steppenwolfstaffords Posted September 15, 2016 Author Share Posted September 15, 2016 Oh... and we need photos of the subject of this conversation... you can't use the "P" word and not post photos! T. Here she is on thursday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdierikx Posted September 15, 2016 Share Posted September 15, 2016 Isn't she adorable? Do we have a name yet? And Willem... I was simplifying the reason for more than one shot... and basically said exactly what you have said. The pups definitely get the immunity from the first "milk" (colostrum) available from the mother, and that stuff is a once only availability - once it's used up and the regular milk comes through within the first few hours, that's it, so that's why some pups may miss out... especially if it's a larger litter that takes a while to be born... the first pups get the colostrum, and there's not as much left for the later pups. I used to actually put pups in a warm basket as they were being born, and when all had been delivered, I'd put them all on a teat each to get a good suck - thus increasing the odds of most of the litter getting the same immunity coverage. A learned friend of mine has actually done research and written veterinary papers regarding this immunity and where it comes from, so I do believe that I have my facts straight here. You are correct that the coverage from the mother will prevent seroconversion of the vaccine - and can last for up to 16 weeks - hence the recommendation of a course of shots in order to ensure coverage by at least one of the shots. Oh - and the lifetime immunity is dependent upon more factors than just age and size - it helps if the animal in question is actually getting small exposures to those diseases over the course of its life to basically keep the antibodies active and effective. I recommend titre testing at regular intervals just to make sure the coverage is there... T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted September 15, 2016 Share Posted September 15, 2016 (edited) Isn't she adorable? Do we have a name yet? And Willem... I was simplifying the reason for more than one shot... and basically said exactly what you have said. The pups definitely get the immunity from the first "milk" (colostrum) available from the mother, and that stuff is a once only availability - once it's used up and the regular milk comes through within the first few hours, that's it, so that's why some pups may miss out... especially if it's a larger litter that takes a while to be born... the first pups get the colostrum, and there's not as much left for the later pups. I used to actually put pups in a warm basket as they were being born, and when all had been delivered, I'd put them all on a teat each to get a good suck - thus increasing the odds of most of the litter getting the same immunity coverage. A learned friend of mine has actually done research and written veterinary papers regarding this immunity and where it comes from, so I do believe that I have my facts straight here. You are correct that the coverage from the mother will prevent seroconversion of the vaccine - and can last for up to 16 weeks - hence the recommendation of a course of shots in order to ensure coverage by at least one of the shots. Oh - and the lifetime immunity is dependent upon more factors than just age and size - it helps if the animal in question is actually getting small exposures to those diseases over the course of its life to basically keep the antibodies active and effective. I recommend titre testing at regular intervals just to make sure the coverage is there... T. No...it is actually the maternal immunity / antigens that fight the vaccine - that is one of the reason why it so stressful for the immune system. It would be much easier in a way if the dog wouldn't have maternal immunity as it would require only one shot. To make it more complicated: the maternal immunity only provides protection against diseases the mother is immune to - e.g. if she never got a parvo shot and never picked up the virus via a natural way her colosterum won't provide this protection. During the 16 week period when the maternal immunity is present (fades out at the end of the period) there is a war going on in the puppy's immune system: the already existing antigens fight the vaccine so heavily that seroconversion might not happen...and once the maternal immunity has faded the puppy is without protection at all. That is the reason why they give (well, most of the vets) multiple 'puppy' shots as they can't can guarantee that they have been successful. ETA:...to clarify: you are saying the multiple shots are to address the (unlikely) case a pup missed out on the first colostrum...I'm saying that the multiple shots are given to address the (likely) case a pup didn't miss out on the first colostrum as this causes the unreliable responds to the vaccine. Edited September 16, 2016 by Willem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steppenwolfstaffords Posted September 15, 2016 Author Share Posted September 15, 2016 Puppy's name is Keeley this is the first time ive ever done C5 on a baby, i thought it would be best to keep her on the same vaccine form start to finish as she might be going in kennels before the 12 months shot. ive learnt a lesson and will NEVER do it again ... C3 for babies and the C5 booster closer to boarding ... im going to do C3 at her next one and boost it to C5 a month before we go away so shes got time to react and recover (if she does.....hopefully not!) i ALWAYS do C3, as ive had 25 dogs with Kennel couch who all were vaccinated with c5 so ive never bothered since. i only did it for the kennels and i got a sick pup out of it !!!! so once again let down by C5 !! this morning she came running out with the rest of them (like she always does anyways) and actually ate breakfast with them...regular puppy dry and mince... didnt have to offer her toe cat food to get her to eat so shes hopefully on the mend YAY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted September 15, 2016 Share Posted September 15, 2016 Go, keeley!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted September 15, 2016 Share Posted September 15, 2016 Puppy's name is Keeley this is the first time ive ever done C5 on a baby, i thought it would be best to keep her on the same vaccine form start to finish as she might be going in kennels before the 12 months shot. ive learnt a lesson and will NEVER do it again ... C3 for babies and the C5 booster closer to boarding ... im going to do C3 at her next one and boost it to C5 a month before we go away so shes got time to react and recover (if she does.....hopefully not!) i ALWAYS do C3, as ive had 25 dogs with Kennel couch who all were vaccinated with c5 so ive never bothered since. i only did it for the kennels and i got a sick pup out of it !!!! so once again let down by C5 !! this morning she came running out with the rest of them (like she always does anyways) and actually ate breakfast with them...regular puppy dry and mince... didnt have to offer her toe cat food to get her to eat so shes hopefully on the mend YAY you might be also interested in this new test kit available now in Australia: http://vaccicheck.com.au/ ... it's a kind of titer test, but conversely to the older available titer test where 2 testings are required (1 for parvo and distemper and 1 for hepatitis) it covers all 3 core vaccinations (distemper, parvo, hepatitis) in one test. The issue for the normal mortal dog owner is that vets are very reluctant to offer it, and that they have to buy it as a kit (allows for 12 tests) - I found only 1 vet in the Illawarra that offered the test for AU$ 90, but only if there are min. 6 interested parties...so I have to find 5 other same minded dog owners to embark on this testing regime. So - theoretically - for the same price of a yearly vaccination C3 shot you can verify that your dog(s) still have immunity, thus you can avoid all the potential side effects by avoiding every unnecessary vaccination....might be interesting especially for breeders and establishing those tests as a common procedure and minimizing vaccination in the future will see healthier dogs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdierikx Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 Isn't she adorable? Do we have a name yet? And Willem... I was simplifying the reason for more than one shot... and basically said exactly what you have said. The pups definitely get the immunity from the first "milk" (colostrum) available from the mother, and that stuff is a once only availability - once it's used up and the regular milk comes through within the first few hours, that's it, so that's why some pups may miss out... especially if it's a larger litter that takes a while to be born... the first pups get the colostrum, and there's not as much left for the later pups. I used to actually put pups in a warm basket as they were being born, and when all had been delivered, I'd put them all on a teat each to get a good suck - thus increasing the odds of most of the litter getting the same immunity coverage. A learned friend of mine has actually done research and written veterinary papers regarding this immunity and where it comes from, so I do believe that I have my facts straight here. You are correct that the coverage from the mother will prevent seroconversion of the vaccine - and can last for up to 16 weeks - hence the recommendation of a course of shots in order to ensure coverage by at least one of the shots. Oh - and the lifetime immunity is dependent upon more factors than just age and size - it helps if the animal in question is actually getting small exposures to those diseases over the course of its life to basically keep the antibodies active and effective. I recommend titre testing at regular intervals just to make sure the coverage is there... T. No...it is actually the maternal immunity / antigens that fight the vaccine - that is one of the reason why it so stressful for the immune system. It would be much easier in a way if the dog wouldn't have maternal immunity as it would require only one shot. To make it more complicated: the maternal immunity only provides protection against diseases the mother is immune to - e.g. if she never got a parvo shot and never picked up the virus via a natural way her colosterum won't provide this protection. During the 16 week period when the maternal immunity is present (fades out at the end of the period) there is a war going on in the puppy's immune system: the already existing antigens fight the vaccine so heavily that seroconversion might not happen...and once the maternal immunity has faded the puppy is without protection at all. That is the reason why they give (well, most of the vets) multiple 'puppy' shots as they can't can guarantee that they have been successful. ETA:...to clarify: you are saying the multiple shots are to address the (unlikely) case a pup missed out on the first colostrum...I'm saying that the multiple shots are given to address the (likely) case a pup didn't miss out on the first colostrum as this causes the unreliable responds to the vaccine. I'm not going to argue with you Willem... we both mean the same thing, just have phrased it differently... T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdierikx Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 Puppy's name is Keeley this is the first time ive ever done C5 on a baby, i thought it would be best to keep her on the same vaccine form start to finish as she might be going in kennels before the 12 months shot. ive learnt a lesson and will NEVER do it again ... C3 for babies and the C5 booster closer to boarding ... im going to do C3 at her next one and boost it to C5 a month before we go away so shes got time to react and recover (if she does.....hopefully not!) i ALWAYS do C3, as ive had 25 dogs with Kennel couch who all were vaccinated with c5 so ive never bothered since. i only did it for the kennels and i got a sick pup out of it !!!! so once again let down by C5 !! this morning she came running out with the rest of them (like she always does anyways) and actually ate breakfast with them...regular puppy dry and mince... didnt have to offer her toe cat food to get her to eat so shes hopefully on the mend YAY Awesome news! She's a tough little tacker, that's for sure... I'm guessing that you did the all-in-one C5 shot, yes? She will probably do just fine with the C3 plus the intra-nasal KC components instead - I've not heard of many issues with that combo. T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steppenwolfstaffords Posted September 16, 2016 Author Share Posted September 16, 2016 Puppy's name is Keeley this is the first time ive ever done C5 on a baby, i thought it would be best to keep her on the same vaccine form start to finish as she might be going in kennels before the 12 months shot. ive learnt a lesson and will NEVER do it again ... C3 for babies and the C5 booster closer to boarding ... im going to do C3 at her next one and boost it to C5 a month before we go away so shes got time to react and recover (if she does.....hopefully not!) i ALWAYS do C3, as ive had 25 dogs with Kennel couch who all were vaccinated with c5 so ive never bothered since. i only did it for the kennels and i got a sick pup out of it !!!! so once again let down by C5 !! this morning she came running out with the rest of them (like she always does anyways) and actually ate breakfast with them...regular puppy dry and mince... didnt have to offer her toe cat food to get her to eat so shes hopefully on the mend YAY Awesome news! She's a tough little tacker, that's for sure... I'm guessing that you did the all-in-one C5 shot, yes? She will probably do just fine with the C3 plus the intra-nasal KC components instead - I've not heard of many issues with that combo. T. YUP the all in one !!!!!! never again !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdierikx Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 I had a pup end up on a drip for 2 days after the C5 all-in-one at a young age... I only ever give my pups/dogs a C3 now. Boarding is a bugger because they insist on C5 proof of vaccination or they won't take your pets... grrr! T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steppenwolfstaffords Posted September 16, 2016 Author Share Posted September 16, 2016 I had a pup end up on a drip for 2 days after the C5 all-in-one at a young age... I only ever give my pups/dogs a C3 now. Boarding is a bugger because they insist on C5 proof of vaccination or they won't take your pets... grrr! T. thats the only reason y i did it i onl ever do c3 .... i thought better to have c5 from teh start then add it later on ... i was wrong ! she didnt eat lunch today but she ate breakfast ...slow but steady i guess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 (edited) Isn't she adorable? Do we have a name yet? And Willem... I was simplifying the reason for more than one shot... and basically said exactly what you have said. The pups definitely get the immunity from the first "milk" (colostrum) available from the mother, and that stuff is a once only availability - once it's used up and the regular milk comes through within the first few hours, that's it, so that's why some pups may miss out... especially if it's a larger litter that takes a while to be born... the first pups get the colostrum, and there's not as much left for the later pups. I used to actually put pups in a warm basket as they were being born, and when all had been delivered, I'd put them all on a teat each to get a good suck - thus increasing the odds of most of the litter getting the same immunity coverage. A learned friend of mine has actually done research and written veterinary papers regarding this immunity and where it comes from, so I do believe that I have my facts straight here. You are correct that the coverage from the mother will prevent seroconversion of the vaccine - and can last for up to 16 weeks - hence the recommendation of a course of shots in order to ensure coverage by at least one of the shots. Oh - and the lifetime immunity is dependent upon more factors than just age and size - it helps if the animal in question is actually getting small exposures to those diseases over the course of its life to basically keep the antibodies active and effective. I recommend titre testing at regular intervals just to make sure the coverage is there... T. No...it is actually the maternal immunity / antigens that fight the vaccine - that is one of the reason why it so stressful for the immune system. It would be much easier in a way if the dog wouldn't have maternal immunity as it would require only one shot. To make it more complicated: the maternal immunity only provides protection against diseases the mother is immune to - e.g. if she never got a parvo shot and never picked up the virus via a natural way her colosterum won't provide this protection. During the 16 week period when the maternal immunity is present (fades out at the end of the period) there is a war going on in the puppy's immune system: the already existing antigens fight the vaccine so heavily that seroconversion might not happen...and once the maternal immunity has faded the puppy is without protection at all. That is the reason why they give (well, most of the vets) multiple 'puppy' shots as they can't can guarantee that they have been successful. ETA:...to clarify: you are saying the multiple shots are to address the (unlikely) case a pup missed out on the first colostrum...I'm saying that the multiple shots are given to address the (likely) case a pup didn't miss out on the first colostrum as this causes the unreliable responds to the vaccine. I'm not going to argue with you Willem... we both mean the same thing, just have phrased it differently... T. hm..., not so sure about this...I understand you want to simplify things, but there is a different between simplifying and messing up the science behind it. E.g. the colostrum is available / produced by the mother for approx. 24 hours - so time enough to give every pup the right dose. However, the limiting factor here is not the period the mother can deliver the colostrum, but the capability of the pup to absorb the antibodies from the colostrum; if the pup is older than 10 to 18 hours (depends on breed, individual dog), he looses the capability to absorb the antibodies - if he would have missed out (which is very very unlikely due to the windows mentioned above) and you would bring him - after the 10 to 18 hours - to another bitch that just gave birth and is still producing colostrum it wouldn't give the pup maternal / passive immunity as the window for him to absorb the antibodies is closed now. Conclusion: allow your pups to get the colostrum from the mother ASAP - don't wait! The whole vaccination regime (the recommended fixed dog age when to give which shot) currently adopted is unfortunately pretty 'basic' - the better way would be to do a titer test of the bitch before she gives birth. The higher the titer, the more antibodies the pups likely get and the stronger their immune system will be - and the stronger it will fight any vaccine. Consequentely, this would also increase the period till the maternal immunity fades out, hence the shots should be given later to avoid interference with maternal antibodies. Unfortunately the approach of the pharma industry is to develop more potent vaccines by adding all kind of stuff (boosters) to break down the maternal immunity ...despite knowing that this could lead to dangerous side effects. Edited September 16, 2016 by Willem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Working Dog Lover Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 Unfortunately the approach of the pharma industry is to develop more potent vaccines by adding all kind of stuff (boosters) to break down the maternal immunity ...despite knowing that this could lead to dangerous side effects. That's the first time I've heard of anything like that,it's really intriguing, wonder if you have any further reading material on additives and maternal immunity I could read. I'd appreciate that very much, knowledge is power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdierikx Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 steppenwolfstaffords - Willem has a bit of a history of being vehemently anti vaccinations, and thusly has been scouring the internet for information that backs his stance. Some of the 'studies' cited in some of his fave sources are a little bit suspect to say the least... please take what he is saying (albeit rather eloquently for a change) with a grain of salt, OK? Professionally accepted studies do show that usually the C3 vaccination is sufficient to cover a dog for many years against the main 3 killer diseases, and that it should be relatively safe to give same in a course for young pups to ensure uptake during a specific period that the accepted studies have shown pups start to lose the maternal antibodies. Most reactions are seen with C5 and above vaccines given to younger pups/dogs, most likely due to the way they need to be formulated to combine the MLV components for delivery via the vaccination. Personally, I do the puppy schedule of vaccinations and then the first adult booster shot, then don't vaccinate my dogs at all after that - unless any of them need to be boarded, and the kennels instist on the C5 proof of vaccination. I only ever give C3 to pups, and prefer C3 for the adult booster also. The KC component of the C5 only gives coverage for around 6 months anyways, and only covers 2 strains... it seems a bit pointless to me, as an otherwise healthy dog doesn't actually suffer badly from a bout of KC (it sounds a lot worse than it is) - dog knows I've had enough rescue foster pups with KC to know exactly what it entails... *grin* Go with your heart on this issue with this pup, OK? You have years of background experience with the safty of the C3 vaccinations for your litters, so go with that, OK? I don't see why a boarding kennel shouldn't be able to accept a dog that has been vaccinated with C3 within the previous 12 months, and then added just the intra-nasal KC component 2 weeks before boarding - that would give said dog the active coverage that the kennel requires... T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdierikx Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 Oh - and never worm pups the same day as they get vaccinated... I've seen issues arise from that sort of overload before too... I always do them at least a week apart. T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 steppenwolfstaffords - Willem has a bit of a history of being vehemently anti vaccinations, and thusly has been scouring the internet for information that backs his stance. Some of the 'studies' cited in some of his fave sources are a little bit suspect to say the least... please take what he is saying (albeit rather eloquently for a change) with a grain of salt, OK? I don't see why a boarding kennel shouldn't be able to accept a dog that has been vaccinated with C3 within the previous 12 months, and then added just the intra-nasal KC component 2 weeks before boarding - that would give said dog the active coverage that the kennel requires... T. I've had boarding kennels accept my dogs who were vaccinated with a C3 with the KC nasal spray given on a different date. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pjrt Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 (edited) I don't think Willem is anti vax. Like myself I think he is pro necessary vax and anti unnecessary vax. He hasn't said don't vaccinate puppies. He's just trying to make people think about it more rather than just go with outdated recommendations. I think we've only started to scratch the surface on recognising and understanding the damage that over dosing on vax and all manner of other 'preventative treatments' are doing to our pets. Edited September 16, 2016 by Gruf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 (edited) I don't think Willem is anti vax. Like myself I think he is pro necessary vax and anti unnecessary vax. He hasn't said don't vaccinate puppies. He's just trying to make people think about it more rather than just go with outdated recommendations. I think we've only started to scratch the surface on recognising and understanding the damage that over dosing on vax and all manner of other 'preventative treatments' are doing to our pets. you hit the nail - vaccination has its merits, no doubt. However, it makes me wonder why most of the vets here in Australia still aim to follow the 1 year vaccine regime while even the AVA states: It is being recognised that veterinarians should aim to reduce the vaccine load on individual animals to minimise the risk of adverse reactions to the products (Day et al, 2007). and: The Australian Veterinary Association (AVA) believes that in most cases, core vaccines need not be administered any more frequently than triennially and that even less frequent vaccination may be considered appropriate if an individual animal’s circumstances warrant it. ...the vets come with all kind of 'excuses' to stick to the yearly regime, despite the advise by their own organisation. wrt science studies, googeling etc.: everyone is free to google for papers from Ronald D. Schultz on vaccination; he is one of the highest regarded scientist in this field... ETA: another highly regarded subject matter expert in the field of vaccination is Dr Jean Dodd - here her recommended vaccination protocol (rabies is included for the USA): http://drjeandoddspethealthresource.tumblr.com/post/147595920886/dodds-vaccination-protocol-dogs-2016#.V9yh-49OJhF ... Edited September 17, 2016 by Willem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdierikx Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 I'm certainly not pro giving animals vaccinations every year just in case either... the main reason vets like to recommend it is that they at least see the animal once a year for a general checkup as well. Like I said, my own animals will get puppy C3's and then first adult C3 booster, and preferably nothing after that... unless I have to board anyone, and then I'm forced to go the C5 as the boarding kennels insist on proof of same within 12 months of the boarding dates... *sigh*.. I'd rather sign a waiver saying I'm fine with my dogs getting kennel cough... been there, done that, and it sounds a lot worse than it actually is if the dog is otherwise healthy. T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steppenwolfstaffords Posted September 18, 2016 Author Share Posted September 18, 2016 thank you everyone for your posts Kelley is eating much better now, she is just being fussy now as i put down normal puppy food and no cat food this morning (as i was giving both so atleast she was eating) as she was eating both ... so after putting normal food down and walking away and she looking at me like where the other food i went inside and peeked out the window to see her eating ..... shes put on a heap of weight too which is awesome and i think were almost back to normal im 99% certin it was the vaccine (C5) and ill NEVER do that again !!! shell get c3 at 10 weeks and the spray when needed for boarding thanks again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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