What Would You Do?

[Willem]

It's a large, fairly nondescript crossbred dog and has spent much of today alternatively "humping" my son's leg and getting narky with him and attempting to bite him when he tells it no and tries to stop it from acting up on him.

I would not be telling a dog like that "no" and I would not be letting it hump my leg either. The way I deal with most dogs like that now is to grab their collar and hold them away from me - until they notice they can't get where they want to go, when they back off, I let them go to see what their choice is... More humping and I collar grab again. If it gets extreme... I have a spare lead in my bag and the dog would get tied up.

The other thing I would recommend trying is more subtle. Get some eucalyptus oil, mix it two drops to 200ml water in a misting bottle - and spray on clothes. It smells pretty nasty and would discourage the sniff before humping and probably the humping.

Definitely it's a safety problem for the dog as well as the workers. If they spill paint on the dog or someone gets tripped and falls on it - there's going to be problems for the dog too.

I'd be careful trying a collar grab with a dog that has been narky with you. Quite a lot of dogs don't like it and if they haven't been conditioned to it, they may bite you just for trying to get their collar.

second that - according to the OP the dog already tried to bite when the poor guy attempted to avoid the humping. While such behaviour can be just play, in this case it looks more like dominance behaviour, which is unacceptable towards a human...and dogs are pretty good in finding out (body language, smell) who is the weakest link in the group (this skill comes from the ancestors that had - and still have - to make the easiest kill and avoiding any risk of injuries to maintain the best chance of survival)- I assume the other colleagues don't get humped?...while this are tough times, and it might cost him his job, considering he is just 17 it is part of the learning - he should stand up, talk to his boss and if required should use aversives to defend himself from being humped (you wouldn't allow such behaviour from a colleague, so why would you accept it from a dog???)....

Once he made this decision for himself, it might be that the humping stops as the dog might recognize the changed body language / attitude. If his boss can't sort it out and arrange that the dog gets locked away or controlled by the owner he should be ready to defend himself...and a possible bite hurt less than constant humiliation in the long run.

ETA: depending on his physical strength and how familiar he is with 'wrestling' a dog, a pepper spray might be a subtile, but very effective alternative: http://www.wellingtonsurplus.com.au/listProduct/SECURITY/PEPPER+SPRAYS

...this is my comment in post #15 ... just to put the unqualified comments of some posters (impaired reading skills?) here in perspective ...but hey, I understand, for some people even a tradie mauled by 3 dogs and a 9 year old girl mauled by 2 dogs doesn't justify the use of aversives...what did the owner of the 2 dogs say when the child was attacked?.... stand still and don't move....oh well...

Edited September 20, 2016 by Willem

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

doesn't justify the use of aversives

You've seen how dog fights start most of the time? One dog scolds another dog for being "rude" and the other dog instead of apologising - gives it right back. And if neither dog backs down - it escalates into a serious fight.

So scolding a dog or saying "no" at it - is step one towards a dog fight. Fine if the dog backs down but not so good if you set it off.

With a collar grab - you know as soon as you put your hand towards the dog's neck if there's going to be trouble. If the dog is humping your leg - it's not going to notice straight away that you've grabbed it.

[westiemum]

Tara and Sam and Simply Grand have nailed it - glad he is going to talk to the boss. Even if he is an apprentice its never too early to learn professional responses - and this is one of those times.

[westiemum]

Tara and Sam and Simply Grand have nailed it - glad he is going to talk to the boss. Even if he is an apprentice its never too early to learn professional responses - and this is one of those times.

[Willem]

doesn't justify the use of aversives

You've seen how dog fights start most of the time? One dog scolds another dog for being "rude" and the other dog instead of apologising - gives it right back. And if neither dog backs down - it escalates into a serious fight.

So scolding a dog or saying "no" at it - is step one towards a dog fight. Fine if the dog backs down but not so good if you set it off.

With a collar grab - you know as soon as you put your hand towards the dog's neck if there's going to be trouble. If the dog is humping your leg - it's not going to notice straight away that you've grabbed it.

...I prefer a headlock if I deal with a single aggressive dog ... worked the last time pretty well when we had to separate 2 American Staffies (one had latched on to the other)...collar grab can result in a nasty surprise if it is a kind of martingale collar and you grab the wrong section of the collar :D

[Tara and Sam]

I've had a chat with him and shown him this thread.

They were at a different worksite today but I think he's going to mention the situation to his boss and ask him to deal with it when they are around the corner on the other worksite tomorrow.

As he said, a loose dog is dangerous for lots of reasons and what if he were scared of dogs in general or had a really bad allergy to dogs? I'm happy that he has obviously been thinking things through and understands the need for his safety and that of his colleagues.

He's not a small boy (rising 6'2 and 85kg) and is a State rugby representative, so not a weakling, but he also knows better than to attempt to manhandle an unfamiliar dog. He also knows the difference between goofy dog play and attempted dominance and aggressive overtures and has seen first hand situations where things have escalated badly so he wouldn't dream of attempting to train someone else's dog.

I did actually manage to see the dog today (in action at the gate) and I believe what I saw was a Golden Retriever X Poodle, and not a small one either.

I'm meeting with the Apprenticeship Board rep tomorrow to sign his paperwork for the apprenticeship so I might get an opportunity to ask some benign questions about what to do in various situations in order to act "by the book".

In the meantime, he has pigs ears, vege snouts and a packet of Schmackos in his lunch bag. He commented that no matter how hungry he got, he wouldn't be tempted ????????

So glad he going to mention it to the boss :) get son to write down the conversation date , time etc , at least it now falls back on the boss to make a safe working situation

and if for some reason the boss is slack with it , at least the boss has been informed about it and its dangers

your son is covering his butt

PS at 6'2 he can come and paint my house if wants :laugh:

[The Spotted Devil]

eliz - I think speaking politely to his boss is the best approach. I was knocked down by a 500kg cow at work late last year and I am still suffering pain and immobility. All because of the complete absence of OH&S practices. I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

[Willem]

....In the meantime, he has pigs ears, vege snouts and a packet of Schmackos in his lunch bag. He commented that no matter how hungry he got, he wouldn't be tempted

...let's hope the owner locks the dog away, because the only thing these treats will achieve is that it will make your son even more attractive for the dog and will reinforce the unwanted behaviour - the dog will be very aware about the food source and throwing the treats around to distract the dog won't fool him (classical conditioning)...

ETA: ...considering the trainings level of the dog and the owner skills there is even a good chance that treats lying around will trigger food guarding that would worsen the whole scenario....

Edited September 20, 2016 by Willem

[Two Best Dogs!]

Please let us know how your son goes Ellz, hopefully it will just be a quick chat to his boss with a quick chat to the owner and the dog is locked up out of the way.

Dogs should always be locked up when tradies are working IMO. Even if not aggressive - being underfoot, hazardous building materials and the risk of gates being left open. Too many risks.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

...I prefer a headlock if I deal with a single aggressive dog

I don't think I'd want to put my face that close to an angry dog. But when I'm desperate - I will grab any bit I can get.

Had a boisterous and big puppy charging up to me and my dog. I saw it coming and my dog was too busy sniffing to do anything I told her (she really wanted to toilet - perfect timing with big puppy and its friend charging up). I was worried that my dog would scold them and there would be trouble but she didn't. One of them nearly got poop on its head.

The puppy was big and a bit scary but I pretended it wasn't. I think it was trying to cadge treats and I was starting to get annoyed with the owner for letting it charge up to every dog on the park and us repeatedly. If it had offered any kind of behaviour other than "where's the treat" - like a sit? I would have given it some and "owned it".

So it was a relief to find out that my dog wasn't interested in beating them up. Today. And the big puppy lost interest in us almost instantly - no treats and no chase opportunity. It looked a bit like a greyhound x kelpie. Really liked chasing things.

[Willem]

...I prefer a headlock if I deal with a single aggressive dog

I don't think I'd want to put my face that close to an angry dog. But when I'm desperate - I will grab any bit I can get.

Had a boisterous and big puppy charging up to me and my dog. I saw it coming and my dog was too busy sniffing to do anything I told her (she really wanted to toilet - perfect timing with big puppy and its friend charging up). I was worried that my dog would scold them and there would be trouble but she didn't. One of them nearly got poop on its head.

The puppy was big and a bit scary but I pretended it wasn't. I think it was trying to cadge treats and I was starting to get annoyed with the owner for letting it charge up to every dog on the park and us repeatedly. If it had offered any kind of behaviour other than "where's the treat" - like a sit? I would have given it some and "owned it".

So it was a relief to find out that my dog wasn't interested in beating them up. Today. And the big puppy lost interest in us almost instantly - no treats and no chase opportunity. It looked a bit like a greyhound x kelpie. Really liked chasing things.

...if you are confident enough doing it, it is actually a good way to avoid getting bitten - in this case a dog-aggressive dog latched on to another dog (dog owner misjudged her dog - ...the usual he never did this before...), I used the headlock to choke him, and when he started to pass out the instructor could pull the other poor guy away (the other dog got away with 2 puncture wounds and a bleeding ear, nothing dramatic)...downside is it takes quite long till they start passing out (20 sec can be very long if you have to apply the pressure to choke an American staffy)...so I wouldn't recommend this if you get attacked by more than 1 dog. Wrt collar grab: I think even Arnold Schwarzenegger would have problems to control the head movement of a bigger dog just by holding on to the collar with the arms halfway stretched in front of him...not a good leverage...

Eta: you can train the headlock with your own dog in a playful game - without choking of course - to get a feeling for the right positioning of your arms etc....most dogs like this kind of 'wrestling' games.

Eta: I thought it is better - for the ones with some reading impairments here - to highlight the red bit ....

Edited September 21, 2016 by Willem

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

control the head movement of a bigger dog just by holding on to the collar

With most dogs - I just hold the collar one hand and away from me (and my dog), once they notice (way quicker than waiting for a dog to pass out), they tend to back up a bit and you can reward by letting go. That's the way too friendly ones.

The aggressive ones, I grab whatever I can, if I can get both hands on the collar - I pull their front feet off the ground. Most dogs (including really fat labs and malamutes) I can do this with. Great dane not so sure. But so far not had to do that with one that's trying to attack me - all their aggression had been directed at another dog.

Not sure what I'd do if the other dog was still trying to attack. But that hasn't happened yet. Usually only one dog wants a fight and that's the one I grab.

It's hard if the other dog isn't wearing a collar. That one - I grabbed a leg or tail or both I think. Enough to get it thinking properly again and it stopped being aggressive.

Fortunately - it's not something that I have to do every day or even every week or month.

[skip]

Great he will chat to his boss. Surely easy problem to fi .

I have had a lot of tradies and quotes being done recently. Dogs r locked away and might be allowed out if tradie wants them. Hard at one stage as painters here and guy doing all my doors including entrances.

Some tradies so obviously do not want strange dogs hanging round. Stupid owner in case mentioned.

[asal]

It's a large, fairly nondescript crossbred dog and has spent much of today alternatively "humping" my son's leg and getting narky with him and attempting to bite him when he tells it no and tries to stop it from acting up on him.

I would not be telling a dog like that "no" and I would not be letting it hump my leg either. The way I deal with most dogs like that now is to grab their collar and hold them away from me - until they notice they can't get where they want to go, when they back off, I let them go to see what their choice is... More humping and I collar grab again. If it gets extreme... I have a spare lead in my bag and the dog would get tied up.

The other thing I would recommend trying is more subtle. Get some eucalyptus oil, mix it two drops to 200ml water in a misting bottle - and spray on clothes. It smells pretty nasty and would discourage the sniff before humping and probably the humping.

Definitely it's a safety problem for the dog as well as the workers. If they spill paint on the dog or someone gets tripped and falls on it - there's going to be problems for the dog too.

I'd be careful trying a collar grab with a dog that has been narky with you. Quite a lot of dogs don't like it and if they haven't been conditioned to it, they may bite you just for trying to get their collar.

second that - according to the OP the dog already tried to bite when the poor guy attempted to avoid the humping. While such behaviour can be just play, in this case it looks more like dominance behaviour, which is unacceptable towards a human...and dogs are pretty good in finding out (body language, smell) who is the weakest link in the group (this skill comes from the ancestors that had - and still have - to make the easiest kill and avoiding any risk of injuries to maintain the best chance of survival)- I assume the other colleagues don't get humped?...while this are tough times, and it might cost him his job, considering he is just 17 it is part of the learning - he should stand up, talk to his boss and if required should use aversives to defend himself from being humped (you wouldn't allow such behaviour from a colleague, so why would you accept it from a dog???)....

Once he made this decision for himself, it might be that the humping stops as the dog might recognize the changed body language / attitude. If his boss can't sort it out and arrange that the dog gets locked away or controlled by the owner he should be ready to defend himself...and a possible bite hurt less than constant humiliation in the long run.

ETA: depending on his physical strength and how familiar he is with 'wrestling' a dog, a pepper spray might be a subtile, but very effective alternative: http://www.wellingtonsurplus.com.au/listProduct/SECURITY/PEPPER+SPRAYS

he is in a potentially dangerous situation, this is exactly what our neighbors dog began to do and it quickly escalated into being bitten if you said no. let alone touch it. try the aversion scents by all means but really talk to his boss. its the bosses job to ensure his staff are not at risk and THIS IS A RISK situation.

Edited September 21, 2016 by asal

[corvus]

Guys, you can't be going into other people's yards and doing anything with their dog - give them food, expose them to unpleasant scents, shove them, pull them by the collar - nothing without checking first with the owner, unless the dog is about to be injured or injure someone else. I'd be very peeved if someone deliberately came here smelling noxious to repel my dogs, and I would not be cool with them tossing treats unless I knew what they were doing and was supervising. Sorry, I have a dog that is anxious about tradies visiting, and things are delicate. I learnt long ago the hard way that it's best if I do all the training. Just tell me you need them out of the way. I mean, you wouldn't have to because I'd ask you before I let them loose in the first place, but you get my drift. Any messing with a client's dog has to be with the client's knowledge and consent, otherwise, you do risk rocking the boat. You don't know what they care about and what seems unreasonable or rude to them. Talk to the boss. If that fails, ask the dog's owner if they would mind if you tossed the dog some pieces of Schmacko as you are worried the dog dislikes you. Gives you a chance to drop a hint to the dog's owner and have a backup plan at the same time. Always toss food AWAY from yourself and behind an aggressive dog so you are using the food to turn them away from you. This almost never results in resource guarding (never in my experience, but anything could happen). One piece of food at a time and they are gone before the dog can feel threatened. Keep them small and the only thing to guard is the source of the food (the human). This does happen sometimes. The dog usually quickly relaxes, but anyway, that's why it's best to try to get the dog restrained instead. And who wants to train a dog while they are trying to work, anyway? Not even me.

[Willem]

Guys, you can't be going into other people's yards and doing anything with their dog - give them food, expose them to unpleasant scents, shove them, pull them by the collar - nothing without checking first with the owner, unless the dog is about to be injured or injure someone else.

...but that is exactly the point here!

[ellz]

Guys, you can't be going into other people's yards and doing anything with their dog - give them food, expose them to unpleasant scents, shove them, pull them by the collar - nothing without checking first with the owner, unless the dog is about to be injured or injure someone else.

...but that is exactly the point here!

First time in this thread that I've actually agreed 100% with you Willem.

Corvus, my son's not a complete novice...he's not going to risk doing anything to himself or the dog that is going to lead to trouble for any party. He has been involved heavily with dogs since before he was born (in fact the earliest photo available of him is at 7months gestation helping me to show a Saluki puppy)..... The treats etc comment was very tongue in cheek. He won't even give MY dog a treat without asking me first. As for the deep heat suggestion....funnily enough, being a sportsman Deep Heat is actually his fragrance of choice and barely a day goes by where he isn't treating something with it, and I can tell you that it didn't work anyway because the dog was still overly interested. Maybe it gets turned on by the smell....who knows.

The upshot is that he is VERY aware that it is an OH&S issue and he has read this thread and being a reasonably intelligent person, he has reached his own conclusions in consultation with me. He knows that as with every facet of his working life, there are procedures to follow and he also knows that his first priority is his safety.

My feeling is that the owner is a pillock. Anybody who would allow their dog to roam at liberty with tradesmen coming and going through gates directly opening onto the street and with direct interaction with those strangers, is asking for trouble. I'd never dream of allowing strangers free access to my property without securing my dogs first, but that's me. From what I understand, the owner is completely oblivious to their dog's issues. And I also understand that the owner probably wouldn't take too kindly to being asked to lock their dog up so while on the outside it looks like an easy "fix", the reality might be somewhat different. I don't like to use class and status as an argument but in this case, one of Hobart's wealthiest suburbs, 3 storey house, 2 "Toorak Tractors" for taking the 4 children to their private schools and a little BMW for doing the shopping in, a very expensive "Groodle" that is absolutely brainless and needs grooming and I think you may be able to get an idea of what it would be like for a "mere tradie" to suggest that their dog needs some sort of training or control.........

[tdierikx]

The dog's owners sound completely clueless... but at least they may be able to pay up if the stupid dog does bite someone... *evil grin*

Seriously... who lets their dog run loose with tradies coming and going? I will contain mine even when I have visitors that aren't completely dog mad...

T.

[Willem]

Guys, you can't be going into other people's yards and doing anything with their dog - give them food, expose them to unpleasant scents, shove them, pull them by the collar - nothing without checking first with the owner, unless the dog is about to be injured or injure someone else.

...but that is exactly the point here!

First time in this thread that I've actually agreed 100% with you Willem. ...

...I don't think I get used to it :)...

From your description of the owner and the dog, it is pretty clear that your son is in a big danger to get seriously bitten if the dog doesn't get locked away. If he tries now to stop the humping, denying of this 'pleasant' behaviour will lead to frustration that redirects to aggression. It would have been less risky if he would have denied the first humping attempt as this would have caused significant less frustration - I guess he learned the lesson regarding humping attempts now.

[Kirislin]

I haven't read it all but cant the boss just ask the owner to keep the dog off the work site. What if it knocked someone off a ladder or got a tin of paint spilt over it?