Purely Positive Vs Balanced Training?

[mowgliandme]

I’ve enrolled the pup in a puppy pre school, which I made sure to ensure was not a “free for all” type one… but I made the mistake of assuming that most trainers are positive reinforcement only (cause that’s all I had researched)

I have been watching kikopup a LOT …and her dogs are wonderfully behaved

There is no pressure to use the trainers methods but she says that purely positive is not as effective and she worked with it for years – what are your thoughts?

I personally would never hurt/use a choke chain/yank a puppy around but don’t know where to stand on using a rattle noise as the negative

My pup is quite happy and confident, so not likely to be traumatised by her negative method - which is shaking a small noisy tin can as an interrupter/distractor for negative behaviour…and even slightly nudging the puppies with it if they are misbehaving/not listening at all (which was very effective in the class)

My puppy is not afraid of the rattly noise, but does stop what she is doing. She is generally easy to manage, but for a couple of times of the day she gets very energetic for a few minutes at a time and doesnt listen (she normally falls asleep shortly after these crazy moments like a child getting over tired)

We are hoping to do puppy school at Positive K9 after this and they have corrections too...but i don't know what they are yet.

What is an acceptable correction? Is a rattle the same as saying "No!" to the pup?

[skip]

I'm confused. If I didn't like a behaviour my pup was doing I would redirect to a behaviour I want and reinforce that behaviour. A rewarded behaviour has more chance of being repeated by the pup over unrewarded behaviour.

Bearing in mind it is a pup who has no idea I would avoid giving the pup the chance to do something undesirable.

If the behaviour if more rewarding to the pup this won't work like chasing another pup I just step in and stop behaviour.

When does the can get shaken?

If you play the name game and the pup loves his name surely that's a better pattern of behaviour. So if pup is running wild, a name call beats a can? If my pup was barking and really over aroused possibly a noise away from the pup that he doesn't associate with u could distract pup snuff that he can actually hear his name and respond.

I want another puppy.

[skip]

Also I wonder if the trainer is referring to purely positive, as in let dogs do whatever with no rules.

"Positive is not Permissive" is a great explanation

[mowgliandme]

The trainer shook the can to stop two pups who were playing roughly and also used it to deter the pups from stealing pigs ears

Honestly I think that both of these situations could have been controlled with positive reinforcement training. i.e. calling their names/using better food lures than the food they were leaving!

[persephone]

Is a rattle the same as saying "No!" to the pup?

I wouldn't think so.

pups have NO idea what 'NO' means until trained to . Then the word comes from the owner/trainer, and means something.

A RATTLE is a distraction

I have never seen this method used , so can't really comment .

Does this help you at all?

LINK to Mark Singer's blog

excerpt :

The issue is NOT the application of punishment. The issue is the application of INAPPROPRIATE punishment. There IS a difference! The biggest issue now facing dog owners is that they are NOT instructed on what is appropriate punishment, or how to apply appropriate punishment, and when appropriate punishment is required. Dog owners are becoming frustrated and angry at their young dog, and a major reason of this is due to not being offered instruction on how to quickly inhibit or extinguish unacceptable and dangerous behaviours. The management principles now being taught by this new age agenda are not offering dog owners and their dogs realistic help or skills.

Edited July 22, 2016 by persephone

[The Spotted Devil]

The trainer shook the can to stop two pups who were playing roughly and also used it to deter the pups from stealing pigs ears

Honestly I think that both of these situations could have been controlled with positive reinforcement training. i.e. calling their names/using better food lures than the food they were leaving!

That's simply poor training. I don't lure, I don't use punishment and I don't ask my pups to learn with such high distractions up front. Layers of understanding is the key. They are expecting University level behaviours at puppy pre-school! How stupid to have high value pig ears in such a scenario.

Edited July 22, 2016 by The Spotted Devil

[mowgliandme]

How do you train NO? so that it has a meaning?

And what would be an appropriate punishment? The pup has a play pen when not fully supervised...there isnt anything dangerous in there for the puppy.

Whats the best way to prevent the puppy biting its bed or the play pen or the puppy toilet or scratching the floors (in a digging manner)? I cant remove the playpen or the floors from the situation, the puppy has lots of chew toys (even food filled Kong), pigs ear etc but seems to love biting those things instead?

[Kavik]

I don't give puppies any interesting beds :) They get towels or cheap fleece blankets from the reject shop until they can show they will not chew them.

You can redirect inappropriate chewing to objects you want them to chew - so to the toys instead of whatever else they are chewing. I don't leave them with anything important that I don't want chewed.

[The Spotted Devil]

How do you train NO? so that it has a meaning?

And what would be an appropriate punishment? The pup has a play pen when not fully supervised...there isnt anything dangerous in there for the puppy.

Whats the best way to prevent the puppy biting its bed or the play pen or the puppy toilet or scratching the floors (in a digging manner)? I cant remove the playpen or the floors from the situation, the puppy has lots of chew toys (even food filled Kong), pigs ear etc but seems to love biting those things instead?

I don't train "No". I teach my puppies to make great choices by setting them up for success. They also learn through failure (carefully controlled) where I can control access to the reward - builds confidence, resilience and lovely all round pets. How long is puppy in the pen for? Mine would not be placed in the pen unless they had plenty of mental stimulation (training!) and appropriate exercise first. Put them in the pen with a frozen chicken frame or similar and they eat then sleep. Bedding - I use Snooza D1000 beds - not cheap but mine is on its 3rd puppy! Plus op shop blankets. My pen is metal (from Vebopet). Not very tasty! Puppies need to chew - deer antlers and raw meaty bones are popular here.

Edited July 22, 2016 by The Spotted Devil

[mowgliandme]

I thought so too... i havent used the instructors training methods anyway

The Spotted Devil - why dont you lure? Ive used it to teach sit, come, lie down and watch me very effectively...?

[The Spotted Devil]

I thought so too... i havent used the instructors training methods anyway

The Spotted Devil - why dont you lure? Ive used it to teach sit, come, lie down and watch me very effectively...?

There's nothing inherently wrong with luring but you need to move on VERY quickly or else pup only performs the behaviour when they see you've got a treat. Shaping doesn't come with those issues. But the main thing is that it's also the trainer who then falls into the habit of always luring and doesn't move on. Once I broke the habit of luring my training really blossomed. Yes, I still use it very occasionally but am conscious to rapidly move on.

[Kavik]

I use mostly shaping, but I still use luring for some things (eg spins). The key as TSD said is to fade the lure quickly.

Edited July 22, 2016 by Kavik

[mowgliandme]

She has a soft blanket like thing at the moment for a bed, the pen is also metal

Puppy is only in the pen for an hour to two hours at a time, if I have to go somewhere, usually she sleeps but sometimes she is chewing the bed or digging at the ground. She is played with and tired out before I put her in there and often trained in there so she has positive associations with it - doesnt whine much when I leave (we have been following our breeders tips for preventing separation anxiety)

Edited July 22, 2016 by mowgliandme

[The Spotted Devil]

Reckon the blanket could end up shredded soon :D Try a cardboard box that pup can shred...or paper towel rolls. Makes a mess but so satisfying for destructo pups!

[The Spotted Devil]

I only ever feed in the pen when they're young...unless I'm training. Builds a positive association.

Edited July 22, 2016 by The Spotted Devil

[The Spotted Devil]

Breed? Photos???

[Salukifan]

I have no issues with balanced training.

I figure it puts the fence around acceptable behaviour. But you use positive reinforcement as much as possible/

The can is an interrupter. I see it as no different to yelling "OI" when a dog is doing something it shouldn't.

[The Spotted Devil]

Yes to the interrupter but there's MUCH better ways to teach pups in a controlled class. I use play in class to teach pups to recall from distractions. Much more effective in a real world situation - a confident pup won't give two hoots about an interrupter and a worried pup can get a real fright.

[skip]

Sounds like you are a good puppy owner! Lots good tips.

I don't really have to tell my dogs "no".

Just call them or ask them to do something else. Sometimes I might say"really!!" To my Kelpie which for some reason makes her reconsider her choice. Lots of effort early on pays off when you end up with easy dogs as adults.

Please need breed and photo

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

closest I get to "no" with my dog is "no reward for that"...

Drives my brother nuts but my dog has zero incentive to do/not do anything he says anyway.

I use "its yer choice" games to teach her to make good choices like asking permission to eat something, or just leaving it alone. we're not perfect but my breakky is safe on the coffee table if I go back to the kitchen for the coffee. However - there is quite a bit of "reminding" she does when the brekky bowl is empty - cos somebody (me maybe) has been rewarding that with the opportunity to do "pre-rinse". we're currently doing a bit of adjusting on that.

Trying to "punish" a dog - ie apply an aversive to get the dog to not-do something is risky because dogs (and people) can make the wrong connection eg - it's ok to pee in the house as long as the boss doesn't see me... instead of rewarding peeing outside and preventing peeing inside.

And what a dog finds aversive/punishing can be interesting too - if you actually do try that as a way to train a dog "not to"... you find you have to increase the volume of it to get the same effect. But if you use largely reward based training and the most severe aversive you use is "no treat for that" - it's amazing how hard the dog will work trying to figure out what they need to do to get that treat.

And then you get some stuff that reminds you -only reward when you cue the behaviour - like I taught my dog how to "shut the door" so now she shuts the door and then barks at it - because - hey treats and I can't get to my water bowl now cos I shut the door. Cracks me up. Which she reads as a reward. Oops.