Anticipating The Drop

[bridgie_cat]

Ahk

So

I have a very enthusiastic dog, who can be easily confused (or am I bad at communicating what I want? sometimes I think yes).

She will drop on a dime and LOVES to be asked to do things. But since I have asked her to drop on recall (well over a year ago, just once or twice) she is now throwing in drops well before I can ask for them! If I dont reward that run, reset her, and then recall again - she will barely move off the start line and drop again, or refuse to move from her sit... hit and miss she will do a lovely normal recall, then she will throw in the drop again even though I havn't asked her for one in ages and ages!

I have tried doing much shorter recalls and doing lots of normal ones, then asking for a drop nice and clearly and sooner in an attempt to show her there is a clear difference and that I will call one for her... but then she just becomes more confused trying to throw them in again. In not rewarding the anticipated drop she gets more frustrated and confused and the behaviour gets worse...

So I am hoping for specific training ideas for what I should be doing with her. As we are both just getting confused! And I hate to see her so unsure of what I am asking of her. She tries so hard!

If we can get these last few pieces into place we will be in the CDX ring in no time - it just feels like such a hurdle at the moment!

Bridget

[The Spotted Devil]

I NEVER train DOR with my Dally....as he does the same thing. Random drops when running and playing tug and thats it.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

then she will throw in the drop again even though I havn't asked her for one in ages and ages!

I taught my dog chin tap ie tap chin on ground (cos I could not understand why people were teaching their dogs to mush their noses into the dirt - yuck).

And she now offers that up first or "when all else fails to get the treat".

You want your dog to offer stuff when you're shaping. You want your dog to offer new stuff.

So I'd try... a shaping session 10 treats, reward every different thing the dog offers up.

and I'd try random things on recall - not just drop...

but (and start close up) can you recall your dog and then get them to spin. Or twist, or back up or sit, or stand/wait/stop, or drop or chin tap or sit pretty or "speak" etc. Ten treats - reward each correct cue response. These should be things she knows well on cue. And you might want to start with something simple like "sit on recall" or "stop/stand on recall"...

Just a pile of other things she could be doing so she doesn't just guess...

And be very careful not to reward stuff you didn't cue, if you're not doing a shaping session. Not sure how dogs know the difference but maybe shaping sessions have clickers and obedience training sessions have "yesses".

Note - a second cue - some dogs think this is a reward all by itself. So what do you do when the dog recalls and drops with no cue? Do you give another cue?

[bridgie_cat]

oh I like that idea - keep her guessing and help differentiate what I am actually asking her to do!

re what I am doing - I WAS calling her off the drop or calling again when I saw her dropping, but realised I was rewarding, so now when she drops am turning away, calling her back to heel, and resetting. Still a second command to get her back to heel. Not sure what else I should be doing there however... I need to get her back somehow!

[Two Best Dogs!]

Is she unlikely to drop on some surfaces? Say wet grass or wood chips? Could you practice recall on those to remind her on recalls with out a drop?

We have only done a DOR a few times at my school, I've been using my casual recall for it because I don't want to confuse her with my "get here and get here fast" recall. Like yours, she likes to try and anticipate the next command. Good for drills or teaching new behaviours. Gets a bit frustrating if I'm not careful (always offering spins XD )

[The Spotted Devil]

Go back a step further to restrained recalls - if you've got no one to help, wrap a line around a pole to restrain or push her away playfully and RUN! Go crazy with tug or have her chase food rewards. Find the joy again and just put the formal recall aside for a few days.

[Tassie]

Like TSD, I train rapid drop by itself, in various situations (not formal recall). So that a rapid response to your drop cue is highly rewarded.

I'd also advise not training the formal recall as one exercise. Just train the small component parts separately then when they're solid, they will all fit together. Anticipating the call is often a problem .. so sometimes reward a nice wait with a toy throw back over the dog's head, with the "Get it" cue, other times go back etc.etc. Same thing with either not finishing on first cue, or anticipating finish. Take the front, and the finish out and train them separately .. rewarding only straight fronts .. sometimes the reward can be thrown through the legs .. again with 'get it' cue.

Platforms can be your friend too.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I need to get her back somehow

What would Susan (Garrett) do...

She'd quietly collar grab and walk the dog back to where it started, and then look at it until it remembered what thing it was supposed to be doing... my dog never remembers, but she will usually offer something I can pat her for.

But if it was 4 minutes into a 2 minute training session and she'd just pushed too far, she'd release the dog have a play, park the dog (crate/table/house), and then "bang head here" - make a new plan for next time.

I second what the others are saying - close up train rapid response to random known cues... lots of rewards, and remember the play (balance) breaks between.

You can test understanding by changing what you're doing when you give a cue eg will the dog drop if you're sitting on a chair, or the ground or standing on one foot, or waving a hat (oh dear - fail).

[skip]

Not sure but I would recall and if she dropped turn and run. Be surprising to lessen anticipation. And train the drop at close quarters while dog is aroused and tugging.

[bridgie_cat]

thanks for the ideas!

we will start with the random drop in many other situations and work on good motivation for a normal recall with shorter distance and build. actually her motivation for all these things is still really good up until she has a fail due to the anticipated drop... then she is hesitant with confusion.

but no harm in making a nice straight recall even more fun!

I dont mind the idea of an informal recall command for the DOR exercise - although I imagine that may lead to more anticipation in the long run when she learns "this recall means we are doing something else!". I do find it useful to differentiate my stay signals depending on whether it is a COP vs long stay (I use hands visible vs hands behind back so they know whether we are doing something else from the stay).

In short I think I will keep the same recall signal since ideally I want the same behaviour and speed regardless, but with a good drop in the middle if instructed!

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I use the same word for "stay" - ie "wait". Stay according to my first instructors means stay there until I come back to you... and Wait meant - stay until I call you.

But Susan Garrett has you stay there until I say the release word eg a sit,drop, stand are all "control positions" and the dog must hold the position until she says they can go do something else. So at one point one of her dogs spent 20 minutes outside waiting for her while she got changed and had a shower... And they will all wait on chairs or tables until she says they can go do something.

So i quit using two words and just went with the one. And have quite a few different release words for different things. Tho mostly I use "Go"... sometimes I use "geddit" (get the toy/food) or "on special" (permission to eat dinner) or "Jump" ie do the first obstacle on the agility course... Ie if I cue go do something - she can quit sitting and waiting and go do the something.

Got my best stays and duration in front of her dinner. She really had no clue before that.

The training is always "build the value" while the dog is learning and then "test the value/understanding" when they've got it. You do "test the value" often but a lot more build the value. testing the value - also helps build tolerance for frustration ie the world doesn't end if you get something wrong... you just get to try something different... try again.