Nsw To Ban Greyhound Racing From July 2017

[juice]

.

Edited October 12, 2016 by juice

[Lhok]

Corvus I understand. But I stand by what I said. There is one key and one key only to changing this industry so it survives - and that's changing its culture - and not just the 'bad apples'. Everything else is secondary. If that doesn't happen the industry has two to three years tops. And to change culture takes know-how and experience first and foremost - and then huge resources and effort - and I would almost guarantee there is no-one in that industry capable of leading the most important change of the lot.

So the industry will fail. Animals Australia et al will not stop. New investigations will uncover the continuation of live-bating and/or other sickening cruelty - and in the meantime many more greys will suffer and die. And we'll all be here again this time next year and this thread will be picking over the same old bones - and if he's still around, (which is doubtful) Mike Baird is going to rue the day he caved in and he will not be able to cave a second time around. Bookmark it..

Yup that is right, they won't stop. They most certainly won't stop with the close of the greyhound industry either. If you are right and the industry goes in 3-4 years, next it will be horse racing then maybe pets as they have already been clear that they want to stop all animal exploitation.

--Lhok

[corvus]

Corvus I understand. But I stand by what I said. There is one key and one key only to changing this industry so it survives - and that's changing its culture - and not just the 'bad apples'. Everything else is secondary. If that doesn't happen the industry has two to three years tops. And to change culture takes know-how and experience first and foremost - and then huge resources and effort - and I would almost guarantee there is no-one in that industry capable of leading the most important change of the lot.

The reasons why we have legislation and policies and enforcement is to make sure everyone is a part of the culture change whether they want to be or not. There are always people in any community that need that in place. To me, it's more a matter of how much checking and enforcement is going to be necessary and whether that can be achieved. AFAIK, GRNSW are probably in the best position to judge that.

But that's okay, I'm happy to agree to disagree. I kind of have to be optimistic, or I probably wouldn't be doing what I'm doing in the first place.

So the industry will fail. Animals Australia et al will not stop. New investigations will uncover the continuation of live-bating and/or other sickening cruelty - and in the meantime many more greys will suffer and die. And we'll all be here again this time next year and this thread will be picking over the same old bones - and if he's still around, (which is doubtful) Mike Baird is going to rue the day he caved in and he will not be able to cave a second time around. Bookmark it..

Mike Baird could not care less about greyhound welfare. He has caved to save his job, and I bet he's not happy about it. He has undoubtedly incurred damage. He made a misstep and a half and now he has to wear it as best he can. If it all happens again, I doubt he will be bothered. He will just axe it good and proper this time. Provided he has the political support. I expect if he's smart he'll be a lot more careful about making sure he has that if there is a next time. I'd be astonished to see significant political support for the closure of the racehorse industry, or the pet industry. Greyhounds are small fry next to both.

[Rebanne]

I'd be astonished to see significant political support for the closure of the racehorse industry, or the pet industry. Greyhounds are small fry next to both.

you only have to read the subject below this one. Vic dog breeders are in serious trouble if this gets through.

[Sheridan]

I'd be astonished to see significant political support for the closure of the racehorse industry, or the pet industry. Greyhounds are small fry next to both.

you only have to read the subject below this one. Vic dog breeders are in serious trouble if this gets through.

Jaala Pulford once said to me on social media she didn't want to see the end of dog breeding.

[westiemum]

Corvus I understand. But I stand by what I said. There is one key and one key only to changing this industry so it survives - and that's changing its culture - and not just the 'bad apples'. Everything else is secondary. If that doesn't happen the industry has two to three years tops. And to change culture takes know-how and experience first and foremost - and then huge resources and effort - and I would almost guarantee there is no-one in that industry capable of leading the most important change of the lot.

The reasons why we have legislation and policies and enforcement is to make sure everyone is a part of the culture change whether they want to be or not. There are always people in any community that need that in place. To me, it's more a matter of how much checking and enforcement is going to be necessary and whether that can be achieved. AFAIK, GRNSW are probably in the best position to judge that.

But that's okay, I'm happy to agree to disagree. I kind of have to be optimistic, or I probably wouldn't be doing what I'm doing in the first place.

So the industry will fail. Animals Australia et al will not stop. New investigations will uncover the continuation of live-bating and/or other sickening cruelty - and in the meantime many more greys will suffer and die. And we'll all be here again this time next year and this thread will be picking over the same old bones - and if he's still around, (which is doubtful) Mike Baird is going to rue the day he caved in and he will not be able to cave a second time around. Bookmark it..

Mike Baird could not care less about greyhound welfare. He has caved to save his job, and I bet he's not happy about it. He has undoubtedly incurred damage. He made a misstep and a half and now he has to wear it as best he can. If it all happens again, I doubt he will be bothered. He will just axe it good and proper this time. Provided he has the political support. I expect if he's smart he'll be a lot more careful about making sure he has that if there is a next time. I'd be astonished to see significant political support for the closure of the racehorse industry, or the pet industry. Greyhounds are small fry next to both.

Corvus I'm very happy to agree to disagree too. And I so appreciate your optimism. My work means I deal with the poor side of human behaviour on an almost daily basis. So whiIe I always try and see the best in people, I also think I'm a realist - and I recognise that also colours my views. And I genuinely hope I'm wrong - but I don't think so. But we absolutely agree about Baird. This is politics - and animal welfare has not even entered into the equation. - yes I bet he's not happy about it either - but he lives to fight another day - for the moment. And yes I think if he gets another opportunity he'll do it properly next time.

As to culture change, the generally held truth is that you can't legislate behaviour change to change cultures - culture change has to happen with each individual, one by one or small group by small group, which combined becomes cultural change - shared beliefs and values. You literally have to lead by example and bring people along with you. And there is not one shred of evidence that this industry even understands that, let alone has the knowledge and expertise to do it. The live baiting and cruelty will go underground with only superficial change for public show. Scratch the surface and it will still be there, because I have no doubt there is a hard core of people in this industry who believe they shouldn't and won't change and are simply pissed off because they got caught. And the best of the rest turn a blind eye - as they've always done. The investigations will continue and we'll be here again sooner rather than later. Because they genuinely don't believe they've done anything wrong and will thumb their noses at the rest of the community which has clearly said 'enough'! Can you hear the uproar when it happens again? And if not in NSW it will be another state - and around we'll all go again until someone has the guts to call time - do it properly and mean it. .

[Steve]

I'd be astonished to see significant political support for the closure of the racehorse industry, or the pet industry. Greyhounds are small fry next to both.

you only have to read the subject below this one. Vic dog breeders are in serious trouble if this gets through.

Jaala Pulford once said to me on social media she didn't want to see the end of dog breeding.

If she was telling the truth then she should have discussed the strategies with the peopel this law will affect .She stated publicly the current amendments would only affect 90 people in Victoria when in fact they will affect 10s of thousands.

[Two Best Dogs!]

I'd be astonished to see significant political support for the closure of the racehorse industry, or the pet industry. Greyhounds are small fry next to both.

you only have to read the subject below this one. Vic dog breeders are in serious trouble if this gets through.

Jaala Pulford once said to me on social media she didn't want to see the end of dog breeding.

If she was telling the truth then she should have discussed the strategies with the peopel this law will affect .She stated publicly the current amendments would only affect 90 people in Victoria when in fact they will affect 10s of thousands.

Do you mean people like dogs Victoria? Because I thought they were consulted. This Bill isn't exactly out of the blue??

Smaller breeders of pure-bred puppies , who often own only a single breeding pair, are represented by Dogs Victoria. The chairwoman of the organisation's working group on puppy farms, Sylvia Power, welcomed the new legislation – but said when the big commercial breeders went out of business her members would not be able to keep up with demand.

From the age, February - not a well written article but sounds like dogsvic was in favour?

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/pet-shops-dog-breeders-irate-at-cost-of-plan-to-stop-puppy-farms-20150227-13qsvv.html

Something I am forever annoyed with dogs Victoria...it's impossible to find anything on their website! Upcoming concerns, decisions, support, responses to upcoming or new bills...I couldn't even find their in person staff member at the show to get a show bag. ????

[The Spotted Devil]

Thistle that was from February 2015. This is a different and new matter.

[The Spotted Devil]

DV on Facebook (and yes the website is appalling!)

[Two Best Dogs!]

Thistle that was from February 2015. This is a different and new matter.

I thought Steve and Sheridan are talking about the bill amendment on puppy farms and the new restrictions in Victoria? I must have misunderstood, my mobile display is a bit funny on the ordering.

DV is a horrible website ???? One time I wanted to know about a nearby show and they didn't put the schedule up until the day of! Ended up not going. I never know what's going on with DV or even what they're meant to be doing half the time. Especially frustrating when want to read about their media releases. Why only on Facebook? Facebook articles get lost or break all the time so hard to find older info. *annoyed sigh* a rant for another time and place sorry ????

Edited October 14, 2016 by Thistle the dog

[The Spotted Devil]

Thistle that was from February 2015. This is a different and new matter.

I thought Steve and Sheridan are talking about the bill amendment on puppy farms and the new restrictions in Victoria? I must have misunderstood, my mobile display is a bit funny on the ordering.

DV is a horrible website ???? One time I wanted to know about a nearby show and they didn't put the schedule up until the day of! Ended up not going. I never know what's going on with DV or even what they're meant to be doing half the time. Especially frustrating when want to read about their media releases. Why only on Facebook? Facebook articles get lost or break all the time so hard to find older info. *annoyed sigh* a rant for another time and place sorry ????

Yes they are but the news article is referring to a PREVIOUS amendment :)

[Two Best Dogs!]

Thistle that was from February 2015. This is a different and new matter.

I thought Steve and Sheridan are talking about the bill amendment on puppy farms and the new restrictions in Victoria? I must have misunderstood, my mobile display is a bit funny on the ordering.

DV is a horrible website ???? One time I wanted to know about a nearby show and they didn't put the schedule up until the day of! Ended up not going. I never know what's going on with DV or even what they're meant to be doing half the time. Especially frustrating when want to read about their media releases. Why only on Facebook? Facebook articles get lost or break all the time so hard to find older info. *annoyed sigh* a rant for another time and place sorry ????

Yes they are but the news article is referring to a PREVIOUS amendment :)

But only the start of it is about the pet shop ban, the rest of it is about the other upcoming changes including the <10 breeding female restrictions that then leads into the DV statement. But also could be how the age is reordering things and the DV statement is about the pet shop plan but poorly located in the article?

*mobilr correct argh

Edited October 14, 2016 by Thistle the dog

[The Spotted Devil]

Thistle that was from February 2015. This is a different and new matter.

I thought Steve and Sheridan are talking about the bill amendment on puppy farms and the new restrictions in Victoria? I must have misunderstood, my mobile display is a bit funny on the ordering.

DV is a horrible website ???? One time I wanted to know about a nearby show and they didn't put the schedule up until the day of! Ended up not going. I never know what's going on with DV or even what they're meant to be doing half the time. Especially frustrating when want to read about their media releases. Why only on Facebook? Facebook articles get lost or break all the time so hard to find older info. *annoyed sigh* a rant for another time and place sorry ????

Yes they are but the news article is referring to a PREVIOUS amendment :)

But only the start of it is about the pet shop ban, the rest of it is about the other upcoming changes including the <10 breeding female restrictions that then leads into the DV statement. But also could be how the age is reordering things and the DV statement is about the pet shop plan but poorly located in the article?

*mobilr correct argh

Yes I do understand - but the new thing is that DV members have no exemptions. That if you own ONE fertile bitch and breed and sell puppies then you must apply for a Domestic Animal Business permit. Dogs Vic have been left out of the loop on these last changes so the statement that they approved those changes based on an article that is over 18 month old isn't accurate.

[corvus]

As to culture change, the generally held truth is that you can't legislate behaviour change to change cultures - culture change has to happen with each individual, one by one or small group by small group, which combined becomes cultural change - shared beliefs and values. You literally have to lead by example and bring people along with you. And there is not one shred of evidence that this industry even understands that, let alone has the knowledge and expertise to do it. The live baiting and cruelty will go underground with only superficial change for public show. Scratch the surface and it will still be there, because I have no doubt there is a hard core of people in this industry who believe they shouldn't and won't change and are simply pissed off because they got caught. And the best of the rest turn a blind eye - as they've always done. The investigations will continue and we'll be here again sooner rather than later. Because they genuinely don't believe they've done anything wrong and will thumb their noses at the rest of the community which has clearly said 'enough'! Can you hear the uproar when it happens again? And if not in NSW it will be another state - and around we'll all go again until someone has the guts to call time - do it properly and mean it. .

Oh, I think I could find a shred without looking very hard. It's true, some don't believe they have done anything wrong, but not everyone thinks that, and not everyone that thinks they haven't done anything wrong will continue doing something that has been outlawed. GRNSW are genuinely trying to catch people doing the wrong thing, now, which is not lost on industry participants. I guess the industry is now in the hands of the lowest common denominator. Lots of people realise that it's clean it up or lose it. I hope that's enough. At the end of the day, there are some daunting problems to overcome, but I think we should try, because it might just help the plight of other racing animals worldwide. I guess I'm more of the opinion that killing a lot of dogs with a ban with an inadequate wind up period in one state is not the net gain I want to see. I want to see racing cleaned up everywhere. I'm not sure if trying will cost more lives and create more misery than the short wind up and ban. No one can know. I can only work with what we've got, and I'm glad I'm not going to be in the middle of the industry while tens of thousands of dogs are made homeless in the space of 6 months. That was scaring me quite a bit.

[Two Best Dogs!]

Thistle that was from February 2015. This is a different and new matter.

I thought Steve and Sheridan are talking about the bill amendment on puppy farms and the new restrictions in Victoria? I must have misunderstood, my mobile display is a bit funny on the ordering.

DV is a horrible website ???? One time I wanted to know about a nearby show and they didn't put the schedule up until the day of! Ended up not going. I never know what's going on with DV or even what they're meant to be doing half the time. Especially frustrating when want to read about their media releases. Why only on Facebook? Facebook articles get lost or break all the time so hard to find older info. *annoyed sigh* a rant for another time and place sorry ????

Yes they are but the news article is referring to a PREVIOUS amendment :)

But only the start of it is about the pet shop ban, the rest of it is about the other upcoming changes including the <10 breeding female restrictions that then leads into the DV statement. But also could be how the age is reordering things and the DV statement is about the pet shop plan but poorly located in the article?

*mobilr correct argh

Yes I do understand - but the new thing is that DV members have no exemptions. That if you own ONE fertile bitch and breed and sell puppies then you must apply for a Domestic Animal Business permit. Dogs Vic have been left out of the loop on these last changes so the statement that they approved those changes based on an article that is over 18 month old isn't accurate.

I follow now ????

[asal]

Corvus I understand. But I stand by what I said. There is one key and one key only to changing this industry so it survives - and that's changing its culture - and not just the 'bad apples'. Everything else is secondary. If that doesn't happen the industry has two to three years tops. And to change culture takes know-how and experience first and foremost - and then huge resources and effort - and I would almost guarantee there is no-one in that industry capable of leading the most important change of the lot.

So the industry will fail. Animals Australia et al will not stop. New investigations will uncover the continuation of live-bating and/or other sickening cruelty - and in the meantime many more greys will suffer and die. And we'll all be here again this time next year and this thread will be picking over the same old bones - and if he's still around, (which is doubtful) Mike Baird is going to rue the day he caved in and he will not be able to cave a second time around. Bookmark it..

Yup that is right, they won't stop. They most certainly won't stop with the close of the greyhound industry either. If you are right and the industry goes in 3-4 years, next it will be horse racing then maybe pets as they have already been clear that they want to stop all animal exploitation.

--Lhok

noticed the news reporting at the time was saying "there must be an end to animal exploitation". Wondered if those spouting it, knew what they were saying was pure PETA doctrine?

Doubt they had a clue what they were repeating really means.

Have to give PETA 10 out of 10 for success in getting people to repeat the mantra, even if they haven't a clue as to the meaning or what it entails

Edited October 14, 2016 by asal

[westiemum]

As to culture change, the generally held truth is that you can't legislate behaviour change to change cultures - culture change has to happen with each individual, one by one or small group by small group, which combined becomes cultural change - shared beliefs and values. You literally have to lead by example and bring people along with you. And there is not one shred of evidence that this industry even understands that, let alone has the knowledge and expertise to do it. The live baiting and cruelty will go underground with only superficial change for public show. Scratch the surface and it will still be there, because I have no doubt there is a hard core of people in this industry who believe they shouldn't and won't change and are simply pissed off because they got caught. And the best of the rest turn a blind eye - as they've always done. The investigations will continue and we'll be here again sooner rather than later. Because they genuinely don't believe they've done anything wrong and will thumb their noses at the rest of the community which has clearly said 'enough'! Can you hear the uproar when it happens again? And if not in NSW it will be another state - and around we'll all go again until someone has the guts to call time - do it properly and mean it. .

Oh, I think I could find a shred without looking very hard. It's true, some don't believe they have done anything wrong, but not everyone thinks that, and not everyone that thinks they haven't done anything wrong will continue doing something that has been outlawed. GRNSW are genuinely trying to catch people doing the wrong thing, now, which is not lost on industry participants. I guess the industry is now in the hands of the lowest common denominator. Lots of people realise that it's clean it up or lose it. I hope that's enough. At the end of the day, there are some daunting problems to overcome, but I think we should try, because it might just help the plight of other racing animals worldwide. I guess I'm more of the opinion that killing a lot of dogs with a ban with an inadequate wind up period in one state is not the net gain I want to see. I want to see racing cleaned up everywhere. I'm not sure if trying will cost more lives and create more misery than the short wind up and ban. No one can know. I can only work with what we've got, and I'm glad I'm not going to be in the middle of the industry while tens of thousands of dogs are made homeless in the space of 6 months. That was scaring me quite a bit.

Excellent post C - thank you. But its that lowest common denominator that worries me. I hear what you say but do you really think there is the capability inherent in the industry to change and make it stick? Having done major change programmes in big organisations - both the 'slow excruciating tooth pulling' version and the 'short sharp, get in and get out, blood on the floor' version' i prefer the latter - while its bloody in the short term I think its less painful in the long term - and allows people to grieve and then move on. I fear that this is only going to prolong the inevitable. A slow death from unviability or a fast one from a shut-down? Dunno.

And as to dog deaths - sadly I think its clear they are going to happen regardless - and these people who 'love their dogs like family' will kill them if the industry shuts down, yet animals will conitinue to suffer if it continues - so like you I don't know what is the best approach.

[juice]

WM, you hit the nail on the head, they don't think they have done anything wrong and think " townies" have no idea.

I really am yet to see how they can stop live baiting.

Also all those dogs that would have died with the ban would be dead within the next few years anyway,either culled because thery werent fast enough or their very short career is over.

What it did stop was more being bred for the same fate.

I'm also sick of hearing its only a few bad apples, that is complete bollocks!

[m-j]

Having done major change programmes in big organisations - both the 'slow excruciating tooth pulling' version and the 'short sharp, get in and get out, blood on the floor' version' i prefer the latter - while its bloody in the short term I think its less painful in the long term -

So are you saying that the short sharp version closed the organisations down completely or they went OS, or was it that the participants just had to change their culture, no compromises, so the industry could survive?

Edited October 15, 2016 by m-j