corvus Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 Id like to see those who don't support the ban going to watch live baiting in action then sticking their hands up to take one of the 70% of dogs who don't make it . Because I'm damn sure the trainers who love them so much havnt got any sitting on their lounge . I met one that didn't make it just yesterday. She is not sitting on her owner's lounge, but she has a yard and a kennel, she gets a lot of cuddles, and she has raised puppies who are now winning. I suppose she made it via her offspring. There is quite a lot of variation in what you might consider a "trainer". Some seem to actively ruin dogs and others sink enormous amounts of time into them daily from an early age. Those are the extremes. Both exist, and there is definitely a continuum between them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juice Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 Until she no longer produces . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 Until she no longer produces . If that's what you need to believe. Because I can't imagine where else that exact practice might be occurring regularly and is not considered a welfare issue. FWIW, I think she's there to stay, but what would I know after talking to the owners for hours and hours over several days about greyhound training and rearing and welfare and having them show me how they train their dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ripley Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 Baby boomer bogans, Australia's most prolific voting demographic, get their way yet again. What a surprise! Such a weak politician. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirislin Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 Hmm so even owning a Greyhound in NSW may be under threat. https://www.thedogs.com.au/NewsArticle.aspx?NewsId=7874 "on when it becomes illegal to own dogs" ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juice Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 Nailed it Ripley. Corvus, so just because the practice might be done elswhere it makes it ok? I'm sure they were not about to show you live baiting on one of your visits :laugh: I'm yet to see how zero tolerance of cruelty is going to be impleted, based on the fact the live baiting is done on rural properties. anyone who was too scared to dob before isn't going to now. And how exactly do they cater for the 70% who don't make it? the drug abuse, the deaths and injuries at tracks which are lied about? if the governing body is lying about this stuff now how do they police it in the future? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ripley Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 (edited) Nailed it Ripley. Corvus, so just because the practice might be done elswhere it makes it ok? I'm sure they were not about to show you live baiting on one of your visits :laugh: I'm yet to see how zero tolerance of cruelty is going to be impleted, based on the fact the live baiting is done on rural properties. anyone who was too scared to dob before isn't going to now. And how exactly do they cater for the 70% who don't make it? the drug abuse, the deaths and injuries at tracks which are lied about? if the governing body is lying about this stuff now how do they police it in the future? The entire country is pretty much governed by what the National party voters want as they are in 'key seats'. More land clearing is next on Baird's agenda so let's clear more land and trees and expect taxpayers to fork out when there are future droughts. I can't remember a time when we had strong politicians in this country. Edited October 11, 2016 by Ripley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katdogs Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 'Government' by Alan Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two Best Dogs! Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp.foxsports.com.au/what-the-fox/greyhound-racing-ban-backflip-from-nsw-government-mike-baird/news-story/ac42d257798a8009e6854cd875224cd5?client=safari The new policy will now look at reducing the number of tracks and races, capping breeding, enforcing plans for dog welfare beyond their racing career and also $1500 bond payments for every dog bred. Life bans for animal cruelty have also been touted. My interest and concern is the welfare of the dogs, live baiting and especially the wastage of the "excess" dogs. Can't say I have much faith on the industry improving or these "new strict regulations" actually being enforced. But wait and see. https://www.google.com.au/amp/www.9news.com.au/amp/national/2016/10/10/21/13/accused-live-baiter-to-face-nsw-court?client=safari A greyhound trainer accused of torturing and killing animals as part of a live-baiting regime will front court on the day the NSW premier is expected to backflip on his controversial ban on greyhound racing. The 27-year-old was on Monday morning charged with two counts of torturing and beating an animal to death, aggravated animal cruelty and using an animal for training, after images of an alleged animal-cruelty incident were found during an unrelated investigation. Waiting on this too. Careful with the link, it has photos and an auto play video Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdierikx Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 Funny (and I used that term loosely) how most people I've spoken to about the issue are actually more outraged at the use of live animals for "training" purposes than the "wastage" of non-performing greyhounds in the industry... Love to know how he thinks he's going to be able to police the industry any better than in the past... because we all know that certain policing bodies are about as useful as tits on a bull when it comes to enforcement of current regulations they have been tasked to oversee to date... throwing a bit of money at them for a few more inspectors ain't gonna fix the fact that they don't actually follow through on any case they can't make media announcements about to garner more donations... T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Her Majesty Dogmad Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 The end will come, it is just taking a longer route. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 Corvus, so just because the practice might be done elswhere it makes it ok? I'm sure they were not about to show you live baiting on one of your visits :laugh: I never said that, Juice, but seeing as you're asking, I sometimes sell a breeding pair of doves to make room for keeping on one of their offspring to improve genetic diversity or keep colours I like. Do you think that means I don't love or care well enough for my doves? Is that an ethically questionable practice? If so, why? GRNSW are careful who they put me in contact with! I have no clue how they are going to make the changes they say they are, but I hope they are successful. I do believe there is more of a willingness to change than some seem to think. They got super close to losing something many of them love dearly. I think if anything can change attitudes and practices smart, that will. Let's hope it does and they don't squander the chance they've been given. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westiemum Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 The end will come, it is just taking a longer route. Absolutely correct - and even the trainers know it. Patience is a virtue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westiemum Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 (edited) Corvus, so just because the practice might be done elswhere it makes it ok? I'm sure they were not about to show you live baiting on one of your visits :laugh: I never said that, Juice, but seeing as you're asking, I sometimes sell a breeding pair of doves to make room for keeping on one of their offspring to improve genetic diversity or keep colours I like. Do you think that means I don't love or care well enough for my doves? Is that an ethically questionable practice? If so, why? GRNSW are careful who they put me in contact with! I have no clue how they are going to make the changes they say they are, but I hope they are successful. I do believe there is more of a willingness to change than some seem to think. They got super close to losing something many of them love dearly. I think if anything can change attitudes and practices smart, that will. Let's hope it does and they don't squander the chance they've been given. Corvus this is one occasion I disagree with you. This culture is so embedded it would take decades to change and huge resources. Therefore it WILL happen again. And the general public's patience is at an end even if that of the pollies and the industry isn't. Give it a year or two and we'll all be back here having the same conversation. Only today a NSW greyhound trainer was in court on animal cruelty charges. I'm sorry for the good people in the industry. But they too stood by and did nothing until the community called 'time' when they were found out. That makes them just as culpable. Its only matter of time now. Edited October 11, 2016 by westiemum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juice Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 Mike Baird said in his initial speech that to implement enough reforms the industry would not be viable, wonder how that has suddenly changed, or is it that the implements needed won't happen. He also said yesterday that the majority of feedback he had from the general public was for the ban, it was his collegues who were against it, another politician who clearly doesnt speak for the people, just his own kind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 (edited) Mike Baird's announcement sounded like 'Forgive us for we don't know what we are doing'...hm, of course, everyone makes mistakes, but for most mortals making mistakes has some consequences, so why is he still in charge? Edited October 12, 2016 by Willem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m-j Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 Mike Baird said in his initial speech that to implement enough reforms the industry would not be viable, wonder how that has suddenly changed, or is it that the implements needed won't happen. He also said yesterday that the majority of feedback he had from the general public was for the ban, it was his collegues who were against it, another politician who clearly doesnt speak for the people, just his own kind. How is a 47% reduction of pups being bred in the 12 months prior to the ban being announced not an example of a reform being implemented and enforced??? Having to pay a $1500.00 per pup bond will most certainly reduce the numbers even more (a litter of 6 pups will cost an extra $9000.00 to produce on top of all the other 1000s of dollars of expenses), if they don't pay there is no point breeding the litter as they won't be able to race. This reform will be very easy to enforce. Money being spent on research for better conditions for the dogs not an example of reforms not being implemented?? If the reforms make the industry an non viable proposition then it will die a slow death and the dogs will not die en masse how can that not be good for the dogs?? You mentioned in a previous post about members not putting their hands up for the dogs that don't make it, I am one who has and I know of others so your statement saying that we don't is very misinformed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheridan Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 Id like to see those who don't support the ban going to watch live baiting in action then sticking their hands up to take one of the 70% of dogs who don't make it . Because I'm damn sure the trainers who love them so much havnt got any sitting on their lounge . You seem to think anyone who doesn't want to see a ban, without even knowing the reason, supports live baiting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 Mike Baird said in his initial speech that to implement enough reforms the industry would not be viable, wonder how that has suddenly changed, or is it that the implements needed won't happen. He also said yesterday that the majority of feedback he had from the general public was for the ban, it was his collegues who were against it, another politician who clearly doesnt speak for the people, just his own kind. Ostensibly, his colleagues do speak for the people - i.e. their constituents. In country areas, this is a much bigger deal than it is in the city. The Special Commission report suggests that the economic situation is unclear. A fair bit of it is censored, but the general conclusion is that GRNSW can afford increased staff and upgrading tracks to make the recommended welfare improvements, but that participants may not be able to afford to make the required updates to their kennelling facilities and the likes. I'm not sure if industry participants understand this, or necessarily care. Many of them are hobbyists and are operating at a loss now. Maybe they will find the need to sink a lot of money into their facilities to be challenging, but then again, maybe they won't. I haven't heard anything about expectations of participants beyond penalties for live baiting, so maybe that is what the government has decided to ignore. westiemum, I did not say I believe the industry WILL improve. I said I hope they do. Otherwise we're back to square one and nothing gained. I am sure there are people in the industry that will try to do what they have always done because they think they have to, or they think it's stupid not to, or whatever reason they have. Others seem very willing to change to save the industry, but need guidance, and that is kind of what my research is supposed to produce. I'm not sure who is in a position to decide how entrenched the issues are and how hard change will be. I'm not! You might think former CEOs would know, but I dunno. Newson says he pretty much gave up on them all. Everyone I speak to is desperate to see the industry change. My best guess is it is like any collection of people. There is a very vocal group that have been a pain in the butt and fought every step, and they probably don't represent the industry as a whole. To what extent they do represent the industry I don't know, but I sympathise with the people that just want everyone to wake up and toe the line before it's all gone. I know what that frustration is like. It doesn't affect me much either way, but I don't want to see a lot of dogs die, and I was increasingly thinking that's what the ban was going to produce. It was disturbing me more and more! It wasn't just the dogs that would not have made it to their second birthday anyway. It was beginning to seem scarily more complicated than that to me at least. I believe there are better ways to do it if it has to be done, and postponing (perhaps indefinitely if welfare can become acceptable) it while implementing some big animal welfare reforms may be one of them. Depending on what the reforms are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westiemum Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 (edited) Corvus I understand. But I stand by what I said. There is one key and one key only to changing this industry so it survives - and that's changing its culture - and not just the 'bad apples'. Everything else is secondary. If that doesn't happen the industry has two to three years tops. And to change culture takes know-how and experience first and foremost - and then huge resources and effort - and I would almost guarantee there is no-one in that industry capable of leading the most important change of the lot. So the industry will fail. Animals Australia et al will not stop. New investigations will uncover the continuation of live-bating and/or other sickening cruelty - and in the meantime many more greys will suffer and die. And we'll all be here again this time next year and this thread will be picking over the same old bones - and if he's still around, (which is doubtful) Mike Baird is going to rue the day he caved in and he will not be able to cave a second time around. Bookmark it.. Edited October 12, 2016 by westiemum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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