Nsw To Ban Greyhound Racing From July 2017

[asal]

I see the angle you are coming from but to compare the incredibly diverse people who have dogs for equally diverse reasons to being the body of a single dog with cancer that the whole dog has to die because you cant separate the cancer from the dog as an analogy that all dog owners have to be eliminated to get rid of the cancer is just as ingenuious as you accuse me of in comparing the problem with a war. This is a war, ask any AR campaigner, they think this war is in its final stages, is almost won.

Are we talking about greyhounds here or dogs in general? Because this discussion is specifically about greyhound racing and that really narrows down the people involved. The vast majority of participants are involved to make money. If money was not the reason for their involvement, dogs wouldn't be discarded like used tissues. If they were truly in it for the love of the dogs, they wouldn't be shooting the dogs, dumping the dogs, overbeeding the dogs to the point that rehoming them all becomes impossible. If it was "just a hobby", they sure as hell wouldn't be dropping $10k on a pup or constantly looking for ways to illicitly gain an advantage.

I'm starting to think that if you're so cool with the industry, maybe YOU should try cleaning up after them. Put your money where your mouth is- you seem to think nothing much is wrong so if that's the case, becoming a greyhound rescuer should be easy work, right?

in case you havent noticed the war is going on in other fronts, greyhounds was almost a winner, victory may have been postponed for a while but still ongoing, those neat little laws hopefully passed in victoria will be shoved forward for all states it will effectively shut down all as will the greyhound agenda. do you really think this isnt all linked?

If you haven't noticed, the neddys are in the sights too

Edited November 8, 2016 by asal

[m-j]

Can you honestly say you were surprised by this?

I don't want to see the breed disappear through the complete banning of racing but it seems like the arrogance of those involved is just.. incredible. As soon as they believed they had won, it was back to business as usual. Apparently they'd already reformed enough and everything is fine. A greyhound trainer in Sydney was charged with live baiting the day before the ban was lifted but that's okay because reform, reviews, some paid "research", a liberal application of smoke and mirrors and.. everything is fine. The public can stop looking now, back to business.

Not really but I was hoping. legislation is harder to get around and gives people who complain more power and more places to go to when they do complain.

I don't think reforms, research, reviews and smoke and mirrors is what won the day for the industry, these were all present when Baird decided to ban racing, people power is what did it for them, the squeaky wheel etc they were very proactive.

If those outside the industry with knowledge on the rot in the industry had stopped sitting on their hands and spoken up and they be the squeaky wheel, they may have been able to keep Baird from changing his mind.

[westiemum]

Good posts.

Patience everyone - as I keep saying it will sort itself out - it will just be a slower death to the industry now, given I believe it's completely incapable of change - and it would seem the 'business as usual' since the removal of the bans just proves my point.

And I'm sorry for any 'collateral damage' - but so many of these people stood by and did nothing making them as culpable as the perpetrators of such abject cruelty and misery. asal the paedophile analogy is a good one as exactly the same thing happened there - similarly so many people actively covered it up or turned a blind eye and it took a number of Royal Commissions sadly to get to the bottom it (and sadly I suspect we haven't seen the end of that ) - and those who 'turned a blind eye' are now being seen as culpable as the perpetrators - and the same will happen here - sexual assault of children and young people, abject cruelty to animals - all deserve to have the key thrown away IMO.

I don't believe there is one person - not one - on DOL who in the same position as the majority of this industry who would have stood by and done nothing. We are a great community and set high standards for ourselves and our members - and we expect the same from others.

Westiemum,

Re paedophilia: The society we lived in in the days when paedophilia was routinely covered up was a different world. The expectations of the community were not as they are today.

Because it was an issue that was taboo for discussion- Sexuality and expectations of sexuality were not discussed. Even families of the victims, or victims themselves often covered up the abuse because sexuality was for behind closed doors and to discuss these matters left people feeling exposed and vulnerable.Dirty. Even to consider the issues.

Its open discussion that has lead to the change.

Recognition. That human beings are sexual animals with diverse aspects to their sexuality. Recognition of our sexuality and its diverse aspects. THAT has enabled us to form common expectations- That a persons sexuality is their own business, as it should be, until it harms some one else. What constitutes 'harm'.

We Recognize the diversity. We accept it AS PART of the HUMAN condition. Unless someone forces another to accept what they can't. Forces their diverse sexuality on another, who is unable for any reason to accept that 'Type' of sexuality. As in a minor who hasn't the maturity, or an adult who simply chooses not to.

The same people being pilloried for holding their silence back then, would likely react to the allegations differently today. Because the expectations of the community are better understood. Their responsibility to those expectations are better understood.

Such abuses today are less likely to occurr, far more likely to be reported, and far more likely to be acted on. Not because people are better, but because they are more able to respond to the expectations we hold in common. Because the issues were recognized as community or human issue. We discussed the issues to reach agreement.

Its not perfect and never will be because we can't control the environment and how it will affect people, based on their diversity.But it keeps improving as our recognition of the common problems does. Through discussion.

It didn't happen overnight. Its taken a generation. That seems to be normal in changing expectations. But the average generation of a greyhound racing identity, or a pedigree dog breeder is shorter than that humans life span.

The recognition and discussion tho' are needed before anything at all can be done to form to the common expectations, and then for people to respond to them when they are clear.

Sadly for the Greyhound industry, dog racing is no longer a common pursuit. Its limited to Greyhound owners.

I think change would come given time, but it will still always be out of step with the community, so not viable.

Because theres no common expectation to be reached when its always going to be type of dog 1st for the identities involved. That doesn't include the community in the disscussion. Only one type is acceptable to the industries purpose, A greyhound owner type.

Pedigree breeders are in the same boat. They recognize a few more types, but they are still not inclusive of community expectations for their purpose. Only pedigree types.

Theres no recognition that any one else could share their purpose, so go off on their own and wonder at backlash.

Moosmum we will have to agree to disagree. I hope I've understood you correctly. The standards for the treatment of children and animals are set by our society, not select parts of society such as the greyhound industry of it which carve out parts of it for themselves and think they can do what they like. They can't.

People have hidden behind the 'it was different times' argument for years. People knew then abuse of young children was wrong and have since said so (and showed by their actions at the time they knew it was wrong) and its still wrong now. The covering up and turning a blind eye to paedophilia is still happening - until recently, I used to deal with it for a community organisation - and no it isn't less common. And people are still turning a blind eye. Read the Nyland Royal Commission report and case study five in particular. Its also evolving into different forms and regardless of diversity IMO the abuse of animals and children is never OK and never has been.

As I've said before, IMO the conditions for sustainable change do not exist in this industry. Common expectations are only part of the story. If this industry wants to survive it must change and to change takes leadership, resources and expertise - and a ton of it over time which does not seem to be there. And people are already reporting it's back to 'business as usual' and I have no doubt further evidence of that will be make public sooner rather than later. (Please read previous posts).

I take your point about the exclusiveness of the greyhound community - and thats precisely my point too. We live in a society where the views of broader community count and until the industry learns and respects that (which I doubt they ever will if it is back to 'business as usual') their industry will continue to live on borrowed time.

Edited November 8, 2016 by westiemum

[asal]

I see the angle you are coming from but to compare the incredibly diverse people who have dogs for equally diverse reasons to being the body of a single dog with cancer that the whole dog has to die because you cant separate the cancer from the dog as an analogy that all dog owners have to be eliminated to get rid of the cancer is just as ingenuious as you accuse me of in comparing the problem with a war. This is a war, ask any AR campaigner, they think this war is in its final stages, is almost won.

Are we talking about greyhounds here or dogs in general? Because this discussion is specifically about greyhound racing and that really narrows down the people involved. The vast majority of participants are involved to make money. If money was not the reason for their involvement, dogs wouldn't be discarded like used tissues. If they were truly in it for the love of the dogs, they wouldn't be shooting the dogs, dumping the dogs, overbeeding the dogs to the point that rehoming them all becomes impossible. If it was "just a hobby", they sure as hell wouldn't be dropping $10k on a pup or constantly looking for ways to illicitly gain an advantage.

I'm starting to think that if you're so cool with the industry, maybe YOU should try cleaning up after them. Put your money where your mouth is- you seem to think nothing much is wrong so if that's the case, becoming a greyhound rescuer should be easy work, right?

I do understand the likelyhood of what I say below will make no sense to you. perhaps better minds can explain what I am trying to get across with better words and explanation.

Ok if joe public can’t be responsible we need laws to force this, we need rules to make Joe public feel if they do not toe the ethical line they have forfeited the right to decide for themselves, particularly in the case of the rights of the animals they keep.

Joe public if they buy an animal be it a companion animal like a dog, a cat, a bird.... whatever fits that description. If they buy a horse or a pony, even if they breed it, to be a responsible Joe public, once they have that animal they and they alone are responsible for its well being and care for the life of that animal. If their circumstances change and unable to keep it, to sell is selfish and not thinking of the best interests of the animal they had undertaken the life care of. If that animal develops health or mental problems, Joe public can’t decide to either rehome it or euthanize it, That is shirking the responsibility the purchase had promised that animal for its natural life.

In the case of a horse that can be for 30 years or more, no more reselling to someone else to enjoy instead, or if health or temperament issues arise no having it put down or sold for slaughter if they no longer have the will or the interest or the facilities to keep it. Same for any other species of animal, dog cat or whatever.

YET. How many tens of thousands of animals of every domestic species is “euthanized” be it by bullet or injection, every year, not only for age, health and let’s not forget the infamous temperament test failure by the very organisation that is leading the charge to have Joe public held accountable, shame able and chargeable for deciding to exercise their (so they thought) legal right to dispose of or euthanize their purchase or bred? For the very same reasons the organisation that is demanding they have no such rights? Does to any animal they take control of? The majority ARE KILLED. Steve Coleman said on National media 70% of all greyhounds are culled because they either fail the temperament tests or homes are not available. Yet the owners who have not sent their dogs to his organisation should have them taken because they cannot be trusted to rehome them responsibly, they forfeited their right because of the numbers he can proved have been put down by their owners, yet he intends killing an even higher percentage but the sheeple don’t read the real figures and ask what is going on here.

Notice the headlines of the thousands of greyhounds killed not per year, the figure per year wasn’t shocking enough, what was it 5 year total ? 12 year total. Joe public doesn’t read all the press release just skims and spots the huge cruel figure.

The was it 70 or 170 bodies found in a grave on a property, their owner is by law has the right to put down their animals if they so choose as long as it is done humanely, I can remember the headlines many of the dogs had been shot, in country areas that is considered humane, gee you can see special Constable Ashton shooting cattle as they are chased through a gate and being shot twice and three times before they died yet it is called “euthanasia” yet abattoirs’ have been shut down for less, right now an abattoir is being threatened with prosecution because one hit of the captive bolt did not render SOME stock instantly unconscious and it was captured on video. A rifle shot into a running bovine is NOT euthanasia if you did it, how can it be relabelled as such when Ashton does it? There is photographs to support he did so, on more than one occasion, in one video a member of staff resigned on the video rather than be involved in the coming slaughter, yet no prosecution has ever been contemplated

When, if ever are the sheeple going to wake up the very organisation wanting to control all animal rights in this country and the people who own them do exactly what they say is why the sheeple should have their rights to decide their animals welfare be taken away from them?

But the AR mob know they are on to a good thing educating and training sheeple, get the numbers right, the headlines right and sheeple don’t read the details in between.

Ask any breeder who has put an add with the colour, sex, price, date of pickup, vet checked, vaccinated, wormed, chipped and dna tested litter and what are the very questions the majority of callers ask? You don’t need two guesses , just repeat after me what is above. Some get annoyed and suggest perhaps they read the add. Doesn’t pay to get annoyed, they are doing what AR know. The majority of people don’t read what’s there, they skim. See the bit that catches their attention and remember that and that only.

Don’t forget if the new laws being pushed for in Victoria get through a breeder, EVERY breeder greyhounds included, is denied the right to keep their retired breeding dog or dogs, they must choose to either rehome or euthanize it? And what is one of the prime crimes of a puppy farmer? They don’t keep their breeding dogs after they are retired, yet this mob want that right removed from anyone owning an entire female used for breeding? Wake up sheeple!

Edited November 8, 2016 by asal

[westiemum]

Can you honestly say you were surprised by this?

I don't want to see the breed disappear through the complete banning of racing but it seems like the arrogance of those involved is just.. incredible. As soon as they believed they had won, it was back to business as usual. Apparently they'd already reformed enough and everything is fine. A greyhound trainer in Sydney was charged with live baiting the day before the ban was lifted but that's okay because reform, reviews, some paid "research", a liberal application of smoke and mirrors and.. everything is fine. The public can stop looking now, back to business.

Not really but I was hoping. legislation is harder to get around and gives people who complain more power and more places to go to when they do complain.

I don't think reforms, research, reviews and smoke and mirrors is what won the day for the industry, these were all present when Baird decided to ban racing, people power is what did it for them, the squeaky wheel etc they were very proactive.

If those outside the industry with knowledge on the rot in the industry had stopped sitting on their hands and spoken up and they be the squeaky wheel, they may have been able to keep Baird from changing his mind.

Agreed. Good post.

[moosmum]

Good posts.

Patience everyone - as I keep saying it will sort itself out - it will just be a slower death to the industry now, given I believe it's completely incapable of change - and it would seem the 'business as usual' since the removal of the bans just proves my point.

And I'm sorry for any 'collateral damage' - but so many of these people stood by and did nothing making them as culpable as the perpetrators of such abject cruelty and misery. asal the paedophile analogy is a good one as exactly the same thing happened there - similarly so many people actively covered it up or turned a blind eye and it took a number of Royal Commissions sadly to get to the bottom it (and sadly I suspect we haven't seen the end of that ) - and those who 'turned a blind eye' are now being seen as culpable as the perpetrators - and the same will happen here - sexual assault of children and young people, abject cruelty to animals - all deserve to have the key thrown away IMO.

I don't believe there is one person - not one - on DOL who in the same position as the majority of this industry who would have stood by and done nothing. We are a great community and set high standards for ourselves and our members - and we expect the same from others.

Westiemum,

Re paedophilia: The society we lived in in the days when paedophilia was routinely covered up was a different world. The expectations of the community were not as they are today.

Because it was an issue that was taboo for discussion- Sexuality and expectations of sexuality were not discussed. Even families of the victims, or victims themselves often covered up the abuse because sexuality was for behind closed doors and to discuss these matters left people feeling exposed and vulnerable.Dirty. Even to consider the issues.

Its open discussion that has lead to the change.

Recognition. That human beings are sexual animals with diverse aspects to their sexuality. Recognition of our sexuality and its diverse aspects. THAT has enabled us to form common expectations- That a persons sexuality is their own business, as it should be, until it harms some one else. What constitutes 'harm'.

We Recognize the diversity. We accept it AS PART of the HUMAN condition. Unless someone forces another to accept what they can't. Forces their diverse sexuality on another, who is unable for any reason to accept that 'Type' of sexuality. As in a minor who hasn't the maturity, or an adult who simply chooses not to.

The same people being pilloried for holding their silence back then, would likely react to the allegations differently today. Because the expectations of the community are better understood. Their responsibility to those expectations are better understood.

Such abuses today are less likely to occurr, far more likely to be reported, and far more likely to be acted on. Not because people are better, but because they are more able to respond to the expectations we hold in common. Because the issues were recognized as community or human issue. We discussed the issues to reach agreement.

Its not perfect and never will be because we can't control the environment and how it will affect people, based on their diversity.But it keeps improving as our recognition of the common problems does. Through discussion.

It didn't happen overnight. Its taken a generation. That seems to be normal in changing expectations. But the average generation of a greyhound racing identity, or a pedigree dog breeder is shorter than that humans life span.

The recognition and discussion tho' are needed before anything at all can be done to form to the common expectations, and then for people to respond to them when they are clear.

Sadly for the Greyhound industry, dog racing is no longer a common pursuit. Its limited to Greyhound owners.

I think change would come given time, but it will still always be out of step with the community, so not viable.

Because theres no common expectation to be reached when its always going to be type of dog 1st for the identities involved. That doesn't include the community in the disscussion. Only one type is acceptable to the industries purpose, A greyhound owner type.

Pedigree breeders are in the same boat. They recognize a few more types, but they are still not inclusive of community expectations for their purpose. Only pedigree types.

Theres no recognition that any one else could share their purpose, so go off on their own and wonder at backlash.

Moosmum we will have to agree to disagree. I hope I've understood you correctly. The standards for the treatment of children and animals are set by our society, not select parts of society such as the greyhound industry of it which carve out parts of it for themselves and think they can do what they like. They can't.

People have hidden behind the 'it was different times' argument for years. People knew then abuse of young children was wrong and have since said so (and showed by their actions at the time they knew it was wrong) and its still wrong now. The covering up and turning a blind eye to paedophilia is still happening - until recently, I used to deal with it for a community organisation - and no it isn't less common. And people are still turning a blind eye. Read the Nyland Royal Commission report and case study five in particular. Its also evolving into different forms and regardless of diversity IMO the abuse of animals and children is never OK and never has been.

As I've said before, IMO the conditions for sustainable change do not exist in this industry. Common expectations are only part of the story. If this industry wants to survive it must change and to change takes leadership, resources and expertise - and a ton of it over time which does not seem to be there. And people are already reporting it's back to 'business as usual' and I have no doubt further evidence of that will be make public sooner rather than later. (Please read previous posts).

I take your point about the exclusiveness of the greyhound community - and thats precisely my point too. We live in a society where the views of broader community count and until the industry learns and respects that (which I doubt they ever will if it is back to 'business as usual') their industry will continue to live on borrowed time.

Yep. I think we understand each other :D

I do think the paedophilia issue is changing for the better, slowly, and is more likely to be reported these days, and will continue to improve, but never be gone either. So we agree to to disagree on that.People are also more aware of its prevalence, so more chance of picking up on it.

For the rest, I agree They Greyhound industry is unlikely to ever to meet community expectations because it is so isolated and I can't see that ever changing. especialy this late in the game.

Maddy.

Asal said it. Its all connected.

I am not defending the Grey hound racing industry, though I do regret a whole purpose for keeping dogs is being lost,( and sooner or later, likely the breed) because it was deemed an exclusive 'property' requiring a certain 'type' of person.

I prefer they have this chance, tho' I think it will be blown. Because they won't accept that the sport could be turned into a more common one, with more public oversight by doing that.I think it would allow the industry to get in step and stay in step with community expectations, given time.

I doubt they have time now.

Its an exclusive interest to greyhound owners and I doubt there is any way now to convince them it could be otherwise. They have no wish to respond to the sport in any other way.

As for the difference of people not obeying leash laws and people who deliberately encourage a dog to tear a live animal apart- The person who gets attacked, or sees their child atttacked, or their pet torn apart in front of their very eyes because some idiot thought leash laws are for those 'other' people isn't going to make that distinction.

Off leash dogs biting, causing accidents, peeing and crapping on other peoples lawns, attacking guide dogs etc is a lot more personal when any one can be exposed to it just walking out their front door.

Making money, over producing, most of those other things you listed are NOT exclusive to the grey hound industry. A precedent has been set. A new level of expectation.

The Govt. can make problems concerning dogs go away.

Theres lots of them.

And there are fewer people left to be affected by the 'new standards' each time they are passed. Fewer people left to demonstrate better responses.

Pedigree breeders would be smart to notice the similarities.

Edited November 8, 2016 by moosmum

[The Spotted Devil]

asal Greyhounds will be exempt in Vic. They come unde the racing code.

[asal]

asal Greyhounds will be exempt in Vic. They come unde the racing code.

sarcasm alert perhaps,

interesting, so they wont have to register as a business, get council permit, get an abn or the 10 million insurance? and allowed to keep their retired dogs?

perhaps everyone should call their dogs greyhounds and race them, even if its only once in their lifetime?

Edited November 8, 2016 by asal

[The Spotted Devil]

asal Greyhounds will be exempt in Vic. They come unde the racing code.

sarcasm alert perhaps,

interesting, so they wont have to register as a business, get council permit, get an abn or the 10 million insurance? and allowed to keep their retired dogs?

perhaps everyone should call their dogs greyhounds and race them, even if its only once in their lifetime?

Well there are still council approvals required - an article on the paper about a council kicking a Greyhound breeder out. A Local Laws issue rather than a welfare issue by the sounds of it.

[asal]

asal Greyhounds will be exempt in Vic. They come unde the racing code.

sarcasm alert perhaps,

interesting, so they wont have to register as a business, get council permit, get an abn or the 10 million insurance? and allowed to keep their retired dogs?

perhaps everyone should call their dogs greyhounds and race them, even if its only once in their lifetime?

Well there are still council approvals required - an article on the paper about a council kicking a Greyhound breeder out. A Local Laws issue rather than a welfare issue by the sounds of it.

does anyone here honestly think many councils will permit the owner of even one female to register their suburban home as an animal rearing BUSINESS?

At a guess this will eliminate 90% if not more of people who live in the suburbs and as Telstra so loves to remind us, their coverage is of 98% of australians. What they dont mention is 90% live in the burbs and the city. Only 8% of those in the country can get reception. many only if they stand on one foot, with their tongue hanging out to the left AND on the highest corner of the property nearest to a tower. We have a property in Gilgandra and there is only one spot where there is reception and its not in the house so tough luck if its raining and u want to make a mobile call.

where is the 90% who own pets and are breeders? It isnt the country is it?

I recall when the then NSWCC did a survey and discovered something like 80% of long time members and the backbone of the registry were the over 60's and prodominatly pensioners. eliminate that demographic and its endangered species listing if it isnt nearing that already for some

Edited November 8, 2016 by asal

[westiemum]

Good posts.

Patience everyone - as I keep saying it will sort itself out - it will just be a slower death to the industry now, given I believe it's completely incapable of change - and it would seem the 'business as usual' since the removal of the bans just proves my point.

And I'm sorry for any 'collateral damage' - but so many of these people stood by and did nothing making them as culpable as the perpetrators of such abject cruelty and misery. asal the paedophile analogy is a good one as exactly the same thing happened there - similarly so many people actively covered it up or turned a blind eye and it took a number of Royal Commissions sadly to get to the bottom it (and sadly I suspect we haven't seen the end of that ) - and those who 'turned a blind eye' are now being seen as culpable as the perpetrators - and the same will happen here - sexual assault of children and young people, abject cruelty to animals - all deserve to have the key thrown away IMO.

I don't believe there is one person - not one - on DOL who in the same position as the majority of this industry who would have stood by and done nothing. We are a great community and set high standards for ourselves and our members - and we expect the same from others.

Westiemum,

Re paedophilia: The society we lived in in the days when paedophilia was routinely covered up was a different world. The expectations of the community were not as they are today.

Because it was an issue that was taboo for discussion- Sexuality and expectations of sexuality were not discussed. Even families of the victims, or victims themselves often covered up the abuse because sexuality was for behind closed doors and to discuss these matters left people feeling exposed and vulnerable.Dirty. Even to consider the issues.

Its open discussion that has lead to the change.

Recognition. That human beings are sexual animals with diverse aspects to their sexuality. Recognition of our sexuality and its diverse aspects. THAT has enabled us to form common expectations- That a persons sexuality is their own business, as it should be, until it harms some one else. What constitutes 'harm'.

We Recognize the diversity. We accept it AS PART of the HUMAN condition. Unless someone forces another to accept what they can't. Forces their diverse sexuality on another, who is unable for any reason to accept that 'Type' of sexuality. As in a minor who hasn't the maturity, or an adult who simply chooses not to.

The same people being pilloried for holding their silence back then, would likely react to the allegations differently today. Because the expectations of the community are better understood. Their responsibility to those expectations are better understood.

Such abuses today are less likely to occurr, far more likely to be reported, and far more likely to be acted on. Not because people are better, but because they are more able to respond to the expectations we hold in common. Because the issues were recognized as community or human issue. We discussed the issues to reach agreement.

Its not perfect and never will be because we can't control the environment and how it will affect people, based on their diversity.But it keeps improving as our recognition of the common problems does. Through discussion.

It didn't happen overnight. Its taken a generation. That seems to be normal in changing expectations. But the average generation of a greyhound racing identity, or a pedigree dog breeder is shorter than that humans life span.

The recognition and discussion tho' are needed before anything at all can be done to form to the common expectations, and then for people to respond to them when they are clear.

Sadly for the Greyhound industry, dog racing is no longer a common pursuit. Its limited to Greyhound owners.

I think change would come given time, but it will still always be out of step with the community, so not viable.

Because theres no common expectation to be reached when its always going to be type of dog 1st for the identities involved. That doesn't include the community in the disscussion. Only one type is acceptable to the industries purpose, A greyhound owner type.

Pedigree breeders are in the same boat. They recognize a few more types, but they are still not inclusive of community expectations for their purpose. Only pedigree types.

Theres no recognition that any one else could share their purpose, so go off on their own and wonder at backlash.

Moosmum we will have to agree to disagree. I hope I've understood you correctly. The standards for the treatment of children and animals are set by our society, not select parts of society such as the greyhound industry of it which carve out parts of it for themselves and think they can do what they like. They can't.

People have hidden behind the 'it was different times' argument for years. People knew then abuse of young children was wrong and have since said so (and showed by their actions at the time they knew it was wrong) and its still wrong now. The covering up and turning a blind eye to paedophilia is still happening - until recently, I used to deal with it for a community organisation - and no it isn't less common. And people are still turning a blind eye. Read the Nyland Royal Commission report and case study five in particular. Its also evolving into different forms and regardless of diversity IMO the abuse of animals and children is never OK and never has been.

As I've said before, IMO the conditions for sustainable change do not exist in this industry. Common expectations are only part of the story. If this industry wants to survive it must change and to change takes leadership, resources and expertise - and a ton of it over time which does not seem to be there. And people are already reporting it's back to 'business as usual' and I have no doubt further evidence of that will be make public sooner rather than later. (Please read previous posts).

I take your point about the exclusiveness of the greyhound community - and thats precisely my point too. We live in a society where the views of broader community count and until the industry learns and respects that (which I doubt they ever will if it is back to 'business as usual') their industry will continue to live on borrowed time.

Yep. I think we understand each other :D

I do think the paedophilia issue is changing for the better, slowly, and is more likely to be reported these days, and will continue to improve, but never be gone either. So we agree to to disagree on that.People are also more aware of its prevalence, so more chance of picking up on it.

For the rest, I agree They Greyhound industry is unlikely to ever to meet community expectations because it is so isolated and I can't see that ever changing. especialy this late in the game.

Maddy.

Asal said it. Its all connected.

I am not defending the Grey hound racing industry, though I do regret a whole purpose for keeping dogs is being lost,( and sooner or later, likely the breed) because it was deemed an exclusive 'property' requiring a certain 'type' of person.

I prefer they have this chance, tho' I think it will be blown. Because they won't accept that the sport could be turned into a more common one, with more public oversight by doing that.I think it would allow the industry to get in step and stay in step with community expectations, given time.

I doubt they have time now.

Its an exclusive interest to greyhound owners and I doubt there is any way now to convince them it could be otherwise. They have no wish to respond to the sport in any other way.

As for the difference of people not obeying leash laws and people who deliberately encourage a dog to tear a live animal apart- The person who gets attacked, or sees their child atttacked, or their pet torn apart in front of their very eyes because some idiot thought leash laws are for those 'other' people isn't going to make that distinction.

Off leash dogs biting, causing accidents, peeing and crapping on other peoples lawns, attacking guide dogs etc is a lot more personal when any one can be exposed to it just walking out their front door.

Making money, over producing, most of those other things you listed are NOT exclusive to the grey hound industry. A precedent has been set. A new level of expectation.

The Govt. can make problems concerning dogs go away.

Theres lots of them.

And there are fewer people left to be affected by the 'new standards' each time they are passed. Fewer people left to demonstrate better responses.

Pedigree breeders would be smart to notice the similarities.

Yep we're on the same page. Although there will be thousands of greys to rehome, I like to think that even without the greyhound racing industry the breed would survive - and possibly evolve into a valued companion breed if enough of us take them on - they are certainly on my list and I suggest them as a rescue option whenever I can.

And yes pedigree breeders (and the horse racing industry) would be wise to notice the similarities. If they are smart, through their peak bodies they will self-initiate an industry-wide 'audit' (or something similar) of their members now to identify problems and deal with them so the same thing doesn't happen to them.

Edited November 8, 2016 by westiemum

[The Spotted Devil]

asal Greyhounds will be exempt in Vic. They come unde the racing code.

sarcasm alert perhaps,

interesting, so they wont have to register as a business, get council permit, get an abn or the 10 million insurance? and allowed to keep their retired dogs?

perhaps everyone should call their dogs greyhounds and race them, even if its only once in their lifetime?

Well there are still council approvals required - an article on the paper about a council kicking a Greyhound breeder out. A Local Laws issue rather than a welfare issue by the sounds of it.

does anyone here honestly think many councils will permit the owner of even one female to register their suburban home as an animal rearing BUSINESS?

At a guess this will eliminate 90% if not more of people who live in the suburbs and as Telstra so loves to remind us, their coverage is of 98% of australians. What they dont mention is 90% live in the burbs and the city. Only 8% of those in the country can get reception. many only if they stand on one foot, with their tongue hanging out to the left AND on the highest corner of the property nearest to a tower. We have a property in Gilgandra and there is only one spot where there is reception and its not in the house so tough luck if its raining and u want to make a mobile call.

where is the 90% who own pets and are breeders? It isnt the country is it?

I recall when the then NSWCC did a survey and discovered something like 80% of long time members and the backbone of the registry were the over 60's and prodominatly pensioners. eliminate that demographic and its endangered species listing if it isnt nearing that already for some

The government have suggested in emails to Dogs Vic members that the problem is in calling it a "business" so now they are offering to change the name to a breeder permit. Ah yes, that will flush out all the people that never advertise or sell on social media.

[asal]

asal Greyhounds will be exempt in Vic. They come unde the racing code.

sarcasm alert perhaps,

interesting, so they wont have to register as a business, get council permit, get an abn or the 10 million insurance? and allowed to keep their retired dogs?

perhaps everyone should call their dogs greyhounds and race them, even if its only once in their lifetime?

Well there are still council approvals required - an article on the paper about a council kicking a Greyhound breeder out. A Local Laws issue rather than a welfare issue by the sounds of it.

does anyone here honestly think many councils will permit the owner of even one female to register their suburban home as an animal rearing BUSINESS?

At a guess this will eliminate 90% if not more of people who live in the suburbs and as Telstra so loves to remind us, their coverage is of 98% of australians. What they dont mention is 90% live in the burbs and the city. Only 8% of those in the country can get reception. many only if they stand on one foot, with their tongue hanging out to the left AND on the highest corner of the property nearest to a tower. We have a property in Gilgandra and there is only one spot where there is reception and its not in the house so tough luck if its raining and u want to make a mobile call.

where is the 90% who own pets and are breeders? It isnt the country is it?

I recall when the then NSWCC did a survey and discovered something like 80% of long time members and the backbone of the registry were the over 60's and prodominatly pensioners. eliminate that demographic and its endangered species listing if it isnt nearing that already for some

The government have suggested in emails to Dogs Vic members that the problem is in calling it a "business" so now they are offering to change the name to a breeder permit. Ah yes, that will flush out all the people that never advertise or sell on social media.

I doubt it will "flush" even one, but eliminating a high percentage of the members of Dogs Vic is certainly on the cards

[The Spotted Devil]

asal Greyhounds will be exempt in Vic. They come unde the racing code.

sarcasm alert perhaps,

interesting, so they wont have to register as a business, get council permit, get an abn or the 10 million insurance? and allowed to keep their retired dogs?

perhaps everyone should call their dogs greyhounds and race them, even if its only once in their lifetime?

Well there are still council approvals required - an article on the paper about a council kicking a Greyhound breeder out. A Local Laws issue rather than a welfare issue by the sounds of it.

does anyone here honestly think many councils will permit the owner of even one female to register their suburban home as an animal rearing BUSINESS?

At a guess this will eliminate 90% if not more of people who live in the suburbs and as Telstra so loves to remind us, their coverage is of 98% of australians. What they dont mention is 90% live in the burbs and the city. Only 8% of those in the country can get reception. many only if they stand on one foot, with their tongue hanging out to the left AND on the highest corner of the property nearest to a tower. We have a property in Gilgandra and there is only one spot where there is reception and its not in the house so tough luck if its raining and u want to make a mobile call.

where is the 90% who own pets and are breeders? It isnt the country is it?

I recall when the then NSWCC did a survey and discovered something like 80% of long time members and the backbone of the registry were the over 60's and prodominatly pensioners. eliminate that demographic and its endangered species listing if it isnt nearing that already for some

The government have suggested in emails to Dogs Vic members that the problem is in calling it a "business" so now they are offering to change the name to a breeder permit. Ah yes, that will flush out all the people that never advertise or sell on social media.

I doubt it will "flush" even one, but eliminating a high percentage of the members of Dogs Vic is certainly on the cards

Yup. We are not giving up I can tell you.

[Rebanne]

Don’t forget if the new laws being pushed for in Victoria get through a breeder, EVERY breeder greyhounds included, is denied the right to keep their retired breeding dog or dogs, they must choose to either rehome or euthanize it? And what is one of the prime crimes of a puppy farmer? They don’t keep their breeding dogs after they are retired, yet this mob want that right removed from anyone owning an entire female used for breeding? Wake up sheeple!

Actually that is incorrect. It is recommended that dogs that are no longer in a breeding program are rehomed or euthanized. Not that they must do so.

[Rebanne]

I like to think that even without the greyhound racing industry the breed would survive - and possibly evolve into a valued companion breed if enough of us take them on - they are certainly on my list and I suggest them as a rescue option whenever I can.

The breed will survive and they are already "evolved" into a valued companion breed.

[The Spotted Devil]

Don’t forget if the new laws being pushed for in Victoria get through a breeder, EVERY breeder greyhounds included, is denied the right to keep their retired breeding dog or dogs, they must choose to either rehome or euthanize it? And what is one of the prime crimes of a puppy farmer? They don’t keep their breeding dogs after they are retired, yet this mob want that right removed from anyone owning an entire female used for breeding? Wake up sheeple!

Actually that is incorrect. It is recommended that dogs that are no longer in a breeding program are rehomed or euthanized. Not that they must do so.

Yes you are right. But makes it hard for those who have oldies on the couch if they have over 5 dogs and want to breed. $20,000 + for kennels...

Edited November 9, 2016 by The Spotted Devil

[HazyWal]

Good posts.

Patience everyone - as I keep saying it will sort itself out - it will just be a slower death to the industry now, given I believe it's completely incapable of change - and it would seem the 'business as usual' since the removal of the bans just proves my point.

And I'm sorry for any 'collateral damage' - but so many of these people stood by and did nothing making them as culpable as the perpetrators of such abject cruelty and misery. asal the paedophile analogy is a good one as exactly the same thing happened there - similarly so many people actively covered it up or turned a blind eye and it took a number of Royal Commissions sadly to get to the bottom it (and sadly I suspect we haven't seen the end of that ) - and those who 'turned a blind eye' are now being seen as culpable as the perpetrators - and the same will happen here - sexual assault of children and young people, abject cruelty to animals - all deserve to have the key thrown away IMO.

I don't believe there is one person - not one - on DOL who in the same position as the majority of this industry who would have stood by and done nothing. We are a great community and set high standards for ourselves and our members - and we expect the same from others.

WM I'm interested to know how many people you personally know in the greyhound industry. Have you been to a kennel or breeding/rearing facility or at least attended a track? Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't you only recently meet a greyhound for the first time?

[westiemum]

Good posts.

Patience everyone - as I keep saying it will sort itself out - it will just be a slower death to the industry now, given I believe it's completely incapable of change - and it would seem the 'business as usual' since the removal of the bans just proves my point.

And I'm sorry for any 'collateral damage' - but so many of these people stood by and did nothing making them as culpable as the perpetrators of such abject cruelty and misery. asal the paedophile analogy is a good one as exactly the same thing happened there - similarly so many people actively covered it up or turned a blind eye and it took a number of Royal Commissions sadly to get to the bottom it (and sadly I suspect we haven't seen the end of that ) - and those who 'turned a blind eye' are now being seen as culpable as the perpetrators - and the same will happen here - sexual assault of children and young people, abject cruelty to animals - all deserve to have the key thrown away IMO.

I don't believe there is one person - not one - on DOL who in the same position as the majority of this industry who would have stood by and done nothing. We are a great community and set high standards for ourselves and our members - and we expect the same from others.

WM I'm interested to know how many people you personally know in the greyhound industry. Have you been to a kennel or breeding/rearing facility or at least attended a track? Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't you only recently meet a greyhound for the first time?

Correcting Hazy. I grew up in a racing family - we owned race horses, I rode and I went to 'the dogs' many times and have been to kennels owned by friends of my father (he always had to be fully involved in everything he did ) .

It was Andy my westie who met a grey for the first time recently - Harley's beautiful Polly - not me. .

[westiemum]

I like to think that even without the greyhound racing industry the breed would survive - and possibly evolve into a valued companion breed if enough of us take them on - they are certainly on my list and I suggest them as a rescue option whenever I can.

The breed will survive and they are already "evolved" into a valued companion breed.

Yes you're right - my bad wording. I was thinking that they would evolve from being valued for racing as well to being valued as companion animals only. And in my mind thats a good thing. The 'survive' comment was a response to those who have been saying the breed will die if the industry dies - which I don't believe.