just to struggle later with all the unwanted consequences. Hence I thought demonstrating that dogs in heat (and in most other states) are still normal dogs via the footage might help some dog owners to make a more balanced decision.

Unfortunately some authorities and organisations push the 'mandatory de-sexing approach' instead of a 'mandatory obedience training approach' for dog owners. While both of these options might be hard to enforce anyway, I think the later one is much smarter and would achieve by far the better results.

[persephone]

I dislike intensely dealing with in season bitches in a city ..it is tricky , and with so many dogs in small area.. the experience can be frustrating to all ! if I lived in a city - desexing would be my first choice!!

been there, done that - don't want to do it again ...

you might just trade one inconvenience for the other - 1 or 2 times per year a bitch on heat for spay incontinence all year long ...I always shake my head when I read on one of those de-sexing promoting websites that 'there is a small chance that this can happen' ....but when your actually read about spay incontinence than it suddenly it is a 'common problem' for spayed dogs...

In the bitches I have had speyed , only one developed it at a youngish age ..the rest have all been well into double figures, and it is easily managed with specific bedding etc :)

[Willem]

I dislike intensely dealing with in season bitches in a city ..it is tricky , and with so many dogs in small area.. the experience can be frustrating to all ! if I lived in a city - desexing would be my first choice!!

been there, done that - don't want to do it again ...

you might just trade one inconvenience for the other - 1 or 2 times per year a bitch on heat for spay incontinence all year long ...I always shake my head when I read on one of those de-sexing promoting websites that 'there is a small chance that this can happen' ....but when your actually read about spay incontinence than it suddenly it is a 'common problem' for spayed dogs...

In the bitches I have had speyed , only one developed it at a youngish age ..the rest have all been well into double figures, and it is easily managed with specific bedding etc :)

...depends, when you travel with your dog in the car, or someone else car, visiting friends etc. it can be quite stressful as you never know when it will happen...

[Pjrt]

I'm so on the fence with the desexing craze. Personally I prefer entire animals. My own choice where possible is to desex in late middle age approx 8 to 10 Yrs. I see quite a few very old dogs struggle with the procedure when it had to be done as an emergency or treatment late in life. So I'd prefer to keep them entire for the majority of their live and desex as a preventive health measure before they get too old.

On the other hand as a dog groomer handling entire dogs is no fun at all really. Entire boys are so much more precious about being handled down stairs. I don't care what anyone professes as research or science 30+ yrs clipping dogs ALL the entire boys are not as easy with Bri g handled down there as the desexed ones! And trying to groom bitches in season is just yucky as well as them either getting freaky or over stimulated by handling down there depending what stage they're at. Infinitely easier and nicer handling desexed pets in the salon

So yeah on the fence. I'd rather own entire animals but I'd rather handle desexed ones.

And let's face it imagine all the next level of crazy at all the suburban dogs parks if the bulk were entire! I get that's all about training and owner management but most folks really don't handle yhem adequately as it is.

[m-j]

Err no one here is going to find that even slightly 'special'. You do realise you are on a purebred dog forum that supports showing and breeding?

..well, I recall a thread where I was called names from a few members here when I mentioned that I walked my dog even though when she is on heat...

I understand that de-sexing can be one tool in the box for good dog management, and in special scenarios it can add quality to a dog's live, however, IMO the public presentation is IMO pretty one-sided and misinforming....and many people fall into this trap just to struggle later with all the unwanted consequences. Hence I thought demonstrating that dogs in heat (and in most other states) are still normal dogs via the footage might help some dog owners to make a more balanced decision.

Unfortunately some authorities and organisations push the 'mandatory de-sexing approach' instead of a 'mandatory obedience training approach' for dog owners. While both of these options might be hard to enforce anyway, I think the later one is much smarter and would achieve by far the better results.

I have only had two dogs with incontinence know of only one other but I've seen a heap of pups that were oops litters and the results from those oops litters in some cases were quite sad, in my mind doesn't even compare.

I agree with the mandatory training but it is far more time consuming and as you said who's going to police it as people who want to come to training without being forced don't keep it up.

Women I know that have been desexed couldn't be happier because all the issues associated with hormone changes are gone. If I had to have another child I would definitely opt for a surrogate mother as I turned into a human version of Cujo in the first trimester of both pregnancies I didn't like myself and way I responded to normal situations but I couldn't help myself even after 36 years of conditioning on how to react/behave in those situations.