What Would You Do?

[Willem]

Willem, about that 'dominance' stuff, here's some science-based information for you: http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org

...humping can just be a playful - normal - behaviour between dogs, however, sometimes it can grow in a behavior where the dog dictates the ranking and verifies / maintain the ranking by humping others. The OP mentions that there are signs of aggression when the 'victim' tries to stop the dog from doing it; it is not that the poor guy tries to dominate the dog - the dog dominates the poor guy...and this is something that is not only annoying and humiliating, but can be also very dangerous.

There are clear signs that this is more than 'playing': the dog picked the weakest guy (new job, young, unsure what to do...his body language will give it away) and shows aggression - this is not acceptable. And it is not the job of the victim to train the dog - that's the responsibility of the owner. If the owner doesn't get the message, the victim has all the rights to defend himself using aversives or what so ever...it is not about training, it is about self-defense!

we had just a case where a tradie was attacked by 3 dogs...don't wait till it is too late and there is another negative headline...

[Two Best Dogs!]

He really should talk to his bosses about it. Then if they're halfway decent bosses they should talk to the client about locking the dog up while the workers are on site. The owner letting that dog act like that is a lawsuit waiting to happen!

He wouldn't be rocking the boat overly, make sure he frames it as a learning type question. "The dog keeps attacking my legs and tripping me, what should I do" to the boss could hopefully lead to the boss going to the client "your dog is slowing the work, please lock it up".

Otherwise I would go with the throwing treats away from him for the dog to go after as a destraction. Since it's not his dog, he can't really train it without overstepping boundaries and it'd be dangerous considering its behaviour. I would certainly NOT go for a collar grab! Strange, potentially aggressive dog? Very dangerous.

[Papillon Kisses]

In any case he certainly should not be grabbing the collar or punishing the dog (using 'aversives') that's a great way to escalate the aggression and be bitten. http://www.ava.com.au/public/about-pets/polite-pets-month/resources/debunking-dominance-dogs

I agree with those who say he needs to talk to the boss. The boss and the home owner need to provide a safe workplace. Perhaps your son could talk with other workers about it and see what they say? Perhaps they could speak to the boss about it together?

[Willem]

In any case he certainly should not be grabbing the collar or punishing the dog (using 'aversives') that's a great way to escalate the aggression and be bitten. http://www.ava.com.au/public/about-pets/polite-pets-month/resources/debunking-dominance-dogs

I agree with those who say he needs to talk to the boss. The boss and the home owner need to provide a safe workplace. Perhaps your son could talk with other workers about it and see what they say? Perhaps they could speak to the boss about it together?

it is not about punishing the dog (any training, with or without punishment would be the responsibility of the owner), but about self-defense, and that does - IMHO - justifies any aversives if required. If the guy is working on this site, he doesn't have to accept that a dogs is humping him if he doesn't want it. If the owner doesn't respond to the complaints, the next time the dog is humping the guy - and the guy can't help himself otherwise - give the dog a good dose of pepper spray into the mouth and the guy won't see the dog again. It might be a big drawback for the future training of the dog, but that's the responsibility of the owner, not the victim that just defended himself.

[Tara and Sam]

Hi Boss / name , I think we might have a problem with the dog around when we trying to do our job , it has been showing some signs of aggression , humping etc and this may end up being a concern if the dog makes contact with someone , maybe the dog could be restrained for all concerned to avoid a nasty situation for all

Maybe your son could say something similar to this short and simple but point out it could be a nasty situation for boss and owner

I do think it needs to be bought to attention to the boss

[Simply Grand]

What Tara & Sam says. I think it's his only option.

You cannot go into someone else's house in this situation and start using aversives, or even giving food or using training techniques without the owner's permission. Even though the owner is being an irresponsible idiot.

Not to mention messing around with trying techniques with a dog that has already tried to bite is asking for your son to get hurt

[Willem]

What Tara & Sam says. I think it's his only option.

You cannot go into someone else's house in this situation and start using aversives, or even giving food or using training techniques without the owner's permission. Even though the owner is being an irresponsible idiot.

Not to mention messing around with trying techniques with a dog that has already tried to bite is asking for your son to get hurt

...so you think the tradie who was attacked by the 3 dogs should have ask the owner first whether it is ok that he defend himself?....whether it is biting or humping, both are not acceptable behaviours, and as long as there is no trespassing, IMO anyone has the right to defend himself.

[Simply Grand]

What Tara & Sam says. I think it's his only option.

You cannot go into someone else's house in this situation and start using aversives, or even giving food or using training techniques without the owner's permission. Even though the owner is being an irresponsible idiot.

Not to mention messing around with trying techniques with a dog that has already tried to bite is asking for your son to get hurt

...so you think the tradie who was attacked by the 3 dogs should have ask the owner first whether it is ok that he defend himself?....whether it is biting or humping, both are not acceptable behaviours, and as long as there is no trespassing, IMO anyone has the right to defend himself.

No but that's a perfect example of why bosses need to require dogs be contained or restrained when their crews are on site, so they aren't risking that happening!!

[DakotaJ]

My son is a carpenter who, not long ago, was employed erecting Granny Flats. His employer insisted that all the owners dogs be contained while his workers were on the site, and also that all excretia be removed from the site (the backyard) before work commenced each morning. It is an OHS issue. The workers on the site should be protected.

Also the safety of the dog is a concern, what if a gate or the door is left open and the dog escapes ? Who is to blame then ?

Seems like bad workplace practises to me and the owner should be asked to restrain the dog. It is a very hard position your son is in, as a more senior employee, and his boss, should never have allowed this situation to happen . He is well within his rights to ask to have the dog restrained while they are on the site.

Edited September 20, 2016 by DakotaJ

[westiemum]

For heavens sake, there is an apprentice at risk here - and probably others (e.g. those who try to get the dog off).

Do exactly what Tara and Sam said and go to the boss. The boss is going to be really really upset if this ends not only in a headline, but with an apprentice with bad bites or worse in hospital, in trouble with the apprenticeship board (or whatever its called in Tas) and with work cover after no-one told him. This could turn really nasty for both apprentice and the boss.

And if the owner won't restrain the dog then the boss needs to remove his crew. He has an inalienable duty of care to his staff - but he deserves to know of the risk in the first place.

Edited September 20, 2016 by westiemum

[Tara and Sam]

Just gone back and reread original Op post and also would like to say

What if son never mentioned it to boss and someone was bitten Boss man could go right off that nobody told ( rocked the boat ) and let him know , maybe the boss would appreciate he knows about this so he can prevent a issue ariseing from it all

If son gets on well with boss , then I would presume he would like to know and probally thank your son for alerting him to it

Fellow worker should also let know boss of the incident

I can understanfd son being bit worried about it , but should be proud of himself by alerting boss of what can / could be very nasty situation

[ellz]

I've had a chat with him and shown him this thread.

They were at a different worksite today but I think he's going to mention the situation to his boss and ask him to deal with it when they are around the corner on the other worksite tomorrow.

As he said, a loose dog is dangerous for lots of reasons and what if he were scared of dogs in general or had a really bad allergy to dogs? I'm happy that he has obviously been thinking things through and understands the need for his safety and that of his colleagues.

He's not a small boy (rising 6'2 and 85kg) and is a State rugby representative, so not a weakling, but he also knows better than to attempt to manhandle an unfamiliar dog. He also knows the difference between goofy dog play and attempted dominance and aggressive overtures and has seen first hand situations where things have escalated badly so he wouldn't dream of attempting to train someone else's dog.

I did actually manage to see the dog today (in action at the gate) and I believe what I saw was a Golden Retriever X Poodle, and not a small one either.

I'm meeting with the Apprenticeship Board rep tomorrow to sign his paperwork for the apprenticeship so I might get an opportunity to ask some benign questions about what to do in various situations in order to act "by the book".

In the meantime, he has pigs ears, vege snouts and a packet of Schmackos in his lunch bag. He commented that no matter how hungry he got, he wouldn't be tempted ????????

[Simply Grand]

Good on him ellz. I really hope his boss is understanding and responsive. If I was his boss I'd be thrilled to have an apprentice sensible enough to identify serious OH&S issues and raise them in a calm and professional manner.

[m-j]

If he is really concerned about rocking the boat (some bosses wouldn't like upsetting the client even though it is an WHS issue) he could arm himself with a pocket full of treats, that can be thrown out in scatter rather than a long lasting treat as the dog may put himself in the way and not be happy to move and that could place them in even greater risk of being bitten. Plus the treats can be given for behaviour that is desirable i.e. just being there, not harassing it can be a safe way of moving the dog around where they want the dog to go is where they throw the treat. If the owner is one of those idiots that likes their dog pushing people around throwing it treats may motivate him to get it away from him as they don't want their dog made "soft". The treats must be thrown behind the dog that way it will be inclined to stand back rather than close as they learn that there is no point standing close as the treat is always thrown behind. If the dog harasses him because the treats are on him he can put them somewhere the dog can't access them, but he can.

[Simply Grand]

In any case he certainly should not be grabbing the collar or punishing the dog (using 'aversives') that's a great way to escalate the aggression and be bitten. http://www.ava.com.au/public/about-pets/polite-pets-month/resources/debunking-dominance-dogs

I agree with those who say he needs to talk to the boss. The boss and the home owner need to provide a safe workplace. Perhaps your son could talk with other workers about it and see what they say? Perhaps they could speak to the boss about it together?

it is not about punishing the dog (any training, with or without punishment would be the responsibility of the owner), but about self-defense, and that does - IMHO - justifies any aversives if required. If the guy is working on this site, he doesn't have to accept that a dogs is humping him if he doesn't want it. If the owner doesn't respond to the complaints, the next time the dog is humping the guy - and the guy can't help himself otherwise - give the dog a good dose of pepper spray into the mouth and the guy won't see the dog again. It might be a big drawback for the future training of the dog, but that's the responsibility of the owner, not the victim that just defended himself.

I didn't even read this comment of yours before Willem but I can't believe you are advocating pepper spraying the dog in the mouth in this situation. First, presumably if the boss doesn't know about this issue the owners don't either and therefore haven't even had a chance to address it, secondly pepper spraying a dog, particularly in its own home could easily end up in an animal cruelty charge (if someone did that to mine without alerting me that the dog was behaving inappropriately, unless they were in the middle of being seriously attacked, I'd be pursuing it hard and sueing if possible), thirdly I don't think pepper spray is legal for civilians so there's the risk of charges for that, fourthly, pepper spray in the mouth could do a whole lot more than "set back the dog's training", it could kill it if the throat swelled and prevented breathing, and finally what a great way to escalate the situation with a dog already showing aggression.

Fortunately ellz and son are far to sensible to listen to such a dumb idea.

[Willem]

In any case he certainly should not be grabbing the collar or punishing the dog (using 'aversives') that's a great way to escalate the aggression and be bitten. http://www.ava.com.au/public/about-pets/polite-pets-month/resources/debunking-dominance-dogs

I agree with those who say he needs to talk to the boss. The boss and the home owner need to provide a safe workplace. Perhaps your son could talk with other workers about it and see what they say? Perhaps they could speak to the boss about it together?

it is not about punishing the dog (any training, with or without punishment would be the responsibility of the owner), but about self-defense, and that does - IMHO - justifies any aversives if required. If the guy is working on this site, he doesn't have to accept that a dogs is humping him if he doesn't want it. If the owner doesn't respond to the complaints, the next time the dog is humping the guy - and the guy can't help himself otherwise - give the dog a good dose of pepper spray into the mouth and the guy won't see the dog again. It might be a big drawback for the future training of the dog, but that's the responsibility of the owner, not the victim that just defended himself.

I didn't even read this comment of yours before Willem but I can't believe you are advocating pepper spraying the dog in the mouth in this situation. First, presumably if the boss doesn't know about this issue the owners don't either and therefore haven't even had a chance to address it, secondly pepper spraying a dog, particularly in its own home could easily end up in an animal cruelty charge (if someone did that to mine without alerting me that the dog was behaving inappropriately, unless they were in the middle of being seriously attacked, I'd be pursuing it hard and sueing if possible), thirdly I don't think pepper spray is legal for civilians so there's the risk of charges for that, fourthly, pepper spray in the mouth could do a whole lot more than "set back the dog's training", it could kill it if the throat swelled and prevented breathing, and finally what a great way to escalate the situation with a dog already showing aggression.

Fortunately ellz and son are far to sensible to listen to such a dumb idea.

...you obviously didn't read my post #15 ...what a pity...

[Simply Grand]

In any case he certainly should not be grabbing the collar or punishing the dog (using 'aversives') that's a great way to escalate the aggression and be bitten. http://www.ava.com.au/public/about-pets/polite-pets-month/resources/debunking-dominance-dogs

I agree with those who say he needs to talk to the boss. The boss and the home owner need to provide a safe workplace. Perhaps your son could talk with other workers about it and see what they say? Perhaps they could speak to the boss about it together?

it is not about punishing the dog (any training, with or without punishment would be the responsibility of the owner), but about self-defense, and that does - IMHO - justifies any aversives if required. If the guy is working on this site, he doesn't have to accept that a dogs is humping him if he doesn't want it. If the owner doesn't respond to the complaints, the next time the dog is humping the guy - and the guy can't help himself otherwise - give the dog a good dose of pepper spray into the mouth and the guy won't see the dog again. It might be a big drawback for the future training of the dog, but that's the responsibility of the owner, not the victim that just defended himself.

I didn't even read this comment of yours before Willem but I can't believe you are advocating pepper spraying the dog in the mouth in this situation. First, presumably if the boss doesn't know about this issue the owners don't either and therefore haven't even had a chance to address it, secondly pepper spraying a dog, particularly in its own home could easily end up in an animal cruelty charge (if someone did that to mine without alerting me that the dog was behaving inappropriately, unless they were in the middle of being seriously attacked, I'd be pursuing it hard and sueing if possible), thirdly I don't think pepper spray is legal for civilians so there's the risk of charges for that, fourthly, pepper spray in the mouth could do a whole lot more than "set back the dog's training", it could kill it if the throat swelled and prevented breathing, and finally what a great way to escalate the situation with a dog already showing aggression.

Fortunately ellz and son are far to sensible to listen to such a dumb idea.

...you obviously didn't read my post #15 ...what a pity...

I did actually. That's why I didn't bother reading your following posts too closely. Doesn't change my response above.

Edited September 20, 2016 by Simply Grand

[Willem]

In any case he certainly should not be grabbing the collar or punishing the dog (using 'aversives') that's a great way to escalate the aggression and be bitten. http://www.ava.com.au/public/about-pets/polite-pets-month/resources/debunking-dominance-dogs

I agree with those who say he needs to talk to the boss. The boss and the home owner need to provide a safe workplace. Perhaps your son could talk with other workers about it and see what they say? Perhaps they could speak to the boss about it together?

it is not about punishing the dog (any training, with or without punishment would be the responsibility of the owner), but about self-defense, and that does - IMHO - justifies any aversives if required. If the guy is working on this site, he doesn't have to accept that a dogs is humping him if he doesn't want it. If the owner doesn't respond to the complaints, the next time the dog is humping the guy - and the guy can't help himself otherwise - give the dog a good dose of pepper spray into the mouth and the guy won't see the dog again. It might be a big drawback for the future training of the dog, but that's the responsibility of the owner, not the victim that just defended himself.

I didn't even read this comment of yours before Willem but I can't believe you are advocating pepper spraying the dog in the mouth in this situation. First, presumably if the boss doesn't know about this issue the owners don't either and therefore haven't even had a chance to address it, secondly pepper spraying a dog, particularly in its own home could easily end up in an animal cruelty charge (if someone did that to mine without alerting me that the dog was behaving inappropriately, unless they were in the middle of being seriously attacked, I'd be pursuing it hard and sueing if possible), thirdly I don't think pepper spray is legal for civilians so there's the risk of charges for that, fourthly, pepper spray in the mouth could do a whole lot more than "set back the dog's training", it could kill it if the throat swelled and prevented breathing, and finally what a great way to escalate the situation with a dog already showing aggression.

Fortunately ellz and son are far to sensible to listen to such a dumb idea.

...you obviously didn't read my post #15 ...what a pity...

I did actually. That's why I didn't bother reading your following posts too closely. Doesn't change my response above.

...then your comment doesn't make much sense....

Edited September 20, 2016 by Willem

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

regards the collar grab - it all depends but I've done it to quite aggressive dogs. One of them did turn around and put his mouth on my arm but he'd been more interested in attacking my dog - but the fact that he put his teeth on me - was enough to get council to take action and prevent that dog being allowed loose at our local park again.

But the humpers, I just reach down mid hump and drag them off. Yelling "NO" at a dog can incite them to be aggressive back. With a GR x Poodle - I'd take the risk and grab the dog and hold it away from me. In fact that's the kind of dog I've had to remove from my own - a lot - and the reason my dog hates poodle crosses she's met since that one.

But it was never aggressive. This one - I guess it's "broken". And I'd go the dencorub or eucalyptus spray - but I agree with the others who have said - speaking up - is probably the best option here. A big dog like that can knock ladders and people over.

[fbaudry]

In any case he certainly should not be grabbing the collar or punishing the dog (using 'aversives') that's a great way to escalate the aggression and be bitten. http://www.ava.com.au/public/about-pets/polite-pets-month/resources/debunking-dominance-dogs

I agree with those who say he needs to talk to the boss. The boss and the home owner need to provide a safe workplace. Perhaps your son could talk with other workers about it and see what they say? Perhaps they could speak to the boss about it together?

it is not about punishing the dog (any training, with or without punishment would be the responsibility of the owner), but about self-defense, and that does - IMHO - justifies any aversives if required. If the guy is working on this site, he doesn't have to accept that a dogs is humping him if he doesn't want it. If the owner doesn't respond to the complaints, the next time the dog is humping the guy - and the guy can't help himself otherwise - give the dog a good dose of pepper spray into the mouth and the guy won't see the dog again. It might be a big drawback for the future training of the dog, but that's the responsibility of the owner, not the victim that just defended himself.

I didn't even read this comment of yours before Willem but I can't believe you are advocating pepper spraying the dog in the mouth in this situation. First, presumably if the boss doesn't know about this issue the owners don't either and therefore haven't even had a chance to address it, secondly pepper spraying a dog, particularly in its own home could easily end up in an animal cruelty charge (if someone did that to mine without alerting me that the dog was behaving inappropriately, unless they were in the middle of being seriously attacked, I'd be pursuing it hard and sueing if possible), thirdly I don't think pepper spray is legal for civilians so there's the risk of charges for that, fourthly, pepper spray in the mouth could do a whole lot more than "set back the dog's training", it could kill it if the throat swelled and prevented breathing, and finally what a great way to escalate the situation with a dog already showing aggression.

Fortunately ellz and son are far to sensible to listen to such a dumb idea.

...you obviously didn't read my post #15 ...what a pity...

I did actually. That's why I didn't bother reading your following posts too closely. Doesn't change my response above.

+1

A lot of sensible advice has been given; lucky Ellz and her son know better than this, but I'd hate some newcomer to read this thread and stumble upon another piece of ill informed and dangerous advice....

Hope all goes well with the apprentice board and that you come to a resolution.