Simply Grand Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 We know there are dogs out there that have high prey drive and would kill other animals if they had access to them. To me it is acceptable that prey driven dogs may catch and kill small animals and cats that come into the dog's own yard - very sad, and I would hate for one of my own dogs to do it (my current dogs wouldn't, they are not prey driven at all) - but acceptable and understandable. However I would expect owners of dogs that would kill a cat to keep them on lead in places where cats might be (ie. when walking in suburbs, at the vet). You could still do all sorts of things like exercising the dog, training, parks, beaches etc knowing fairly safely that you won't encounter a cat. Plus a cat is not likely to approach an unknown dog voluntarily and they are pretty quick and nimble so have a decent chance of getting away if you did come across one. What about dogs that would catch and kill and small dog if it got access though? Yes, you can keep the dog on lead wherever there might be other dogs but what if a small dog approaches? We know how often people encounter off lead dogs where they shouldn't be, either alone or with owners that don't prevent them approaching other dogs. What if a stray dog ends up in the prey driven dog's yard? Is that still acceptable and understandable because it came about through prey drive? Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canisbellum Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 Jonah has high prey drive and would definitely chase and kill anything he caught in our yard. Jesse chases but doesn't seem that interested in catching I can call her off easily I warned my neighbours with cats but they weren't bothered and neither would I be. He is always on lead in suburbia and out bush I try and discourage them chasing things. Small dogs are safe from him Sent from my SM-T810 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simply Grand Posted August 25, 2016 Author Share Posted August 25, 2016 Canetoad do you mean he wouldn't kill small dogs or that they are safe because you prevent access? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 I am not sure I could call the pursuit/killing of a small DOG "prey Drive". It may be - but, after all , it is still a dog ..and will be smelling/ reacting as a dog .. so could it be rather dog - dog aggression ? A neighbour's dog killed their small dog ..and while it was awful .. it was agreed that the small dog had been harassing the larger for ages ... I know that is not a strange dog in someone else's yard . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maddy Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 Two of mine are absolutely not safe with small dogs, another is questionable. If they're out in public, they're muzzled and on a harness. We've had to stand in vet waiting rooms with them before, with small yappers within nomming distance but appropriate management means it's not a big deal and we've never even had a near miss. If a small dog was to get into our yard.. well, tough cookies, unfortunately. Having said that, we did actually put measures into places to provide a safety net for intruding yappers- even if they manage to get over the boundary fences, along all the boundaries except one smallish stretch of fence, there is a secondary fence with large enough wire that if a small dog got over it, it could get back through the wire in a hurry. It's saved a couple of wandering cats so far, so I'm pretty sure it would give a small dog breathing room to reconsider its choices. Of course, there's only so much we can do to protect our dogs without it impacting too much on the amount of space they have, and I consider we've taken reasonable precautions, so if one still got nailed after that.. sorry to the owners but.. I keep my dogs contained safely and I can't be responsible for their failure to do the same Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simply Grand Posted August 25, 2016 Author Share Posted August 25, 2016 (edited) I am not sure I could call the pursuit/killing of a small DOG "prey Drive". It may be - but, after all , it is still a dog ..and will be smelling/ reacting as a dog .. so could it be rather dog - dog aggression ? A neighbour's dog killed their small dog ..and while it was awful .. it was agreed that the small dog had been harassing the larger for ages ... I know that is not a strange dog in someone else's yard . Perse, that's an interesting consideration. I guess I view the difference as being between dogs that show aggression to various types of dogs and those that are only interested in small fluffy "prey looking" dogs. I do notice a different in interest levels with some dogs towards my small light coloured poodle x and my only slightly larger Sheltie. Not saying it's necessarily prey drive and that the dogs want to kill the poodle x, but often dogs will take quite an interest in him and follow him around sniffing intently (yes I intervene) and yet respond to the Sheltie like they do to all the other dogs. I assume it's because the Sheltie looks more "dog like" and the poodle x looks more like a prey animal or toy. It isn't behaviour based either as the poodle x has much better dog manners than the Sheltie. ETA - I'm not asking from the perspective of a concerned small dog owner, by the way, or implying that I don't think people having prey driven dogs as pets is ok! I really don't know what I think about it and am trying to make up my mind. Edited August 25, 2016 by Simply Grand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podengo Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 When Ping is running in the forest our big dogs sometimes think he is a hare from far away and run towards him, until they realize he is running at them and they stop. Some of the big coursing hounds watch him very hungrily at lure coursing... They are kept behind a big fence and safely on lead... At 4kg it wouldn't take much for a big dog to kill him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maddy Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 I am not sure I could call the pursuit/killing of a small DOG "prey Drive". It may be - but, after all , it is still a dog ..and will be smelling/ reacting as a dog .. so could it be rather dog - dog aggression ? A neighbour's dog killed their small dog ..and while it was awful .. it was agreed that the small dog had been harassing the larger for ages ... I know that is not a strange dog in someone else's yard . Prey drive is what drives predatory behaviour. And predatory behaviour, in itself, is not aggression. When we kill a cow to turn it into hamburgers, it's not that we feel hate or anger or another other negative feelings towards the cow, it's just that cows taste good. To a highly driven greyhound (for example), the small dog in the distance is not a dog, it's a prey item and by the time they realise otherwise (if they even do at all), the small dog might already be dead. Even close up, some greys just fail to see the difference between a small prey animal (like a rabbit) and something of the same size that just happens to be another dog. They show no social body language when interacting with small dogs because to them, it's not a dog. The sad thing is, many of the high drive greys I've had, have actually been very dog-sociable with medium to large dogs. Sally (the old girl in my sig) was not small dog safe but was a perfect role model for other foster dogs with her social skills- she was incredibly reliable, sensible and a very sweet dog but the sight of someone's white, fluffy maltioodleshitkie in the distance and Sally went from reliable, sensible dog to quiet, careful predator. In the case of your neighbour's dogs.. hard to say. But if Sally had been put in a yard with a small dog, it would've been dead before it even got a chance to harass her. And that is the difference between prey drive and two poorly matched dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 Maddy and SG this is such an interesting conversation. My Springers are absolutely nuts about rabbits. And ducks - I've had one delivered live to hand. But there is no way in hell that Em would mistake a small dog for a rabbit. The Springers are bred to be pretty much disinterested in other dogs so the focus is on game. I am fascinated by the genetic component here. I have trained her to do beautiful retrieves but what she does in the field is just poetry in motion and not something you can train. Sorry - rambling. Pain killers :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karen15 Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 Wow, all of the councils I have lived in, if your dog kills another animal and you're reported, you are in deep doggie do do...... There are no excuses, even if it is in it's own yard. Anyone who thinks it's ok, should check their local council rules on dog attacks. None of the rules I have read separate attacks, and consequences, on the reason for attack ie prey drive, aggression, fear etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maddy Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 Maddy and SG this is such an interesting conversation. My Springers are absolutely nuts about rabbits. And ducks - I've had one delivered live to hand. But there is no way in hell that Em would mistake a small dog for a rabbit. The Springers are bred to be pretty much disinterested in other dogs so the focus is on game. I am fascinated by the genetic component here. I have trained her to do beautiful retrieves but what she does in the field is just poetry in motion and not something you can train. Sorry - rambling. Pain killers :laugh: I have to admit.. I have actually tried socialising in an attempt to at least lessen the issues up close with small dogs but the outcome seems to be much the same as the questionable groups who use things like punishment to "rehabilitate" greyhounds- what you end up with is greyhounds who know they can't express their drive in front of people, which ends up being more dangerous than an openly drivey dog. About two years ago, I was testing a lovely blue brindle girl and although she was doing everything right, the test dog was worried. He was skirting her widely, slinking around her and generally not behaving like his usual outgoing self at all. I gave the grey a bit more leash and began a casual conversation with test dog's owner, looking away from the grey. A few moments later, the test dog got within range of the grey and the extra bit of leash she had and she struck with the speed of a snake. Prior to the pounce, the leash was loose and she appeared totally relaxed and disinterested in the test dog. Unfortunately for the grey, this is why I use UK yard muzzles for testing- stool-guard is moulded in and the strap can be looped around the collar before buckling, just to make it harder for the extra sneaky ones to pop the muzzle off. This particular grey had come from a woman who likes to "help" rescues by taking dogs in, punishing them when they express their prey drive and then palming them off to anyone willing to take one. I suspected this girl wouldn't be safe with small dogs anyway (found out who her breeder was before we even collected her) so I knew not to take her drive at face value but.. someone less experience might have taken the muzzle and leash off to let the two play together and the story would've had a very different ending. The grey in question was very lucky in that her trainer was the only trainer to ever take a dog back from me, after a polite suggestion he not give her away again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 Wow, all of the councils I have lived in, if your dog kills another animal and you're reported, you are in deep doggie do do...... There are no excuses, even if it is in it's own yard. Anyone who thinks it's ok, should check their local council rules on dog attacks. None of the rules I have read separate attacks, and consequences, on the reason for attack ie prey drive, aggression, fear etc. Did you read the post ? the question up for discussion was NOT anything to do with Councils . The discussion is to do with the 'supposed' killing of a small dog by a larger - and COULD this be explained by prey drive ? It is an interesting thought , as a dog may not have been aggressive at all - instead responding to an instinct to chase/grab perceived prey .There IS a big difference :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canisbellum Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 Canetoad do you mean he wouldn't kill small dogs or that they are safe because you prevent access? He is safe with them, although he was geed up one morning after coming across a Kangaroo and saw a Jack Russel in the distance and started to take off. He did stop when I called him so I think it was a momentary "there's a rabbit" till he realised it was a dog. He has never shown aggression to small dogs and tries to play with them. Jesse on the other hand fixates on them and follows them around standing over them although that is getting better. She was a stray so sometimes I think its a hmmm yummy attitude but she has never shown any kind of aggression to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maddy Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 Wow, all of the councils I have lived in, if your dog kills another animal and you're reported, you are in deep doggie do do...... There are no excuses, even if it is in it's own yard. Anyone who thinks it's ok, should check their local council rules on dog attacks. None of the rules I have read separate attacks, and consequences, on the reason for attack ie prey drive, aggression, fear etc. I'm aware of that, which is why I've gone to quite a bit of trouble to prevent something like that from happening. And it's not that I'd think it "okay" for my dogs to kill another dog- but at the end of the day, the only way I can 100% prevent someone else's dog being injured or killed in my yard is to never let my dogs outside again, unless they're muzzled and on lead. And to be blunt about it, they shouldn't have to suffer those sorts of restrictions when we have made every effort to exclude other dogs from our property. If one does get in, it was not for lack of care on my part. Prey drive is not an excuse but equally, if you let your dog wander the streets, my dogs are probably the least of its concerns. And the responsibility for the dog's fate lies solely with its owner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two Best Dogs! Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 (edited) I can't remember which group it was in (Lost pets groups on facebook, I track 4) but locally there was a (dachshund type dog?) that was strayed from it's owner and went up to the fence of another dog's yard. Hole big enough for dog to grab it through. The dog was injured badly, didn't make it. The neighbours who were posting about it one the groups in an effort to find the owners. Dogs were reported but it was basically "they're in their yard". I'll see if I can't find it. I don't think the owner was ever found for the poor little dog. Edited August 25, 2016 by Thistle the dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 Maddy and SG this is such an interesting conversation. My Springers are absolutely nuts about rabbits. And ducks - I've had one delivered live to hand. But there is no way in hell that Em would mistake a small dog for a rabbit. The Springers are bred to be pretty much disinterested in other dogs so the focus is on game. I am fascinated by the genetic component here. I have trained her to do beautiful retrieves but what she does in the field is just poetry in motion and not something you can train. Sorry - rambling. Pain killers :laugh: I have to admit.. I have actually tried socialising in an attempt to at least lessen the issues up close with small dogs but the outcome seems to be much the same as the questionable groups who use things like punishment to "rehabilitate" greyhounds- what you end up with is greyhounds who know they can't express their drive in front of people, which ends up being more dangerous than an openly drivey dog. About two years ago, I was testing a lovely blue brindle girl and although she was doing everything right, the test dog was worried. He was skirting her widely, slinking around her and generally not behaving like his usual outgoing self at all. I gave the grey a bit more leash and began a casual conversation with test dog's owner, looking away from the grey. A few moments later, the test dog got within range of the grey and the extra bit of leash she had and she struck with the speed of a snake. Prior to the pounce, the leash was loose and she appeared totally relaxed and disinterested in the test dog. Unfortunately for the grey, this is why I use UK yard muzzles for testing- stool-guard is moulded in and the strap can be looped around the collar before buckling, just to make it harder for the extra sneaky ones to pop the muzzle off. This particular grey had come from a woman who likes to "help" rescues by taking dogs in, punishing them when they express their prey drive and then palming them off to anyone willing to take one. I suspected this girl wouldn't be safe with small dogs anyway (found out who her breeder was before we even collected her) so I knew not to take her drive at face value but.. someone less experience might have taken the muzzle and leash off to let the two play together and the story would've had a very different ending. The grey in question was very lucky in that her trainer was the only trainer to ever take a dog back from me, after a polite suggestion he not give her away again. Yes, I'm not surprised Maddy. Punishment suppresses behaviour which is why I don't use it. You don't know under what circumstances the behaviour will rear it's ugly head again and it's not something I feel comfortable in either doing or being responsible for. My dogs are all taught a brilliant recall and the Springers are taught a whistle sit. I use a lot of Premack principle in my training and I think that really helps. A pet rabbit appeared out of nowhere at dog club. Em was after it in an instant across the car park but one whistle and she immediately sat waiting for the next command - tail wagging madly and my heart pounding even faster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simply Grand Posted August 25, 2016 Author Share Posted August 25, 2016 (edited) I think laws (council or otherwise) do play some role in the discussion though. Trouble is they are different everywhere. But it's relevant when we are considering whether a dog that WILL kill out of prey drive is ok whereas a dog that WILL kill out of dog aggression isn't. It's tricky, because to me it seems like Maddy has done pretty much everything she can to prevent a small dog getting into her yard, although it is not fail safe. However if someone had a dog that they knew would kill another dog, regardless of size, out of dog aggression would we expect them to do more than that and say it was their fault if their dog killed a similar size dog in their own yard? ETA posting at the same time Maddy so wrote this without seeing your most recent comment. Edited August 25, 2016 by Simply Grand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 My apologies - I read it as a simple 'prey drive, or D A ' question .... More the psychology of it than the ramifications according to law ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simply Grand Posted August 25, 2016 Author Share Posted August 25, 2016 (edited) Perse, it's mainly about the morality/ethics of it for me I suppose. The really tricky part Something I am considering lately in light of a certain foster dog. Edited August 25, 2016 by Simply Grand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 Perse, really it's more about the morality/ethics of it for me I suppose. The really tricky part yes... that certainly IS the bit which can tear US apart ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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