Too Many Puppies

[Kings]

This question is aimed at breeders, but all opinions are welcome.

I'm awaiting the arrival of my purebred BC pup, from a breeder who ticks all the boxes for me. She has 19 years experience, great dam and sire, tested for everything (hips, eyes, etc) and great personalities. I visited the breeder a month ago and was very impressed with everything I saw. Good, family run kennel bringing up well socialised, healthy puppies. Testimonials from other buyers are glowing.

Except. The breeder had planned for two litters, yet one of her dogs had jumped a 6ft fence to get to the rest of the bitches in heat, so she in fact had four litters born within one weekend, I think a total of some 25 puppies. My pup is from one of the planned litters, and while I have every confidence the breeder (and her family, including 3 teenagers and husband who are all involved in rearing) will do her best, I can't help but wonder how hard it is to raise that many puppies at once.

Is this normal for breeders? How many puppies is considered 'too many to handle'? Out of all those puppies, there was only one runt (different litter to mine), no still births, and none that needed to be hand reared or otherwise need special attention, so hopefully they all get treated equally. I think my main worry is that time and attention given to each individual puppy will be divided between so many, and so I might have a puppy that's less socialised than is ideal. (Although, as one of the planned litters and from the breeder's favourite dog, the whelping box for my litter is in the breeders own bedroom and so this litter is likely to get the best attention).

Our pup will also be an only dog and I'm worried he'll get terribly lonely if he's used to having so many other dogs and puppies!

Am I worried over nothing?

[The Spotted Devil]

The concept of having 4 litters would make me faint :laugh: But that's not to say it can't be done well. It depends on how spaced out the litters are, what your set up is, how much help you have and whether you work as well. For the first few weeks it's reasonably easy as Mum does everything - handling each pup daily isn't a big ask. When they get mobile it's certainly more work especially if you're raising them in an enriched environment. It's not something I would care to judge from afar.

Edited August 8, 2016 by The Spotted Devil

[Rebanne]

25 puppies of the same age! Guess they need better fences. I worry that you think "your" litter will get better attention then the others. All the pups should get the same attention and inter action but whether that happens you'll have to put your trust in your breeder. Have the teenagers all left school? Have the pups parents been DNA tested? Some deadly diseases in Border Collies.

(Although, as one of the planned litters and from the breeder's favourite dog, the whelping box for my litter is in the breeders own bedroom and so this litter is likely to get the best attention).

[Roova]

Maybe it's the cynical side coming out in me but I wonder how a breeder with 19 years experience could leave four in season bitches behind only a six foot fence? Risky even for entire dogs from outside to access.

I would wonder what socialisation all the pups will get. Even the supposed unwanted ones deserve the same efforts as the litter she said she planned. When you said they have great socialisation, what did she tell you happens out of interest?

Good luck with your new pup too!

[juice]

call me cynical too but 4 bitches just happened to be in season at exactly the same time? is that odd?

[Papillon Kisses]

call me cynical too but 4 bitches just happened to be in season at exactly the same time? is that odd?

Same thing can happen to humans in the same household, just saying...

[sheena]

My younger BC was one of nineteen puppies (two litters a week apart). That was a handful, but his breeder took it all in her stride. All pups were raised in the house, all given socialisation & trips in the car..even took them all camping along with their mum's & her other dogs.

They were all given the same training & all received equal attention in every way. I couldn't have got a better pup...so happy with him :)

[JRG]

Not strange at all. Bitches,like ladies working together all the time, tend to cycle at the same time.

I often have all my girls in season at the same time.

But you certainly need a very secure place to keep them!

Edited August 9, 2016 by JRG

[Dogsfevr]

call me cynical too but 4 bitches just happened to be in season at exactly the same time? is that odd?

Not odd at all all our girls cycle at the same time so here it is either one litter or a multi litter ,we have had 3 litters at once because thats just how our girls cycle & whether we mate them is based on a number of factors especially the up coming weather season ,we would sooner have multi litters in warmer weather than winter weather & what our own personal schedule will be for the next 4 months .

Accidents can happen & lets be real here this breeder has been very honest it has happened .

Best attention doesn't mean because its in the bedroom at all unless they hibernate in there room all day ,best attention is alot more than where the box is located

[Scottsmum]

Maybe it's the cynical side coming out in me but I wonder how a breeder with 19 years experience could leave four in season bitches behind only a six foot fence? Risky even for entire dogs from outside to access.

I would wonder what socialisation all the pups will get. Even the supposed unwanted ones deserve the same efforts as the litter she said she planned. When you said they have great socialisation, what did she tell you happens out of interest?

Good luck with your new pup too!

That would be my initial gut reaction but accidents do happen.

My mums most recently litter (kelpies, maiden bitch) had 12 pups - so even with two planned litters numbers *could have* been in the 20s. I think there'd be some "economies of scale" - lots of washing - just a few more loads, lots of pooey newspaper, puppy dishes etc ... but 25 pups isn't something I'd be super keen on! LOL Sadly even with some round the clock watching they lost a few

Tend to also agree with TSD - could be done, not something I'd necessarily judge from afar / online.

[*kirty*]

My girls are contained by a 6 foot fence and I think that is perfectly reasonable. Perhaps this is a new dog and the breeder had no idea he was a fence jumper?

[Kings]

In answer to some questions raised

Looking at her records, this is the only time this has happened to the breeder, there's always only been a litter every 4-6months. This is not a puppy mill. My understanding is that the dog responsible ???? Is a bit of a 'man whore' and while there are measures to keep him away from females in heat, this one day he got lucky. Also one of the bitches wasn't 'showing' that she was in heat at the time, but obviously was still fertile. I'm not suspicious at all as to how this happened, and the breeder hasn't tried to excuse it. Accidents happen. I'd much rather this kind of accident happens with an experienced breeder than with your average backyard mistake litter. When I visited, it was clear she'd delegated some of the duties to her teens, although I imagine like most mums she'll end up directing and doing most of the work!

The four litters were born within less than a week.

All parents are tested for TNS, CEA, CL and hip and elbow scored.

I think I only raised the position of the whelping box to ease my own unease. I think all the puppies will receive as equal attention as possible.

I'm not worried about the puppy's welfare. To be honest I'm more worried *for* the breeder, especially as the pups get more mobile and momma dog withdraws, I can just imagine the lack of sleep, the mess, trying to keep track of buyers, etc.

And a tiny bit jealous, soon it'll be like a ball pit of puppies!

[Steve]

call me cynical too but 4 bitches just happened to be in season at exactly the same time? is that odd?

Bitches which live together usually all come in season together.

[Steve]

In answer to some questions raised

Looking at her records, this is the only time this has happened to the breeder, there's always only been a litter every 4-6months. This is not a puppy mill. My understanding is that the dog responsible ???? Is a bit of a 'man whore' and while there are measures to keep him away from females in heat, this one day he got lucky. Also one of the bitches wasn't 'showing' that she was in heat at the time, but obviously was still fertile. I'm not suspicious at all as to how this happened, and the breeder hasn't tried to excuse it. Accidents happen. I'd much rather this kind of accident happens with an experienced breeder than with your average backyard mistake litter. When I visited, it was clear she'd delegated some of the duties to her teens, although I imagine like most mums she'll end up directing and doing most of the work!

The four litters were born within less than a week.

All parents are tested for TNS, CEA, CL and hip and elbow scored.

I think I only raised the position of the whelping box to ease my own unease. I think all the puppies will receive as equal attention as possible.

I'm not worried about the puppy's welfare. To be honest I'm more worried *for* the breeder, especially as the pups get more mobile and momma dog withdraws, I can just imagine the lack of sleep, the mess, trying to keep track of buyers, etc.

And a tiny bit jealous, soon it'll be like a ball pit of puppies!

If the breeder has that much experience she will do 4 litters and all that goes with it easily.

I actually prefer to have a couple of litters within a few weeks of each other rather than spread em out but I like to get the choice because the timing has to be right for me to be able to do what needs to be done without stress to me or my family or the dogs. it depends so much on what else the breeder does while the pups are there and how they are organised. Big difference to someone who is with them all day every day and someone who goes to work etc.

So far in 40 years Ive never had an accident but geez Ive come close once.

[alpha bet]

Personally I disagree with most here.... I would place this in the commercial farm situation.... which is fine but is doing no justice to the pups or the new owners.

If she knew that the dog had got to extra bitches she could have organised to have them stopped by having the injections. So I do have to wonder why she would go ahead with four litters at once. No matter how much experience a breeder has or how wonderful you might think her facilities... there is a lot of personal time and effort involved in developing one litter... let alone four....

As a breeder and trainer (30 years experience) I would not consider two litters at a time unless I was trying a bitch that had difficulties getting pregnant and I was taking a punt.... but even then two litters would take a huge amount of effort and commitment to ensure that all the pups are given the sort of introduction to life that I believe is needed.

There is so much social development of a puppy between the ages of 3-12 weeks - and this is not about just placing enrichment toys in a pen and letting the pups play... it is about ensuring pups have outings in the car, visits to friends, individual times with humans and introductions to new dogs etc. There is NO WAY that any breeder can devote the time needed to 25 pups at the same time.... it is a numbers game and working with perhaps 9-10 pups is a full time commitment.

The other factor is that she is trying to find 25 excellent homes at the same time... hence she will end up having to compromise for the homes.... whereas with 8-10 pups she would be able to choose the best options.

[Mjosa]

Alpha bet, totally agree with what you have said, with over 40 years of breeding I have only ever had two litters in close proximity, total of nine puppies, was a lot of hard work, I do not go out to work, when it was all over I vowed and declared I would never do that again, this was back in 1998, I have never done that since.

[juice]

so she averages litters every 4-6 months, hmmmmm.

[Kings]

The other factor is that she is trying to find 25 excellent homes at the same time... hence she will end up having to compromise for the homes.... whereas with 8-10 pups she would be able to choose the best options.

Some buyers had waited up to 18 months. I think she has plenty of choice and if not, then she'll keep pups beyond the typical rehousing age of 8-12 weeks, as I'm sure all breeders should do anyway. Also, I know that not all 25 all puppies are being homed at 8 weeks - some are being kept back and not for breeding, but for aptitude tests for therapy/diabetes detection/epilepsy work. I believe 3 or 4.

so she averages litters every 4-6 months, hmmmmm.

Obviously not with the same bitch. My understanding is she only breeds a bitch once, ideally at 3 years of age - the two unplanned litters are from bitches both 2.5 years, who were planned to breed in their next few seasons (and now they won't). The sire of three litters, she mentioned she was probably going to move him on/rehome as it does no good to the breed if he has any more progeny. And she, quite correctly, doesn't feel she can handle him. I'm not a breeder so I don't know all the ins and outs of how this works, but my understanding is the bitches are often on 'loan'.

Also, I reiterate, one of the bitches didn't show she was in heat, so originally the breeder thought she only had one extra litter (and the possibility that any of the 3 could fail) until it was too late to abort.

Also should mention, these are obviously bigger than average litters. I know breeders should be prepared for the chance that they'll get a big litter, but hey, she probably hedged her bets that it was going to average out to two large litters, which she - and other breeders here - can manage. Maybe if she was only used to small litters it'd be more of an issue.

Edited August 11, 2016 by Kings

[Rebanne]

Kings, you are obviously very happy with your choice of breeder, I am not sure why you bothered to ask anything here as you seem to disagree with any comment negative about the breeder, no matter how slight. So just enjoy your choice, visit your pup when you can and wait until you can bring him/her home.

[alpha bet]

Agree with Rebanne's comments... why bother asking on a public forum ... obviously you are happy so go with your own choice.

There are many here who may feel this is fine.... (but whether these responders actually have any knowledge about breeding and raising may be held in question)

However there are others who don't agree and entitled to make their comment.... if you just want people to pat you on the back then don't post....

25 pups from four litters is not an unusual size litter for border collies - As a trainer I believe this means that each puppy will receive limited social development as a breeder does not have the time to devote to this many puppies at the same time.... regardless of how long she keeps them... the crucial period is 3-12 weeks and she will be in overload.