Nsw To Ban Greyhound Racing From July 2017

[Maddy]

I understand that all greyhounds born after 1st July 2017 will automatically be allowed to be muzzle free. Disaster waiting to happen. Once a few unsuitable greyhounds rip apart a few small fluffies they will go the way of the pitbull here in Vic and be banned totally. BSL at it's finest.

You know that the muzzling requirements are already BSL? Why should Greyhounds be subject to Breed Specific Legislation, particularly once they will no longer be being bred for the purposes of racing and live baited?

Because greyhounds have a higher prey drive than many other breeds, regardless of baiting or training, and there is a percentage that will see small dogs as prey. It's not discrimination, it's a breed trait. I have owned greys with very high drive (and still do) and while they are lovely dogs with people and larger dogs, they absolutely would kill something small and fluffy if they got the chance. Part of being a responsible owner is recognising and managing breed traits- pretending they don't exist does the breed no favours.

Prey drive is a *dog* trait, and not exclusive to any one breed. There are many breeds that have a higher potential for prey drive, and many dogs within many breeds that have a high prey drive. There are plenty of dogs of all breeds that will kill other dogs for non-prey drive reasons too. Breed Specific Legislation has been shown time and time again to be a complete failure in preventing dog attacks. Adequate and well resourced animal management and education programs are what is effective.

Roughly 25% of greys are not small dog safe. Let one of those dogs off lead at a park with a small dog and you'll have a dead small dog in less time than it takes you to realise what is happening. If your greyhound is muzzled and on leash, it can't chase down, grab and shake to death someone else's pet. Muzzling/leashing greyhounds is in no way similar to BSL for things like bull breeds. Muzzling/leashing is for their safety and the safety of other dogs/cats/small animals.

In a perfect world, everyone would be sensible and responsible but back here in reality, greyhounds could be at risk of actual BSL if ignorant idiots are allowed to let their greys run unmuzzled and offlead.

I know you don't understand the issue with greyhounds all that well (given you've had this same argument with Hazywal before) but if you're keen to find out for yourself, you're welcome to have one of my high drive fosters for a few weeks >.> (That is a serious offer, by the way. Nothing educates quite like the sight of your dog chasing down and destroying someone else's dog, while the attacked dog's owner screams for it to stop)

Roughly 25% of Greyhounds (trusting your stats here) are not small dog safe after coming from an industry that heavily selected them for intense prey drive, did not socialise them to small dogs in their critical socialisation period (and potentially for years after), reinforced that drive over and over again and live baited many of them. I've got lots of experience with prey driven dogs, and once they've had a live kill (catching rabbits, possums, other animals while out or in their yards) the intensity of the drive goes through the roof and becomes much more difficult to manage. I would be *very* interested to see if that 25% stays once we're dealing with dogs that have not been bred, raised and trained in the racing industry. I suspect it won't.

As far as I can tell, Australia is one of the only countries with BSL for Greyhounds, yet other countries are not suffering from rampaging Greyhounds killing every small dog in sight while being allowed to run around off leash. On top of that, plenty of non-greencollar approved greyhounds are currently owned by people who do not comply with the legislation, and yet again we are not seeing rampaging greys on the loose killing other dogs in any sort of regularity.

I am not doubting that some Greyhounds are a true safety issue around small dogs, from genetics alone. Those dogs need to be rehomed carefully to owners who take their potential seriously, just like dogs of other breeds that also pose a safety risk. Part of that is likely to be the owner muzzling/leashing them in public. If the risk is too great for that individual dog, they should not be rehomed.

"In a perfect world, everyone would be sensible and responsible" - I agree that we don't live in a perfect world but the people that aren't sensible and responsible won't muzzle and leash their greys regardless of the rules. The vast majority *are* sensible and responsible and prevent their dogs ever being an issue. Meanwhile we have 75%+ of Greys that pose no risk subject to legislation that stigmatises them and hinders their adoptability. We've also got animal management officers wasting time attempting to enforce it rather than focusing on other strategies proven to be successful.

ETA: I would genuinely love to take you up on your offer, however I can't foster adult dogs - my dog is an arsehole to them on her own property (super social off the property). Not fair on the other dog. It's a shame as given the industry shutdown I'd really love to foster some Greys over the next 12 months and beyond.

Drive is not necessarily hereditary- I rehomed the litter sister of a Launceston Cup winner, he was a hard, driven dog, she went to a home with a cat and a chihuahua. I've had two litter sisters, one went on to be rehomed to the owner of our test small dog and the other.. prey drive too high to rehome. Breeders use popular sires thinking that the drive will be present in the pups but more often than not, litters are completely random.

As for things like socialisation.. the impacts are questionable. I had a dog surrendered to me who had been rehomed as a baby puppy, lived his whole life with a particular cat and then at 3 or 4 years of age.. chased down and killed that cat. I've taken in several pups (oopsie litters) who were never trained and again, prey drive levels were random- there was one who was cat safe, one was questionable on cats but fine with small dogs, another was definitely not small dog safe. There is a reason why every greyhound needs to be tested and that is that the dog's background is not particularly useful in estimating level of prey drive. Race training doesn't necessarily make any difference and live baiting only amplifies the dogs who were already on the higher end of the scale.

With racing gone, drive will be a lot less of a consideration in breeding and for some people (the ones who will let their dog offlead without thinking about it), I suppose that's a good thing. Personally though.. I don't think it's necessarily a good thing for the breed's future. The greys we have today are a product of their purpose- they might not be suited to the sort of person who can't be bothered with a leash but then, the breed shouldn't have to change to suit the lowest common denominator. Water down an important breed trait and you risk losing the characteristics that make the breed what it is.

[melzawelza]

I understand that all greyhounds born after 1st July 2017 will automatically be allowed to be muzzle free. Disaster waiting to happen. Once a few unsuitable greyhounds rip apart a few small fluffies they will go the way of the pitbull here in Vic and be banned totally. BSL at it's finest.

You know that the muzzling requirements are already BSL? Why should Greyhounds be subject to Breed Specific Legislation, particularly once they will no longer be being bred for the purposes of racing and live baited?

Because greyhounds have a higher prey drive than many other breeds, regardless of baiting or training, and there is a percentage that will see small dogs as prey. It's not discrimination, it's a breed trait. I have owned greys with very high drive (and still do) and while they are lovely dogs with people and larger dogs, they absolutely would kill something small and fluffy if they got the chance. Part of being a responsible owner is recognising and managing breed traits- pretending they don't exist does the breed no favours.

Prey drive is a *dog* trait, and not exclusive to any one breed. There are many breeds that have a higher potential for prey drive, and many dogs within many breeds that have a high prey drive. There are plenty of dogs of all breeds that will kill other dogs for non-prey drive reasons too. Breed Specific Legislation has been shown time and time again to be a complete failure in preventing dog attacks. Adequate and well resourced animal management and education programs are what is effective.

Roughly 25% of greys are not small dog safe. Let one of those dogs off lead at a park with a small dog and you'll have a dead small dog in less time than it takes you to realise what is happening. If your greyhound is muzzled and on leash, it can't chase down, grab and shake to death someone else's pet. Muzzling/leashing greyhounds is in no way similar to BSL for things like bull breeds. Muzzling/leashing is for their safety and the safety of other dogs/cats/small animals.

In a perfect world, everyone would be sensible and responsible but back here in reality, greyhounds could be at risk of actual BSL if ignorant idiots are allowed to let their greys run unmuzzled and offlead.

I know you don't understand the issue with greyhounds all that well (given you've had this same argument with Hazywal before) but if you're keen to find out for yourself, you're welcome to have one of my high drive fosters for a few weeks >.> (That is a serious offer, by the way. Nothing educates quite like the sight of your dog chasing down and destroying someone else's dog, while the attacked dog's owner screams for it to stop)

Roughly 25% of Greyhounds (trusting your stats here) are not small dog safe after coming from an industry that heavily selected them for intense prey drive, did not socialise them to small dogs in their critical socialisation period (and potentially for years after), reinforced that drive over and over again and live baited many of them. I've got lots of experience with prey driven dogs, and once they've had a live kill (catching rabbits, possums, other animals while out or in their yards) the intensity of the drive goes through the roof and becomes much more difficult to manage. I would be *very* interested to see if that 25% stays once we're dealing with dogs that have not been bred, raised and trained in the racing industry. I suspect it won't.

As far as I can tell, Australia is one of the only countries with BSL for Greyhounds, yet other countries are not suffering from rampaging Greyhounds killing every small dog in sight while being allowed to run around off leash. On top of that, plenty of non-greencollar approved greyhounds are currently owned by people who do not comply with the legislation, and yet again we are not seeing rampaging greys on the loose killing other dogs in any sort of regularity.

I am not doubting that some Greyhounds are a true safety issue around small dogs, from genetics alone. Those dogs need to be rehomed carefully to owners who take their potential seriously, just like dogs of other breeds that also pose a safety risk. Part of that is likely to be the owner muzzling/leashing them in public. If the risk is too great for that individual dog, they should not be rehomed.

"In a perfect world, everyone would be sensible and responsible" - I agree that we don't live in a perfect world but the people that aren't sensible and responsible won't muzzle and leash their greys regardless of the rules. The vast majority *are* sensible and responsible and prevent their dogs ever being an issue. Meanwhile we have 75%+ of Greys that pose no risk subject to legislation that stigmatises them and hinders their adoptability. We've also got animal management officers wasting time attempting to enforce it rather than focusing on other strategies proven to be successful.

ETA: I would genuinely love to take you up on your offer, however I can't foster adult dogs - my dog is an arsehole to them on her own property (super social off the property). Not fair on the other dog. It's a shame as given the industry shutdown I'd really love to foster some Greys over the next 12 months and beyond.

Drive is not necessarily hereditary- I rehomed the litter sister of a Launceston Cup winner, he was a hard, driven dog, she went to a home with a cat and a chihuahua. I've had two litter sisters, one went on to be rehomed to the owner of our test small dog and the other.. prey drive too high to rehome. Breeders use popular sires thinking that the drive will be present in the pups but more often than not, litters are completely random.

As for things like socialisation.. the impacts are questionable. I had a dog surrendered to me who had been rehomed as a baby puppy, lived his whole life with a particular cat and then at 3 or 4 years of age.. chased down and killed that cat. I've taken in several pups (oopsie litters) who were never trained and again, prey drive levels were random- there was one who was cat safe, one was questionable on cats but fine with small dogs, another was definitely not small dog safe. There is a reason why every greyhound needs to be tested and that is that the dog's background is not particularly useful in estimating level of prey drive. Race training doesn't necessarily make any difference and live baiting only amplifies the dogs who were already on the higher end of the scale.

With racing gone, drive will be a lot less of a consideration in breeding and for some people (the ones who will let their dog offlead without thinking about it), I suppose that's a good thing. Personally though.. I don't think it's necessarily a good thing for the breed's future. The greys we have today are a product of their purpose- they might not be suited to the sort of person who can't be bothered with a leash but then, the breed shouldn't have to change to suit the lowest common denominator. Water down an important breed trait and you risk losing the characteristics that make the breed what it is.

Agree completely that prey drive (or many traits) are not necessarily hereditary as in just because the parent shows it, the pups will too. That's not what I was intending in my original comment - I was more commenting on the overall predisposition within the closed gene pool that is a breed. Dogs still actively being selected for working traits (as opposed to appearance or as pets) are going to be much more likely to be born predisposed to those breed traits - that is more where my comment lay.

My comments re socialisation are more about whether the dog sees small dogs as a dog or a prey animal. Socialisation during critical periods to different types of dogs can help with that (which racing Greys don't typically get). I own a very high prey drive dog. She is generally okay with small dogs (although I am always careful), as she views them as dogs and therefore they don't trigger her drive. There was one occasion though where a very tiny dog in the distance that moved a lot like a rabbit triggered her prey drive big time - she didn't realise it was a dog. Thankfully she was leashed at the time and once she figured out it was a dog she was okay, but certainly if she did not view smalls as dogs on the whole she would be a big risk to them. The way many trainers raise and manage their dogs doesn't help with their rehoming later in life.

Honestly I do hear what you're saying and I do share the concerns about the loss of the characteristics of a breed. I hate to say it but it's very similar to what was heard from many hardcore APBT people... that by banning dog fighting you would lose the APBT in that form (which is a pretty incredible dog.... the dogs still being rescued from busts in the US are something special). It's a difficult line to walk when you balance the inherent cruelty in an industry for the dogs themselves and the traits that industry produces in the dogs you love. I've really liked your posts in this thread over the last few days and I share much of your views. For me, the cruelty and wastage is too much to justify.

Excellent APBT people worked their dogs in other ways in an attempt to preserve the breed as best you can without actually using them in dogfighting, and I think a lot are doing a great job and also producing great dogs. I hope that that can happen with Greys too. It would definitely be hard to see them just become another show breed.

Unfortunately there's no easy answer, but for me the industry has to go for all the reasons you stated earlier. Personally I am firmly on the side of avoiding BSL and sticking to much more effective animal management legislation and programs but I understand where you're coming from. I do think it's likely that the amount of Greys in the community in 10 years that are a big threat to small dogs will be lesser, and I do think that Grey owners overall have been doing a good job of keeping their dogs and others safe, and I think that will continue long after BSL for Greys is lifted.

Edited August 11, 2016 by melzawelza

[Sheridan]

I understand that all greyhounds born after 1st July 2017 will automatically be allowed to be muzzle free. Disaster waiting to happen. Once a few unsuitable greyhounds rip apart a few small fluffies they will go the way of the pitbull here in Vic and be banned totally. BSL at it's finest.

You know that the muzzling requirements are already BSL? Why should Greyhounds be subject to Breed Specific Legislation, particularly once they will no longer be being bred for the purposes of racing and live baited?

Because greyhounds have a higher prey drive than many other breeds, regardless of baiting or training, and there is a percentage that will see small dogs as prey. It's not discrimination, it's a breed trait. I have owned greys with very high drive (and still do) and while they are lovely dogs with people and larger dogs, they absolutely would kill something small and fluffy if they got the chance. Part of being a responsible owner is recognising and managing breed traits- pretending they don't exist does the breed no favours.

Prey drive is a *dog* trait, and not exclusive to any one breed. There are many breeds that have a higher potential for prey drive, and many dogs within many breeds that have a high prey drive. There are plenty of dogs of all breeds that will kill other dogs for non-prey drive reasons too. Breed Specific Legislation has been shown time and time again to be a complete failure in preventing dog attacks. Adequate and well resourced animal management and education programs are what is effective.

Roughly 25% of greys are not small dog safe. Let one of those dogs off lead at a park with a small dog and you'll have a dead small dog in less time than it takes you to realise what is happening. If your greyhound is muzzled and on leash, it can't chase down, grab and shake to death someone else's pet. Muzzling/leashing greyhounds is in no way similar to BSL for things like bull breeds. Muzzling/leashing is for their safety and the safety of other dogs/cats/small animals.

In a perfect world, everyone would be sensible and responsible but back here in reality, greyhounds could be at risk of actual BSL if ignorant idiots are allowed to let their greys run unmuzzled and offlead.

I know you don't understand the issue with greyhounds all that well (given you've had this same argument with Hazywal before) but if you're keen to find out for yourself, you're welcome to have one of my high drive fosters for a few weeks >.> (That is a serious offer, by the way. Nothing educates quite like the sight of your dog chasing down and destroying someone else's dog, while the attacked dog's owner screams for it to stop)

Roughly 25 per cent of statistics are made up. Prove I'm wrong.

[Maddy]

I understand that all greyhounds born after 1st July 2017 will automatically be allowed to be muzzle free. Disaster waiting to happen. Once a few unsuitable greyhounds rip apart a few small fluffies they will go the way of the pitbull here in Vic and be banned totally. BSL at it's finest.

You know that the muzzling requirements are already BSL? Why should Greyhounds be subject to Breed Specific Legislation, particularly once they will no longer be being bred for the purposes of racing and live baited?

Because greyhounds have a higher prey drive than many other breeds, regardless of baiting or training, and there is a percentage that will see small dogs as prey. It's not discrimination, it's a breed trait. I have owned greys with very high drive (and still do) and while they are lovely dogs with people and larger dogs, they absolutely would kill something small and fluffy if they got the chance. Part of being a responsible owner is recognising and managing breed traits- pretending they don't exist does the breed no favours.

Prey drive is a *dog* trait, and not exclusive to any one breed. There are many breeds that have a higher potential for prey drive, and many dogs within many breeds that have a high prey drive. There are plenty of dogs of all breeds that will kill other dogs for non-prey drive reasons too. Breed Specific Legislation has been shown time and time again to be a complete failure in preventing dog attacks. Adequate and well resourced animal management and education programs are what is effective.

Roughly 25% of greys are not small dog safe. Let one of those dogs off lead at a park with a small dog and you'll have a dead small dog in less time than it takes you to realise what is happening. If your greyhound is muzzled and on leash, it can't chase down, grab and shake to death someone else's pet. Muzzling/leashing greyhounds is in no way similar to BSL for things like bull breeds. Muzzling/leashing is for their safety and the safety of other dogs/cats/small animals.

In a perfect world, everyone would be sensible and responsible but back here in reality, greyhounds could be at risk of actual BSL if ignorant idiots are allowed to let their greys run unmuzzled and offlead.

I know you don't understand the issue with greyhounds all that well (given you've had this same argument with Hazywal before) but if you're keen to find out for yourself, you're welcome to have one of my high drive fosters for a few weeks >.> (That is a serious offer, by the way. Nothing educates quite like the sight of your dog chasing down and destroying someone else's dog, while the attacked dog's owner screams for it to stop)

Roughly 25% of Greyhounds (trusting your stats here) are not small dog safe after coming from an industry that heavily selected them for intense prey drive, did not socialise them to small dogs in their critical socialisation period (and potentially for years after), reinforced that drive over and over again and live baited many of them. I've got lots of experience with prey driven dogs, and once they've had a live kill (catching rabbits, possums, other animals while out or in their yards) the intensity of the drive goes through the roof and becomes much more difficult to manage. I would be *very* interested to see if that 25% stays once we're dealing with dogs that have not been bred, raised and trained in the racing industry. I suspect it won't.

As far as I can tell, Australia is one of the only countries with BSL for Greyhounds, yet other countries are not suffering from rampaging Greyhounds killing every small dog in sight while being allowed to run around off leash. On top of that, plenty of non-greencollar approved greyhounds are currently owned by people who do not comply with the legislation, and yet again we are not seeing rampaging greys on the loose killing other dogs in any sort of regularity.

I am not doubting that some Greyhounds are a true safety issue around small dogs, from genetics alone. Those dogs need to be rehomed carefully to owners who take their potential seriously, just like dogs of other breeds that also pose a safety risk. Part of that is likely to be the owner muzzling/leashing them in public. If the risk is too great for that individual dog, they should not be rehomed.

"In a perfect world, everyone would be sensible and responsible" - I agree that we don't live in a perfect world but the people that aren't sensible and responsible won't muzzle and leash their greys regardless of the rules. The vast majority *are* sensible and responsible and prevent their dogs ever being an issue. Meanwhile we have 75%+ of Greys that pose no risk subject to legislation that stigmatises them and hinders their adoptability. We've also got animal management officers wasting time attempting to enforce it rather than focusing on other strategies proven to be successful.

ETA: I would genuinely love to take you up on your offer, however I can't foster adult dogs - my dog is an arsehole to them on her own property (super social off the property). Not fair on the other dog. It's a shame as given the industry shutdown I'd really love to foster some Greys over the next 12 months and beyond.

Drive is not necessarily hereditary- I rehomed the litter sister of a Launceston Cup winner, he was a hard, driven dog, she went to a home with a cat and a chihuahua. I've had two litter sisters, one went on to be rehomed to the owner of our test small dog and the other.. prey drive too high to rehome. Breeders use popular sires thinking that the drive will be present in the pups but more often than not, litters are completely random.

As for things like socialisation.. the impacts are questionable. I had a dog surrendered to me who had been rehomed as a baby puppy, lived his whole life with a particular cat and then at 3 or 4 years of age.. chased down and killed that cat. I've taken in several pups (oopsie litters) who were never trained and again, prey drive levels were random- there was one who was cat safe, one was questionable on cats but fine with small dogs, another was definitely not small dog safe. There is a reason why every greyhound needs to be tested and that is that the dog's background is not particularly useful in estimating level of prey drive. Race training doesn't necessarily make any difference and live baiting only amplifies the dogs who were already on the higher end of the scale.

With racing gone, drive will be a lot less of a consideration in breeding and for some people (the ones who will let their dog offlead without thinking about it), I suppose that's a good thing. Personally though.. I don't think it's necessarily a good thing for the breed's future. The greys we have today are a product of their purpose- they might not be suited to the sort of person who can't be bothered with a leash but then, the breed shouldn't have to change to suit the lowest common denominator. Water down an important breed trait and you risk losing the characteristics that make the breed what it is.

Agree completely that prey drive (or many traits) are not necessarily hereditary as in just because the parent shows it, the pups will too. That's not what I was intending in my original comment - I was more commenting on the overall predisposition within the closed gene pool that is a breed. Dogs still actively being selected for working traits are going to be much more likely to be born predisposed to those breed traits - that is more where my comment lay.

Honestly I do hear what you're saying and I do share the concerns about the loss of the characteristics of a breed. I hate to say it but it's very similar to what was heard from many hardcore APBT people... that by banning dog fighting you would lose the APBT in that form (which is a pretty incredible dog.... the dogs still being rescued from busts in the US are something special). It's a difficult line to walk when you balance the inherent cruelty in an industry for the dogs themselves and the traits that industry produces in the dogs you love. I've really liked your posts in this thread over the last few days and I share much of your views. For me, the cruelty and wastage is too much to justify.

Excellent APBT people worked their dogs in other ways in an attempt to preserve the breed as best you can without actually using them in dogfighting, and I think a lot are doing a great job and also producing great dogs. I hope that that can happen with Greys too. It would definitely be hard to see them just become another show breed.

Unfortunately there's no easy answer, but for me the industry has to go for all the reasons you stated earlier. Personally I am firmly on the side of avoiding BSL and sticking to much more effective animal management legislation and programs but I understand where you're coming from. I do think it's likely that the amount of Greys in the community in 5 years that are a big threat to small dogs will be lesser, and I do think that Grey owners overall have been doing a good job of keeping their dogs and others safe, and I think that will continue long after BSL for Greys is lifted.

This is the unfortunate truth. I love the breed as it is now and while my drivey dogs might require different management to something like a lab, they more than make up for it in other ways. Being raised into their teenage months with the rest of their litter means most are perfectly dog sociable (prey drive issues aside); being bred for sport means most are incredibly healthy dogs; the handling and constant upheavals required for the sport means most are adaptable and outgoing. But when it's just for pets.. I suspect we'll see a lot more "rare" blue greyhounds and a lot more health and temperament problems. Honestly, it's the temperament that worries me the most- my slovenly, quiet, agreeable dogs are perfect as they are. I've seen the result of backyard breeding greyhounds for pets and the results were beyond terrible.

But yeah.. on the other side of all of that.. everything else. I wish there was a better answer, for the sake of the dogs. Some variation on the American system (to prevent abuses) might possibly work but it'd take the sport out of the hands of little hobby trainers anyway so.. yeah, I still don't know.

[Maddy]

I understand that all greyhounds born after 1st July 2017 will automatically be allowed to be muzzle free. Disaster waiting to happen. Once a few unsuitable greyhounds rip apart a few small fluffies they will go the way of the pitbull here in Vic and be banned totally. BSL at it's finest.

You know that the muzzling requirements are already BSL? Why should Greyhounds be subject to Breed Specific Legislation, particularly once they will no longer be being bred for the purposes of racing and live baited?

Because greyhounds have a higher prey drive than many other breeds, regardless of baiting or training, and there is a percentage that will see small dogs as prey. It's not discrimination, it's a breed trait. I have owned greys with very high drive (and still do) and while they are lovely dogs with people and larger dogs, they absolutely would kill something small and fluffy if they got the chance. Part of being a responsible owner is recognising and managing breed traits- pretending they don't exist does the breed no favours.

Prey drive is a *dog* trait, and not exclusive to any one breed. There are many breeds that have a higher potential for prey drive, and many dogs within many breeds that have a high prey drive. There are plenty of dogs of all breeds that will kill other dogs for non-prey drive reasons too. Breed Specific Legislation has been shown time and time again to be a complete failure in preventing dog attacks. Adequate and well resourced animal management and education programs are what is effective.

Roughly 25% of greys are not small dog safe. Let one of those dogs off lead at a park with a small dog and you'll have a dead small dog in less time than it takes you to realise what is happening. If your greyhound is muzzled and on leash, it can't chase down, grab and shake to death someone else's pet. Muzzling/leashing greyhounds is in no way similar to BSL for things like bull breeds. Muzzling/leashing is for their safety and the safety of other dogs/cats/small animals.

In a perfect world, everyone would be sensible and responsible but back here in reality, greyhounds could be at risk of actual BSL if ignorant idiots are allowed to let their greys run unmuzzled and offlead.

I know you don't understand the issue with greyhounds all that well (given you've had this same argument with Hazywal before) but if you're keen to find out for yourself, you're welcome to have one of my high drive fosters for a few weeks >.> (That is a serious offer, by the way. Nothing educates quite like the sight of your dog chasing down and destroying someone else's dog, while the attacked dog's owner screams for it to stop)

Roughly 25 per cent of statistics are made up. Prove I'm wrong.

It's not that I don't want to wade into a shit fight over numbers, Sheridan, it's just.. yeah, I don't.

My number comes from my own prey drive testing rates. GAP Vic had similar rates, last I heard.

[asal]

I understand that all greyhounds born after 1st July 2017 will automatically be allowed to be muzzle free. Disaster waiting to happen. Once a few unsuitable greyhounds rip apart a few small fluffies they will go the way of the pitbull here in Vic and be banned totally. BSL at it's finest.

You know that the muzzling requirements are already BSL? Why should Greyhounds be subject to Breed Specific Legislation, particularly once they will no longer be being bred for the purposes of racing and live baited?

Because greyhounds have a higher prey drive than many other breeds, regardless of baiting or training, and there is a percentage that will see small dogs as prey. It's not discrimination, it's a breed trait. I have owned greys with very high drive (and still do) and while they are lovely dogs with people and larger dogs, they absolutely would kill something small and fluffy if they got the chance. Part of being a responsible owner is recognising and managing breed traits- pretending they don't exist does the breed no favours.

Prey drive is a *dog* trait, and not exclusive to any one breed. There are many breeds that have a higher potential for prey drive, and many dogs within many breeds that have a high prey drive. There are plenty of dogs of all breeds that will kill other dogs for non-prey drive reasons too. Breed Specific Legislation has been shown time and time again to be a complete failure in preventing dog attacks. Adequate and well resourced animal management and education programs are what is effective.

Roughly 25% of greys are not small dog safe. Let one of those dogs off lead at a park with a small dog and you'll have a dead small dog in less time than it takes you to realise what is happening. If your greyhound is muzzled and on leash, it can't chase down, grab and shake to death someone else's pet. Muzzling/leashing greyhounds is in no way similar to BSL for things like bull breeds. Muzzling/leashing is for their safety and the safety of other dogs/cats/small animals.

In a perfect world, everyone would be sensible and responsible but back here in reality, greyhounds could be at risk of actual BSL if ignorant idiots are allowed to let their greys run unmuzzled and offlead.

I know you don't understand the issue with greyhounds all that well (given you've had this same argument with Hazywal before) but if you're keen to find out for yourself, you're welcome to have one of my high drive fosters for a few weeks >.> (That is a serious offer, by the way. Nothing educates quite like the sight of your dog chasing down and destroying someone else's dog, while the attacked dog's owner screams for it to stop)

Roughly 25% of Greyhounds (trusting your stats here) are not small dog safe after coming from an industry that heavily selected them for intense prey drive, did not socialise them to small dogs in their critical socialisation period (and potentially for years after), reinforced that drive over and over again and live baited many of them. I've got lots of experience with prey driven dogs, and once they've had a live kill (catching rabbits, possums, other animals while out or in their yards) the intensity of the drive goes through the roof and becomes much more difficult to manage. I would be *very* interested to see if that 25% stays once we're dealing with dogs that have not been bred, raised and trained in the racing industry. I suspect it won't.

As far as I can tell, Australia is one of the only countries with BSL for Greyhounds, yet other countries are not suffering from rampaging Greyhounds killing every small dog in sight while being allowed to run around off leash. On top of that, plenty of non-greencollar approved greyhounds are currently owned by people who do not comply with the legislation, and yet again we are not seeing rampaging greys on the loose killing other dogs in any sort of regularity.

I am not doubting that some Greyhounds are a true safety issue around small dogs, from genetics alone. Those dogs need to be rehomed carefully to owners who take their potential seriously, just like dogs of other breeds that also pose a safety risk. Part of that is likely to be the owner muzzling/leashing them in public. If the risk is too great for that individual dog, they should not be rehomed.

"In a perfect world, everyone would be sensible and responsible" - I agree that we don't live in a perfect world but the people that aren't sensible and responsible won't muzzle and leash their greys regardless of the rules. The vast majority *are* sensible and responsible and prevent their dogs ever being an issue. Meanwhile we have 75%+ of Greys that pose no risk subject to legislation that stigmatises them and hinders their adoptability. We've also got animal management officers wasting time attempting to enforce it rather than focusing on other strategies proven to be successful.

ETA: I would genuinely love to take you up on your offer, however I can't foster adult dogs - my dog is an arsehole to them on her own property (super social off the property). Not fair on the other dog. It's a shame as given the industry shutdown I'd really love to foster some Greys over the next 12 months and beyond.

Drive is not necessarily hereditary- I rehomed the litter sister of a Launceston Cup winner, he was a hard, driven dog, she went to a home with a cat and a chihuahua. I've had two litter sisters, one went on to be rehomed to the owner of our test small dog and the other.. prey drive too high to rehome. Breeders use popular sires thinking that the drive will be present in the pups but more often than not, litters are completely random.

As for things like socialisation.. the impacts are questionable. I had a dog surrendered to me who had been rehomed as a baby puppy, lived his whole life with a particular cat and then at 3 or 4 years of age.. chased down and killed that cat. I've taken in several pups (oopsie litters) who were never trained and again, prey drive levels were random- there was one who was cat safe, one was questionable on cats but fine with small dogs, another was definitely not small dog safe. There is a reason why every greyhound needs to be tested and that is that the dog's background is not particularly useful in estimating level of prey drive. Race training doesn't necessarily make any difference and live baiting only amplifies the dogs who were already on the higher end of the scale.

With racing gone, drive will be a lot less of a consideration in breeding and for some people (the ones who will let their dog offlead without thinking about it), I suppose that's a good thing. Personally though.. I don't think it's necessarily a good thing for the breed's future. The greys we have today are a product of their purpose- they might not be suited to the sort of person who can't be bothered with a leash but then, the breed shouldn't have to change to suit the lowest common denominator. Water down an important breed trait and you risk losing the characteristics that make the breed what it is.

" the breed shouldn't have to change to suit the lowest common denominator. "

the entire reason this thread exists is exactly because only one word of yours need changing Breed / industry. it was shut down because of the lowest common denominator.

found a dumped puppy today playing chicken with the traffic, (assumed it is dumped, had the lost look and not a house within a mile of where it was) took it to Animal Welfare to be told they are so full they cannot take any strays unless they have been injoured, lucky for the pup they discovered an injury to its tail so now has a safe haven intead of the council pound they were going to send me too instead, I doubt it would have had much of a future at a pound being so young and no chip odds are isnt vaccinated either n pounds are a death sentance for such pups im told.

there certainly isnt any room for an influx of greyhounds there at the moment

Edited August 11, 2016 by asal

[m-j]

I'm not suggesting vets would be as stupid as to falsify paperwork, I'm suggesting that faced with the prospect of having to hold dogs for GAP placements (or private rehoming)- something that would take up kennel space, time and money- that instead, dogs might come in to vets injured from "paddock accidents". Paddock accidents that weren't really accidents, if you're catching my drift?

In the 10 years that I was at the kennels with nearly 700 dogs going through in that time we had 3 fatalities. Yes we had injuries that required veterinary attention but only one that stopped the dog from racing and he was rehomed. I think if certain kennels were having a lot of "accidents" that required the dogs to be euthed they would be investigated with the new regulations that have been put in place and vets aren't silly they would probably be very suspicious also.

I know of one of the people that was mentioned in the Commission of Inquiry that was on the new board (or whatever they are called) and she was very much for the dogs/animals. I believe the new GRNSW board were genuinely concerned for the dogs welfare. Whereas the government on the other hand....hmmm.

[Steve]

O.K. a couple of points in question.

So given that Dogs are property and we were given property rights under the Magna Carta and our constitution if someone owns a dog and wants to humanely kill it there is no law and will never be a law that prevents them from doing so. they don't have to come in as paddock accidents all they need is for the owners to say they want them put down. If the vets won't do it anyone who has experience in euthanizing animals is able to do so with the owner's consent.

Other people may not like it that one person decides to terminate their dog's life or many of their dog's lives but there will never be a law to prevent this. The GRNSW board has said that their members must apply to get approval to have them killed but why would NSW breeder want to be members of something and be told what they can do with their dogs if its obsolete? So everyone seems to be assuming that dogs will be meekly handed over to rescue but the only place that will get them is that rescue gets to brag about how many they have had to handle.

So unless they make new laws which affect everyone in this state to outlaw gambling on grey racing they are not going to stop people from gambling on grey racing in other states and even if they did make a law to try to stop someone living in NSW from being able to gamble on this how the hell are they going to police it? People gamble on how long it will take paint to dry and they may be able to stop racing in NSW but seeing is believing that they can prevent people who live in NSW being able to gamble on races elsewhere.

Are they going ban owning greyhounds ? So far if you live in NSW and own a grey that's no offence so if you want to take it to another state or leave it in another state on lease or guardian home for it to race there or lay on someone's bed and mooch - nothing stopping you.

You can for now breed them or even if they ban that and where will that leave - people like Rebanne - you can still send them over the border to breed and whelp. Usually the trainers didn't even own the dogs anyway so all they have to do is find trainers in another state.

You can buy or lease property in another state and take all of the money that's been paid to vets, feed and equipment stores and wages interstate and do what ever you want .

How are they going to stop you training them here? Is a couple of dogs running around together a race? What makes it a race? Can I throw a ball and have a couple of dogs chasing it without it being a lure or a bait or a race to see which dog gets it first? How does any law change impact on EVERYTHING else and how can we as a community say its O.K. to have such enormous legislation dealt with as it has been for what some see as the greater good?

In Victoria they banned the hunting with foxhounds so everyone started using beagles - the hunting still continued and for a minute they could say the beagles were smaller so didn't damage the undergrowth as much as the bigger foxhounds until they started breeding bigger beagles which they haven't seemed to notice yet. Will we see Saluki racing, Whippet racing,Afghan racing any form of lure coursing etc? Why not? Will this be O.K. ? Will we be able to bet on or compete in agility events, flyball etc after all its a bunch of people selecting dogs for a competition which brings them a reward isn't it?

As with most of these things AR have some vision of what this will mean but because its based on a fanatics view point they have no care about the removal of people's rights nor can they see the possible unintended negative consequences that will affect many more than just the grey industry.

If it is really possible in this country to wipe out an industry based on reports that are being questioned as being bone fide and false currently being tested in court, where the process is rushed , and put through differently to most other legislation which is usually used for matters of urgency dealing with security, where a report [via corvus who is highly credentialled] is simply thrown aside where only a handful of people have ever been charged or found guilty of live baiting, where the leader of the Animal Justice Party who is the Ex president of AL is having his pockets piddled in then I think the game has new rules.

[Rebanne]

Great post Steve. And for those that think that after a few generations the racing bred grey will lose thier instincts Besides the fact that hardly anyone (if anyone) will bother to breed race bred greys for pets my showbred greys have had no race blood for many generations and they have plenty of instinct. Long before greyhound racing and coursing they were hunting prey big and little. It's all still there, under the skin and it doesn't take much to bring it out.

[asal]

Right on about anyone can take their dog to the vet and have it put down for no better reason then they want it put down, daughter wanted to be a vet and did work experience at a big practice, it broke her heart how many perfectly healthy young dogs came in daily, by the end of a week she had held over a dozen by the second week dozens, some were greyhounds think 3 in the 2 weeks she was there, the others some 30 odd were pets who either barked too much,had grown too big, they shed too much, chewed too much, the owner was moving or the kids had lost interest, she was devastated and scotched that line of work. but she had to admit that was better than the ones we often see in our area dumped and looking at every passing car looking for their owners, school holidays around here are the worst, mainly its big breeds, German shepherds, labs , goldens, or bullie breed. The big surprise was a car slowed down, the door opened and they didn't even stop the wheels rolling as they dumped a half grown boston terrier. it did its best to keep up with the car for nearly a k before came to a confused halt.

Picked up my dog food today and the lady at the counter believes once their greyhound trade is gone the business wont be able to continue.

Wonder how many know the massive Petbarn franchise began with a greyhound trainer who began buying his dog food by the ton to save, friends began to ask can they get some , then friends of friends n friends of their friends began turning up, until his wife said enough and he leased a warehouse in Kingswood. It all mushroomed from there.

There is millions going to be missing in income right down the chain, dog food, vets, even the tab income share for nsw n Baird. Heck hes trying to sell the electricity infrastructure to make ends meet, must be furious the china deal has been scotched.

Edited August 12, 2016 by asal

[Sheridan]

Steve, by the wording in the legislation people who get their dogs to chase a lure are caught by it, including those who lure course greyhounds.

[Salukifan]

Steve, by the wording in the legislation people who get their dogs to chase a lure are caught by it, including those who lure course greyhounds.

That is not my take. Those who 'race' greys are caught. Lure coursing is not a simple test of speed as referred to by the legislation. The dogs aren't even timed.

[Sheridan]

'Greyhound racing means racing between greyhounds in competitive pursuit of an artificial lure and includes,

I) a greyhound trial or training race and

II) racing in a test of speed of a greyhound or of greyhounds competing separately.

[mystify]

Fact sheet from Canberra Greyhounds

http://canberragreyhoundfacts.com.au/the-facts

Edited August 12, 2016 by mystify

[mystify]

Fact sheet from Canberra Greyhounds

http://canberragreyhoundfacts.com.au/the-facts

[melzawelza]

Fact sheet from Canberra Greyhounds

http://canberragreyhoundfacts.com.au/the-facts

Most of the greyhounds killed are for illness or old age? That alone makes this graphic complete nonsense. I guess all the Greyhounds taken to pounds in multiples, brought in to vets for 'total blood donation' in multiples, being used for non revival surgery training at universities, going in to rehoming programs or just found in mass pits in trainers backyards with bullets in their heads were just old??

All the shelter workers, rescues, vet surgeries and universities are just lying about the masses of the young, healthy greyhounds that come to them?

The industry continues to drag its name through the mud and show the country that it has no ability nor intent to change with this blatant denial.

Edited August 13, 2016 by melzawelza

[Papillon Kisses]

OMG, Melzawelza.

Those poor dogs.

[Maddy]

Fact sheet from Canberra Greyhounds

http://canberragreyhoundfacts.com.au/the-facts

Most of the greyhounds killed are for illness or old age? That alone makes this graphic complete nonsense. I guess all the Greyhounds taken to pounds in multiples, brought in to vets for 'total blood donation' in multiples, being used for non revival surgery training at universities, going in to rehoming programs or just found in mass pits in trainers backyards with bullets in their heads were just old??

All the shelter workers, rescues, vet surgeries and universities are just lying about the masses of the young, healthy greyhounds that come to them?

The industry continues to drag its name through the mud and show the country that it has no ability nor intent to change with this blatant denial.

I don't think I've ever had a greyhound over the age of five surrendered to me from a trainer. One of my current fosters (Jelly) is only alive because on the day that she was taken to the vet to be bled, they already had more than enough blood and her trainer wasn't willing to pay the $40 for regular euthanasia. Her trainer was upfront about this, he saw nothing wrong with what he had intended to do to a healthy, four year old dog.

Most vet clinics in Launceston use blood from living donors (and Jelly has actually donated blood several times since coming to me, two were life-threatening emergencies) so there is no reason for dogs to die just for their blood. Same with surgical training- training new vets is important but I think we need to reconsider what is acceptable there.

The claim that only old or unwell greyhounds are euthanased is utter horse shit.

[melzawelza]

Fact sheet from Canberra Greyhounds

http://canberragreyhoundfacts.com.au/the-facts

Most of the greyhounds killed are for illness or old age? That alone makes this graphic complete nonsense. I guess all the Greyhounds taken to pounds in multiples, brought in to vets for 'total blood donation' in multiples, being used for non revival surgery training at universities, going in to rehoming programs or just found in mass pits in trainers backyards with bullets in their heads were just old??

All the shelter workers, rescues, vet surgeries and universities are just lying about the masses of the young, healthy greyhounds that come to them?

The industry continues to drag its name through the mud and show the country that it has no ability nor intent to change with this blatant denial.

I don't think I've ever had a greyhound over the age of five surrendered to me from a trainer. One of my current fosters (Jelly) is only alive because on the day that she was taken to the vet to be bled, they already had more than enough blood and her trainer wasn't willing to pay the $40 for regular euthanasia. Her trainer was upfront about this, he saw nothing wrong with what he had intended to do to a healthy, four year old dog.

Most vet clinics in Launceston use blood from living donors (and Jelly has actually donated blood several times since coming to me, two were life-threatening emergencies) so there is no reason for dogs to die just for their blood. Same with surgical training- training new vets is important but I think we need to reconsider what is acceptable there.

The claim that only old or unwell greyhounds are euthanased is utter horse shit.

Yes to all of this.

[~Lisa~]

Fact sheet from Canberra Greyhounds

http://canberragreyhoundfacts.com.au/the-facts

If this 'fact sheet' is the best they can come up with I don't think they will convince anyone! Just the first few things to jump out at me are

'We already know injuries and litters are just a fraction of what was guessed during the Inquiry'

Since when is 'We already know' evidence of anything? Who already knows, how do they already know? What evidence is there that "they" know anything? What "fraction" was it? The fraction could be 99% of what was guessed, it is still a fraction. This isn't a fact at all yet they have it listed on a fact sheet. Anyone can read a report and say 'I already know this is wrong', that doesn't prove anything as fact.

'The figure of "50-70%" of greyhound pups being euthanised is a fabrication, with less than one-tenth of that number being the actual figure - and most of that figure is for illness, old age and other'

Even if they were going to prove that the actual figure is less than one-tenth... they have just claimed that some of the greyhound PUPS euthanised were done so for reason of old age. Not a great way to state something as fact.

'Many rehomed greyhounds were previously counted as part of 'wastage' when they were actually healthy and happy pets'

How many is 'many'? 1,000? 15? It's just a meaningless thing to say, the word 'many' is completely subjective.