Victoria Trying To Limit Breeding Dog Numbers

[Steve]

Is the answer to be able to PROVE to each of these groups (govt, animal rights etc) where the pound dogs are coming from? Can we not just add "breeder contact details" to the microchip information?

I think dog breeding is already heading toward smaller and smaller numbers in each individual kennel, but I see it as a great loss to breeds... and it comes down to what you wrote about needing numbers to allow for adequate selection pressure and improvement. Many breeders would now have 1-4 bitches - and if one of them has a less than ideal nature, average health results, lacks breed type, or has issues breeding and whelping naturally... well - we probably still work with what we have! Because there is little to no fall back with such small numbers.

The kennel of a previous generation had enough dogs that if there were any of the above issues, that bitch could simply be excluded without it being a huge loss to the plans and genetic pool for that breeder. AND there was a larger number of litters and generations all being bred with a single mind and set of goals - where that kennel will develop a "type" and be known for specific qualities/strengths.

As far as I am aware the origin of pound animals has already been proven, via many studies available on the net including those by the RSPCA, UQ etc.

I agree with the remainder of your post.

As far as Im aware its not possible to determine who breeds animals that turn up in pounds.There are some stats which say who dumps them for individual orgs but no way could they say where they originate from. If there are any studies of this kind I would be interested to see them.

[asal]

Is the answer to be able to PROVE to each of these groups (govt, animal rights etc) where the pound dogs are coming from? Can we not just add "breeder contact details" to the microchip information?

I think dog breeding is already heading toward smaller and smaller numbers in each individual kennel, but I see it as a great loss to breeds... and it comes down to what you wrote about needing numbers to allow for adequate selection pressure and improvement. Many breeders would now have 1-4 bitches - and if one of them has a less than ideal nature, average health results, lacks breed type, or has issues breeding and whelping naturally... well - we probably still work with what we have! Because there is little to no fall back with such small numbers.

The kennel of a previous generation had enough dogs that if there were any of the above issues, that bitch could simply be excluded without it being a huge loss to the plans and genetic pool for that breeder. AND there was a larger number of litters and generations all being bred with a single mind and set of goals - where that kennel will develop a "type" and be known for specific qualities/strengths.

As far as I am aware the origin of pound animals has already been proven, via many studies available on the net including those by the RSPCA, UQ etc.

I agree with the remainder of your post.

As far as Im aware its not possible to determine who breeds animals that turn up in pounds.There are some stats which say who dumps them for individual orgs but no way could they say where they originate from. If there are any studies of this kind I would be interested to see them.

IF most of the dogs that end up in pounds are not microchipped, why on earth are so many new rules coming in to trace the breeders of microchipped dogs anyway? How is that going to stem the flow of the invisible impossibles to find? Harass the honest until they give up? so the only dogs to be found are the backyarders? still wont find who bred it unless having any dogs becomes illegal?

pretty obvious that the unchipped dogs are coming from WHERE? THE REAL BACKYARD BREEDERS that no one, no way is going to find to eradicate let alone trace.

you cant trace the never chipped ones can you? no matter how many laws are made.

Another odd thing, Pet shops from what I have read anyway are to blame for the impulse buys and dumped dogs so stands to reason close them down. There is just one flaw to that reason, no pet shop can sell an unchipped dog or puppy? Yet they are to blame for the dogs in the pounds? As are those who obey the law and chip their puppies, regulate them into knots and there will be no dogs end up in the pounds. but all these dogs are chipped? There is a problem in this isn't there?

Professor Summner Miller would ask, why is this so?

Edited September 7, 2016 by asal

[bridgie_cat]

wonder what % of dogs in pounds do or don't have chips... I really wouldnt have any idea. Someone must have that stat somewhere.

there will be no way to trace those that dont chip and dont answer to any regulator. that will continue to be the case no matter what rule is brought in since they won't be observing whatever regulations the govt attempts to impose. that does not mean, in my mind, that we do not give the more responsible ones an easy way to trace their dogs and prove their innocence. any breeder worth their salt would be happy to happy to have a section on a microchip that allows their contact details to be kept with that dog should anything ever happen to them and that dog end up in a pound.

[Steve]

wonder what % of dogs in pounds do or don't have chips... I really wouldnt have any idea. Someone must have that stat somewhere.

there will be no way to trace those that dont chip and dont answer to any regulator. that will continue to be the case no matter what rule is brought in since they won't be observing whatever regulations the govt attempts to impose. that does not mean, in my mind, that we do not give the more responsible ones an easy way to trace their dogs and prove their innocence. any breeder worth their salt would be happy to happy to have a section on a microchip that allows their contact details to be kept with that dog should anything ever happen to them and that dog end up in a pound.

However, right now it is not possible for anyone to know where dogs that end up in pounds originate from and until they do legislating to take away people's rights based on nothing more than what animal rights has decided is the problem is pretty out there. the breeders these days that are supplying pet shops are breeders who have passed all of their requirements and inspections and follow codes to the letter.

But the idea that we lay down and go along with it is mind boggling.

Ive seen yelling and brawling about tail docking, and BSL with shouts that this is the beginning and they will take away our rights one by one etc yet when we see this happening - Where dog owners cant purchase a dog or their choice from a source of their choice where breeders will be restricted in how many dogs they can own, where breeders will be restricted even in where they can advertise them ,where only sales THEY stand to profit from can be sold through an outlet we go along like lambs because the nutters have sold the propaganda , we think this wont affect us ,watch while it happens and line up for the next beating is beyond me.

Anyone with a bit of thought can see that how you care for and look after your dogs is not just about how many you own.

[asal]

wonder what % of dogs in pounds do or don't have chips... I really wouldnt have any idea. Someone must have that stat somewhere.

there will be no way to trace those that dont chip and dont answer to any regulator. that will continue to be the case no matter what rule is brought in since they won't be observing whatever regulations the govt attempts to impose. that does not mean, in my mind, that we do not give the more responsible ones an easy way to trace their dogs and prove their innocence. any breeder worth their salt would be happy to happy to have a section on a microchip that allows their contact details to be kept with that dog should anything ever happen to them and that dog end up in a pound.

" prove their innocence." AND THERE LIES THE PROBLEM!

whatever happened to innocent UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY? But hey a dog breeder today apparently is the lowest of the low in this supposedly democratic country.

Although I agree a section for breeder contact is a good idea, as a chipper myself I discovered one good thing, the companies that sell them keep a record of who bought those chips, so a phone call out of the blue came when an impounded dog was scanned and the owner could not be traced, they contacted me as the dogs chipper to ask if I could look up my records. (we have to keep copies of every dog we chip) it took 3 days to find him, and he was one I bred and scampered down and picked him up.

I can only go on what I saw happen to a friend.

Had always chipped from the day they became available,

Kept records of ever pup bred, chip number and new owner details

except some 15 or more years later received a letter demanding the whereabouts of dozens of chips listed as the puppies had not been adult registered.

seems a simple request.

but no other details were given, not date of birth even to allow her to go to the book for that date. She was 80 at the time and the stress of going through those books from year one she ended up ill.

She had good reason to HAVE to find the details. think the fine was almost 200 per dog if she didnt come up with the information wanted.

in those days same as now, all puppies were chipped in the name of the breeder and a change of ownership form was filled out when it was sold.

What you dont realise, is what she found out, many new owners never get around to paying their lifetime registration. what is even less realised is not all the transfer of owner details end up in the data base even if the breeder personally took the copy to council.

or in the case of a puppy that died after being chipped and for obvious reasons never lifetime registered, its chip number had to be found and death notified or the fine was imposed.

I had that experience myself only a few years ago. received a, where is this dog, why hasnt it been adult registered, register it or be fined. Same as my friend all they sent me was the chip number and no birth date or name of the dog not even the sex? that believe it or not was refused to disclose to me. Something about the freedom of information act? spent days going through my books. Finally found the number, the puppy had died 8 years previously. went down to council with the dates, birth, and death and submitted the information. still received a $169 fine with no right of appeal because I had found what they wanted the day after the deadline.

Chips are not issued in numerical order, there is no system that I know of anyway where they can be recorded and stored in a numerical order to find them if required.

they are random beyond belief.

in my friends case trying to find and remember over a dozen different numbers while searching her records with no idea even when they were born is incredibly difficult.

That is why so many breeders took up the practice of having the puppies registered with council with the actual name and address of the new owner. That way if they dont register their puppy, the letter goes directly to them instead of the breeder.

there was no attempt to hide who bred it, many who saw what had happened to others, it was to keep the paper trail direct to the owner, instead of decades later a pay up or find that number letter would arrive from council, council records certainly are not always up to date, as my friend discovered. Or as I found council refused to give me any more information than the chip number of the dog.

[Steve]

When chipping first came in in NSW and even now in some states it is up to the new owner to change chip details but now its up to the breeder in NSW. So I years ago I also received threatening letters about dogs that were still in my name prior to the breeder having to notify that they had been sold .I keep pretty good records and my spread sheet is in numerical order so I found them pretty easily but by then some of the owners had moved and some were not able to be contacted - and they wont accept the change of owner form unless the new owner signs for it .Ended up having to work through them all rely - on the new owner years after they bought the pup to send me back a completed form which most didn't do so I ended up having to get stat decs signed to show where they had gone. There didnt care who bred them they just that they were listed as owned by someone and not registered.

Then for some time we were able to chip the dogs into the new owners name, Then pet shops had an exemption and anyone selling to a pet shop didnt need to chip prior to sale and the pet shop put them straight into th enew owners name- so breeder and pet shop never showed up on the system even if they could have been able to track them.

These days you are not supposed to get the pups chipped into the new owners name in NSW and there is a requirement that the owner of the dog is the person getting the chip put in on the day so if a breeder says they have a different name or they send someone else to take the pups to the chipper the breeder never shows up,

No id required to go to a vet and have a pup chipped - just fill out the form and sign here.

We were hoping that the system in NSW would be able to identify the breeder [ even if the breeder wasnt with the puppies when they were chipped] which obviously has its own potential issues as each breeder is issued a breeder number - but for now turns out th eonly good of the breeder number is being able to claim them online and you cant do that anyway if you were not there when the pups were chipped.

How the hell anyone could even suggest that its possible to know who bred a dog in any system at this time based on chip info is ridiculous.

[asal]

Remember that list of dont's if you want to be called an ' ethical'?

You have to let puppy buyers come and inspect where their puppy has grown up.

or you have something to hide.

Yet as my car nut friend said, only an idiot will give their address to a complete stranger if you have something valuable to sell, He and his mates always meet at a neutal place, macca's or a local garage.

Well a friend has a litter to sell, gave her address, and they never turned up.

Next day she and I go to the pictures.

when she gets home one of the chains locking her front gate has been tampered with, tried to cut it and failed. lucky the house was not broken into, she is on acres and its a km walk to the house so they must not like walking.

[Steve]

Its also of some note that legislation for pet shops in Victoria was ramped up a lot only last July 2015 supposedly designed to stop illegal puppy farmers but before there is any opportunity to see if that legislation has made a difference or not this move became the hot pursuit. The agenda isnt about stopping illegal puppy farmers but all breeders who want to own more than 10 fertile dogs - when that doesn't work just keep lowering the numbers.

And if you think Vicdogs members will be off the hook

Quote

The raid is part of ongoing investigations by the SIU into breeders with links to show dogs. It is one of several investigations into large-scale animal cruelty involving dogs currently underway in Victoria My link

[alpha bet]

One issue that never seems to be examined, is the role of Vets in the issue of puppies and microchipping. Vets are the ones who potentially are cashing in on the pet trade so perhaps they should accept some of the responsibility for building an accurate data base.

It would seem that one thing that could be required is that every vet practice should be responsible for checking dogs microchips during visits. After all most vets charge a minimum of $60-8 just for a 5 minute consult and then seem to add on $$$ for numerous activities.

Every time a new puppy owner arrives with their pup the microchip number can be added to a file and sent thru to the data base this could also apply to dogs renewing vaccinations - hence a chance to update ownership and address.

If a pup/dog doesn't have a microchip the vet has the opportunity to ask where they bought the pup... Most new owners would happily pass on the name and address where they purchased their pup (my experience with pups coming to training) often people have the contact still in their mobiles)... this would allow the chance for names and even addresses or phone numbers to be added to the data base which can then be 'flagged' for reports to councils to chase up the BYB or pet shops or even the registered breeders who don't follow the guidelines.

Perhaps this could have the potential to flush out some of those who flaunt the regs. or at least to help educate the public that microchipping is the breeders responsbility (which includes BYB or pet shops).

[Steve]

One issue that never seems to be examined, is the role of Vets in the issue of puppies and microchipping. Vets are the ones who potentially are cashing in on the pet trade so perhaps they should accept some of the responsibility for building an accurate data base.

It would seem that one thing that could be required is that every vet practice should be responsible for checking dogs microchips during visits. After all most vets charge a minimum of $60-8 just for a 5 minute consult and then seem to add on $$ for numerous activities.

Every time a new puppy owner arrives with their pup the microchip number can be added to a file and sent thru to the data base this could also apply to dogs renewing vaccinations - hence a chance to update ownership and address.

If a pup/dog doesn't have a microchip the vet has the opportunity to ask where they bought the pup... Most new owners would happily pass on the name and address where they purchased their pup (my experience with pups coming to training) often people have the contact still in their mobiles)... this would allow the chance for names and even addresses or phone numbers to be added to the data base which can then be 'flagged' for reports to councils to chase up the BYB or pet shops or even the registered breeders who don't follow the guidelines.

Perhaps this could have the potential to flush out some of those who flaunt the regs. or at least to help educate the public that microchipping is the breeders responsbility (which includes BYB or pet shops).

That's in a minor part of what the intent is now in NSW but vets are saying they don't have the time or inclination to do it and they wont go too far as they wont want to be seen as policing the laws in the fear that people will avoid using them

[sandgrubber]

If we identify that one problem is that not all breeders microchip their puppies prior to sale and people continue to buy them without microchips then there are ways for them to address that which doesn't make life harder for the breeders who are doing the right thing and which wont make any difference to the outcome.

We could introduce a discounted rego fee for anyone who buys a dog or puppy that is already microchipped just as they do for desexed pets. This would help with buyer education and put more pressure on breeders to chip,bring in more revenue for councils. We could also do a yearly door knock to make sure everyone who owns a dog has it chipped and registered. Even if they bought in private contractors for a couple of weeks to do a whip around and issue fines these things plus an education campaign via media for a few weeks would serve a much greater purpose and reach the intended goal much more effectively and quicker than making it a law that breeders must advertise our puppies with a chip number or breeder ID number.

I suspect microchips are over-rated. Has anyone studied the number of dogs they save? Or the number of microchips that have become useless because the puppy buyer never mailed in the paperwork or forgot to register changes in phone number and address? Seems to me there are much more important things to talk about . . . like people who bring home a pup but don't spend any time with it. IMO chips are mostly a quick feel-good gesture but the problem they resolve is a small one, and they often fail to resolve it. But it's an easy law to write and sounds good.

[Steve]

If we identify that one problem is that not all breeders microchip their puppies prior to sale and people continue to buy them without microchips then there are ways for them to address that which doesn't make life harder for the breeders who are doing the right thing and which wont make any difference to the outcome.

We could introduce a discounted rego fee for anyone who buys a dog or puppy that is already microchipped just as they do for desexed pets. This would help with buyer education and put more pressure on breeders to chip,bring in more revenue for councils. We could also do a yearly door knock to make sure everyone who owns a dog has it chipped and registered. Even if they bought in private contractors for a couple of weeks to do a whip around and issue fines these things plus an education campaign via media for a few weeks would serve a much greater purpose and reach the intended goal much more effectively and quicker than making it a law that breeders must advertise our puppies with a chip number or breeder ID number.

I suspect microchips are over-rated. Has anyone studied the number of dogs they save? Or the number of microchips that have become useless because the puppy buyer never mailed in the paperwork or forgot to register changes in phone number and address? Seems to me there are much more important things to talk about . . . like people who bring home a pup but don't spend any time with it. IMO chips are mostly a quick feel-good gesture but the problem they resolve is a small one, and they often fail to resolve it. But it's an easy law to write and sounds good.

Agreed but the argument is that every one is better than none and it generates money for councils vets and microchip companies. If they were more interested in speaking with breeders than animal rights and animal welfare and vets then they may just find the issues are better addressed.

[bridgie_cat]

I disagree re usefulness of microchips.

I'd estimate 90-95% of dogs brought in to our clinic as strays/escapees etc are microchiped and most of these are traceable to their owners - who can then come and collect their dog directly rather than having to send them to the pound etc etc. But then, we are also pretty good about checking microchips and reminding people to update their details that come through our clinic as clients... perhaps this helps the area to be fairly on the ball? Dont know.

[asal]

I disagree re usefulness of microchips.

I'd estimate 90-95% of dogs brought in to our clinic as strays/escapees etc are microchiped and most of these are traceable to their owners - who can then come and collect their dog directly rather than having to send them to the pound etc etc. But then, we are also pretty good about checking microchips and reminding people to update their details that come through our clinic as clients... perhaps this helps the area to be fairly on the ball? Dont know.

yes I have had two decide to go exploring without permission, one a friends kids left the gate open the other had never left home in her life.

in both cases get a phone call from the vets who they had been taken too , in the case of the first offender he had spotted a chap washing his car, noticed the front door was open and hopped in! so scored a ride to the vets.

the old girl was spotted following a neighbors peacock and they were afraid she was going to kill it and whisked off to the vets as a lost doggie too.

had to assure them she knew chookies lay eggs, always stays with the chooks at home when out foraging, never lost one to a fox, except somewhere along the track discovered the little white things they occasional drop are delicious. so she probably decided the biggest bird was the best to follow, should lay the biggest egg. she was in for disappointment that day eh? the peacocks owner is still laughing thank goodness. dont know what it is about her body language but the birds are never worried by her, neither was the peacock. although she moves as slow as a wet week anyway might have helped, she doesnt get close, just staying in eye range to make sure she can spot when one lays n mooches over for her reward once birdie has wandered off, even I can beat her to it

Edited September 13, 2016 by asal

[asal]

INTERESTING

LAST post on the subject is 2016

 

Yet still thousands of dogs and cats end up in pounds WITH NO CHIP!

 

SO nothing has been done to address the underground breeders in the last 8 years

[asal]

On 18/08/2016 at 10:32 PM, asal said:

copied from another forum

"exactly, ONCE 'farmers were highly thought of for their love and care of their stock' but these days there are numerous dodgy characters badly mistreating dogs for $. Big $ too. Could recite numerous incidents of puppy farming I know of, but too depressing...point is, times have changed. This industry needs looking at and legislation of some sort."

reply to the above post.

"Except as it has proven, you can make all the laws you want, restrict how many litters a bitch can have, restrict how many she can have per year, must microchip all puppies, must vaccinate all puppies, can only have so many dogs,

 

 

"Except as it has proven, you can make all the laws you want, restrict how many litters a bitch can have, restrict how many she can have per year, must microchip all puppies, must vaccinate all puppies, can only have so many dogs, can only breed a max of 10 litters in a 12 month period EVEN IF YOU have 11 or 12 bitches you will be in big trouble if you breed 11 litters that year (mind you that "litter" could be just one pup for a small breed BUT that 1 pup is a LITTER, or 16 in the LITTER, for the larger breeds, so a small breed breeder can produce 10 to 20 pups if they get two to a litter from 10 Litters , but the larger breeds can mean their breeder has 160 puppies or more from their 10 "litter's" yet they are not a puppy farmer as long as they were from 10 litter's.

 

how insane is that?) or you will be inspected. 

 

CANNOT breed father to daughter or mother to son or brothers to sisters. UGH how disgusting, how unnatural. This has been a practice from time armorial for breeders to test for deleterious gene's centauries before DNA tests became reality.  Deleterious gene's number in the thousands, present dna testing barely ruffles the surface yet. Arabian horse breeders knew of the existence of SCIDS over a 1000 years ago. In and Line breeding was used to bring carriers to light and clear those found to be free and create strong clear lines.  By thousands of highly successful animal breeders of all species for equally 1000's of years.

 

 Ralvon Bethelem a multi, multi champion was son to mother eg Ralvon Pilgrim to his mother Trix Silver.

 

The most famous horse in Dubai, (actually go google his name, famous around the world u will discover)  MINDARI AENZAC, dubbed their National Hero,  was the result of father to daughter, Ralvon Aeneas to his Daughter Mindari Wingadee. what's  banned in dogs now, has repeatedly produced some of the best of the best when the genes are sound even exceptional.

But hey who cares about soundness, its incest in dogs now but not yet, (anyway) in horses.

 

 

 

But guess what?

I found two puppies last week, obviously over 8 weeks old, took them to animal welfare and nope not a chip between them.

a number of years ago I had two puppies stolen from my home, both were microchipped, I saw the car that stole them as it almost ran me down getting off my land. it was a white sedan but too shocked to get the number plate. some weeks later one puppy was found wandering beside a 6 lane highway near Liverpool. how she survived has to have been a miracle since she was only 6 weeks old when she was stolen and was now 14 weeks.

A kind lady caught her and took her to a lady who bred the same breed who then took her to a local vet and I was phoned and home she came.

For months I scanned gumtree and trading post adds as the police said many stolen dogs end up there. finally when she was 6 months old was a photo of her on gumtree, her owner had to move back to japan and couldnt afford the export costs, I rang and arranged to meet but when I got there only her old male was left, my girl had been sold, I had not dared to tell her she was stolen, I had phoned the Redfern police who met me and interviewed the lady and she was wonderful, she had the names and address of the people who bought her..

Now the interesting bit was she had bought her at Campbelltown markets, she had been told the puppies had been an unwanted gift to the wife and had no vaccination papers so she would need to have her vaccinated and microchipped.

She had not bothered to have her either vaccinated or microchipped as she assumed as she lived in a high rise flat there was no chance of her getting any disease.

Even in the add I found she had said, the puppy has no vaccination papers or microchip, when the police contacted the new owners they were positive their new puppy couldn't be the stolen one after learning the stolen one, had a microchip number.

So agreed to take her to the nearest vet along with a police constable to prove it was not the dog I was looking for.

 

Of course they were not happy to find out they did have a stolen dog. So much so that the family and almost a dozen friends went to the police station demanding the return of THEIR dog, the argument being whoever lost her didn't deserve to have her back or she wouldn't have been stolen in the first place!

 

Thing's got ugly enough that when I arrived to pick up my puppy, the police had rang me and told me when I arrived to look at no one and ask for Sargent ...... and under no circumstance mention I was there about a dog.

Did as was told, although it was very scary walking past that angry group looking for who was coming to get "their" pup.

I was taken into an interview and reunited with Fire. but to get me back to my car safely I was taken downstairs to the paddy wagons and given a lift back to where my car was parked.

 

SO an awful lot of people are happy to buy what they believe are unvaccinated, unchipped dogs and puppies. even though, PERISH THE THOUGHT, its BLOODY AGAINST THE LAW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

DREAM ON, micromanage the law abiding into extinction but you ain't going to stop the underground puppy trade "

 

 

I wrote that in 2016.    still applies in 2024 pounds overflowing with un microchipped dogs!

Edited November 10 by asal

[asal]

On 18/08/2016 at 8:58 PM, bridgie_cat said:

Is the answer to be able to PROVE to each of these groups (govt, animal rights etc) where the pound dogs are coming from? Can we not just add "breeder contact details" to the microchip information?

I think dog breeding is already heading toward smaller and smaller numbers in each individual kennel, but I see it as a great loss to breeds... and it comes down to what you wrote about needing numbers to allow for adequate selection pressure and improvement. Many breeders would now have 1-4 bitches - and if one of them has a less than ideal nature, average health results, lacks breed type, or has issues breeding and whelping naturally... well - we probably still work with what we have! Because there is little to no fall back with such small numbers.

The kennel of a previous generation had enough dogs that if there were any of the above issues, that bitch could simply be excluded without it being a huge loss to the plans and genetic pool for that breeder. AND there was a larger number of litters and generations all being bred with a single mind and set of goals - where that kennel will develop a "type" and be known for specific qualities/strengths.

 

 

so sad, how right you were, many breeds are now so low in numbers if they were native animals would be on the critically endangered lists already.