Nsw To Ban Greyhound Racing From July 2017

[Maddy]

If you look back through this thread, there were people involved in the industry claiming that a lot of reform has happened and that, in itself, was a reason not to support a ban. And outside of this forum, on many of the FB racing groups, the same thing was being argued. Not that any of it matters now, of course. The industry will bully and whine their way out of any of the proposed reforms and nothing will change.

Sorry I should have said I wasn't referring to the comments on social media, but to emails I have received regarding the strategies that were/had been used in the 'fight' to oppose the ban. Most of the time when I mentioned the changes in this thread regarding the 50%reduction of dogs being bred, the rules regarding the transparency regarding the fate of the dogs was being used as an example of the fact that the industry could change, but as WM says achieving this in only 12 mths is not fast enough for the general public.

The reforms I mentioned that had been taken off the table were only proposed reforms not actual reforms, pity they weren't made to uphold them before Baird changed his mind.

My experience with the industry has been overwhelmingly negative

I do understand this and while I also have had similar experiences to those that you have mentioned I also have friends at this moment who have as many dogs in their kennels waiting to go into GAP as you mentioned that you have rescued in 10 yrs. Some of them have been there over 12 mths and the 4 they have kept pets, I have shared a couch with and they have done this for many years, it's these people who have a passion for their hobby but above all a love of dogs that I feel for and my friends aren't the only ones that I know of.

The purebred breeders are feeling annoyed that the powers that be feel they need to pay for their hobby, this is how my friends feel plus the whole country believes just because they have a hobby that's been ruined, they are scumbags like the participants that everyone hears about and have judged them without knowing them.

Ultimately, remaining silent is condoning the behaviour of those doing the wrong thing. If enough of the good trainers were willing to come forward, name names, be honest about what goes on, maybe the scum could be cleaned away and things could change. But they don't. In doing nothing, they've made a choice. Back when I was stuck running GAP down here (a short, horrible period that I'd rather forget), I was made to sign an agreement stating that I would never say anything to anyone that would bring the sport into disrepute. This included speaking to the media (besides statements approved by them), it also included not reporting things I'd seen to the RSPCA. A similar clause exists under GAR. A rule that basically prohibits anyone from speaking out if it might damage the image of the sport. A lot of the AR nuts like to grasp at some of the much less common issues while right there, in front of their noses, is the industry enforcing corruption and a culture of secrecy, in a way that can be proven without any effort at all. Go figure.

[m-j]

If you look back through this thread, there were people involved in the industry claiming that a lot of reform has happened and that, in itself, was a reason not to support a ban. And outside of this forum, on many of the FB racing groups, the same thing was being argued. Not that any of it matters now, of course. The industry will bully and whine their way out of any of the proposed reforms and nothing will change.

Sorry I should have said I wasn't referring to the comments on social media, but to emails I have received regarding the strategies that were/had been used in the 'fight' to oppose the ban. Most of the time when I mentioned the changes in this thread regarding the 50%reduction of dogs being bred, the rules regarding the transparency regarding the fate of the dogs was being used as an example of the fact that the industry could change, but as WM says achieving this in only 12 mths is not fast enough for the general public.

The reforms I mentioned that had been taken off the table were only proposed reforms not actual reforms, pity they weren't made to uphold them before Baird changed his mind.

My experience with the industry has been overwhelmingly negative

I do understand this and while I also have had similar experiences to those that you have mentioned I also have friends at this moment who have as many dogs in their kennels waiting to go into GAP as you mentioned that you have rescued in 10 yrs. Some of them have been there over 12 mths and the 4 they have kept pets, I have shared a couch with and they have done this for many years, it's these people who have a passion for their hobby but above all a love of dogs that I feel for and my friends aren't the only ones that I know of.

The purebred breeders are feeling annoyed that the powers that be feel they need to pay for their hobby, this is how my friends feel plus the whole country believes just because they have a hobby that's been ruined, they are scumbags like the participants that everyone hears about and have judged them without knowing them.

Ultimately, remaining silent is condoning the behaviour of those doing the wrong thing. If enough of the good trainers were willing to come forward, name names, be honest about what goes on, maybe the scum could be cleaned away and things could change. But they don't. In doing nothing, they've made a choice. Back when I was stuck running GAP down here (a short, horrible period that I'd rather forget), I was made to sign an agreement stating that I would never say anything to anyone that would bring the sport into disrepute. This included speaking to the media (besides statements approved by them), it also included not reporting things I'd seen to the RSPCA. A similar clause exists under GAR. A rule that basically prohibits anyone from speaking out if it might damage the image of the sport. A lot of the AR nuts like to grasp at some of the much less common issues while right there, in front of their noses, is the industry enforcing corruption and a culture of secrecy, in a way that can be proven without any effort at all. Go figure.

It falls on deaf ears what is the point! Just like you they and others have been held to ransom. As I have said if there was legislation more places to complain to.

[Maddy]

If you look back through this thread, there were people involved in the industry claiming that a lot of reform has happened and that, in itself, was a reason not to support a ban. And outside of this forum, on many of the FB racing groups, the same thing was being argued. Not that any of it matters now, of course. The industry will bully and whine their way out of any of the proposed reforms and nothing will change.

Sorry I should have said I wasn't referring to the comments on social media, but to emails I have received regarding the strategies that were/had been used in the 'fight' to oppose the ban. Most of the time when I mentioned the changes in this thread regarding the 50%reduction of dogs being bred, the rules regarding the transparency regarding the fate of the dogs was being used as an example of the fact that the industry could change, but as WM says achieving this in only 12 mths is not fast enough for the general public.

The reforms I mentioned that had been taken off the table were only proposed reforms not actual reforms, pity they weren't made to uphold them before Baird changed his mind.

My experience with the industry has been overwhelmingly negative

I do understand this and while I also have had similar experiences to those that you have mentioned I also have friends at this moment who have as many dogs in their kennels waiting to go into GAP as you mentioned that you have rescued in 10 yrs. Some of them have been there over 12 mths and the 4 they have kept pets, I have shared a couch with and they have done this for many years, it's these people who have a passion for their hobby but above all a love of dogs that I feel for and my friends aren't the only ones that I know of.

The purebred breeders are feeling annoyed that the powers that be feel they need to pay for their hobby, this is how my friends feel plus the whole country believes just because they have a hobby that's been ruined, they are scumbags like the participants that everyone hears about and have judged them without knowing them.

Ultimately, remaining silent is condoning the behaviour of those doing the wrong thing. If enough of the good trainers were willing to come forward, name names, be honest about what goes on, maybe the scum could be cleaned away and things could change. But they don't. In doing nothing, they've made a choice. Back when I was stuck running GAP down here (a short, horrible period that I'd rather forget), I was made to sign an agreement stating that I would never say anything to anyone that would bring the sport into disrepute. This included speaking to the media (besides statements approved by them), it also included not reporting things I'd seen to the RSPCA. A similar clause exists under GAR. A rule that basically prohibits anyone from speaking out if it might damage the image of the sport. A lot of the AR nuts like to grasp at some of the much less common issues while right there, in front of their noses, is the industry enforcing corruption and a culture of secrecy, in a way that can be proven without any effort at all. Go figure.

It falls on deaf ears what is the point! Just like you they and others have been held to ransom. As I have said if there was legislation more places to complain to.

Part of the problem is that no one will admit to anything that goes on because it does not benefit them to do so, in the short term. If the majority are good people, and if they were willing to stand up as a group and demand change, there is a good chance it'd happen. This requires, however, that the majority want what is best for the sport and what is best for the dogs. The selfish attitude of "it's not us, it's them" (See also: pedigree dog world, "It's the bad breeders") achieves absolutely nothing.

Part of me feels sorry for the good trainers but another part of me feels that if they really wanted change, it could be done.

[Steve]

If you look back through this thread, there were people involved in the industry claiming that a lot of reform has happened and that, in itself, was a reason not to support a ban. And outside of this forum, on many of the FB racing groups, the same thing was being argued. Not that any of it matters now, of course. The industry will bully and whine their way out of any of the proposed reforms and nothing will change.

Sorry I should have said I wasn't referring to the comments on social media, but to emails I have received regarding the strategies that were/had been used in the 'fight' to oppose the ban. Most of the time when I mentioned the changes in this thread regarding the 50%reduction of dogs being bred, the rules regarding the transparency regarding the fate of the dogs was being used as an example of the fact that the industry could change, but as WM says achieving this in only 12 mths is not fast enough for the general public.

The reforms I mentioned that had been taken off the table were only proposed reforms not actual reforms, pity they weren't made to uphold them before Baird changed his mind.

My experience with the industry has been overwhelmingly negative

I do understand this and while I also have had similar experiences to those that you have mentioned I also have friends at this moment who have as many dogs in their kennels waiting to go into GAP as you mentioned that you have rescued in 10 yrs. Some of them have been there over 12 mths and the 4 they have kept pets, I have shared a couch with and they have done this for many years, it's these people who have a passion for their hobby but above all a love of dogs that I feel for and my friends aren't the only ones that I know of.

The purebred breeders are feeling annoyed that the powers that be feel they need to pay for their hobby, this is how my friends feel plus the whole country believes just because they have a hobby that's been ruined, they are scumbags like the participants that everyone hears about and have judged them without knowing them.

Ultimately, remaining silent is condoning the behaviour of those doing the wrong thing. If enough of the good trainers were willing to come forward, name names, be honest about what goes on, maybe the scum could be cleaned away and things could change. But they don't. In doing nothing, they've made a choice. Back when I was stuck running GAP down here (a short, horrible period that I'd rather forget), I was made to sign an agreement stating that I would never say anything to anyone that would bring the sport into disrepute. This included speaking to the media (besides statements approved by them), it also included not reporting things I'd seen to the RSPCA. A similar clause exists under GAR. A rule that basically prohibits anyone from speaking out if it might damage the image of the sport. A lot of the AR nuts like to grasp at some of the much less common issues while right there, in front of their noses, is the industry enforcing corruption and a culture of secrecy, in a way that can be proven without any effort at all. Go figure.

But that assumes that the good trainers even know what they get up to and what they were doing and from what Im hearing thats just not true. Its hardly something that is advertised and chatted about to anyone who they dont trust. You place EVERYONE who wants to own and train greys in the same basket .They are either animal abusers or they are complicent in it without consideration for how many did really know enough to be able to report it. The second part of your post is about self management and self policing which is always open to corruption and bias and why Vicdogs would be better to advocate for reasonable conditions for everyone who wants to breed dogs rather than sit back and help stick it to everyone else and bathe in the glow that their exemptions won't be removed and they don't become just like the riff raff who choose not to be their members. It attracts dead beats who only join for the exemptions and sets them up for failure sooner rather than later and always makes them a shinier target and open to accusations of corruption,secrecy and bias for AR loonies. If you are going to expect enforcement you have to have a third party arms length party that can accept complaints and have nothing to gain by hushing things up and that includes the RSPCA.

[Maddy]

If you look back through this thread, there were people involved in the industry claiming that a lot of reform has happened and that, in itself, was a reason not to support a ban. And outside of this forum, on many of the FB racing groups, the same thing was being argued. Not that any of it matters now, of course. The industry will bully and whine their way out of any of the proposed reforms and nothing will change.

Sorry I should have said I wasn't referring to the comments on social media, but to emails I have received regarding the strategies that were/had been used in the 'fight' to oppose the ban. Most of the time when I mentioned the changes in this thread regarding the 50%reduction of dogs being bred, the rules regarding the transparency regarding the fate of the dogs was being used as an example of the fact that the industry could change, but as WM says achieving this in only 12 mths is not fast enough for the general public.

The reforms I mentioned that had been taken off the table were only proposed reforms not actual reforms, pity they weren't made to uphold them before Baird changed his mind.

My experience with the industry has been overwhelmingly negative

I do understand this and while I also have had similar experiences to those that you have mentioned I also have friends at this moment who have as many dogs in their kennels waiting to go into GAP as you mentioned that you have rescued in 10 yrs. Some of them have been there over 12 mths and the 4 they have kept pets, I have shared a couch with and they have done this for many years, it's these people who have a passion for their hobby but above all a love of dogs that I feel for and my friends aren't the only ones that I know of.

The purebred breeders are feeling annoyed that the powers that be feel they need to pay for their hobby, this is how my friends feel plus the whole country believes just because they have a hobby that's been ruined, they are scumbags like the participants that everyone hears about and have judged them without knowing them.

Ultimately, remaining silent is condoning the behaviour of those doing the wrong thing. If enough of the good trainers were willing to come forward, name names, be honest about what goes on, maybe the scum could be cleaned away and things could change. But they don't. In doing nothing, they've made a choice. Back when I was stuck running GAP down here (a short, horrible period that I'd rather forget), I was made to sign an agreement stating that I would never say anything to anyone that would bring the sport into disrepute. This included speaking to the media (besides statements approved by them), it also included not reporting things I'd seen to the RSPCA. A similar clause exists under GAR. A rule that basically prohibits anyone from speaking out if it might damage the image of the sport. A lot of the AR nuts like to grasp at some of the much less common issues while right there, in front of their noses, is the industry enforcing corruption and a culture of secrecy, in a way that can be proven without any effort at all. Go figure.

But that assumes that the good trainers even know what they get up to and what they were doing and from what Im hearing thats just not true. Its hardly something that is advertised and chatted about to anyone who they dont trust. You place EVERYONE who wants to own and train greys in the same basket .They are either animal abusers or they are complicent in it without consideration for how many did really know enough to be able to report it. The second part of your post is about self management and self policing which is always open to corruption and bias and why Vicdogs would be better to advocate for reasonable conditions for everyone who wants to breed dogs rather than sit back and help stick it to everyone else and bathe in the glow that their exemptions won't be removed and they don't become just like the riff raff who choose not to be their members. It attracts dead beats who only join for the exemptions and sets them up for failure sooner rather than later and always makes them a shinier target and open to accusations of corruption,secrecy and bias for AR loonies. If you are going to expect enforcement you have to have a third party arms length party that can accept complaints and have nothing to gain by hushing things up and that includes the RSPCA.

In my experience, many are like teenage girls in that they like to gossip. One person falls out with another, they have a good bitch to anyone who'll listen. There are cliques and certain people go in and out of fashion. In small states like Tasmania, everyone knows everyone elses' business. In places like NSW, I suppose it'd be more of a regional thing, not that it makes a great deal of difference. You're also assuming that those doing the wrong thing are actually going to some sort of effort to hide it and again, from my experience, that's not really true. I've had trainers admit to me that baiting happened on their property (not by them, of course, but a mysterious "someone"). I know of trainers who go through huge numbers of dogs and it's no secret. Then there are the things that happen that aren't against any rule but the public would likely not be comfortable with- dogs being destroyed at the track because of relatively minor injuries (in terms of their health) that are likely to mean they'll never race successfully again. People breeding several litters out of one bitch in the hopes of getting that elusive big winner, etc, etc.

Maybe a few very sheltered trainers could claim ignorance of what goes on but they'd be a tiny minority. What remains and those who do the wrong thing and those who watch the wrong thing happen. This is not saying they are the same- but those who stand by and do nothing cannot complain when the sport does eventually get taken away from them.

Regarding the second part of my post, you could not be more incorrect. In no way was I suggesting self management because that is what is already in place and already very obviously failing. What I was saying was that participants need to take some responsibility, instead of claiming that because it was not them, they shouldn't have to worry about it. This is like witnessing a murder and instead of calling the police, shrugging your shoulders and saying, "Well, I didn't murder anyone so it's not my business and not my problem." It seems obvious to me that if the industry is under threat because of a systemic issue, then all parties concerned should be looking at how to solve the problem. Instead, they're just trying to sweep it back under the rug.

[asal]

If you look back through this thread, there were people involved in the industry claiming that a lot of reform has happened and that, in itself, was a reason not to support a ban. And outside of this forum, on many of the FB racing groups, the same thing was being argued. Not that any of it matters now, of course. The industry will bully and whine their way out of any of the proposed reforms and nothing will change.

Sorry I should have said I wasn't referring to the comments on social media, but to emails I have received regarding the strategies that were/had been used in the 'fight' to oppose the ban. Most of the time when I mentioned the changes in this thread regarding the 50%reduction of dogs being bred, the rules regarding the transparency regarding the fate of the dogs was being used as an example of the fact that the industry could change, but as WM says achieving this in only 12 mths is not fast enough for the general public.

The reforms I mentioned that had been taken off the table were only proposed reforms not actual reforms, pity they weren't made to uphold them before Baird changed his mind.

My experience with the industry has been overwhelmingly negative

I do understand this and while I also have had similar experiences to those that you have mentioned I also have friends at this moment who have as many dogs in their kennels waiting to go into GAP as you mentioned that you have rescued in 10 yrs. Some of them have been there over 12 mths and the 4 they have kept pets, I have shared a couch with and they have done this for many years, it's these people who have a passion for their hobby but above all a love of dogs that I feel for and my friends aren't the only ones that I know of.

The purebred breeders are feeling annoyed that the powers that be feel they need to pay for their hobby, this is how my friends feel plus the whole country believes just because they have a hobby that's been ruined, they are scumbags like the participants that everyone hears about and have judged them without knowing them.

Ultimately, remaining silent is condoning the behaviour of those doing the wrong thing. If enough of the good trainers were willing to come forward, name names, be honest about what goes on, maybe the scum could be cleaned away and things could change. But they don't. In doing nothing, they've made a choice. Back when I was stuck running GAP down here (a short, horrible period that I'd rather forget), I was made to sign an agreement stating that I would never say anything to anyone that would bring the sport into disrepute. This included speaking to the media (besides statements approved by them), it also included not reporting things I'd seen to the RSPCA. A similar clause exists under GAR. A rule that basically prohibits anyone from speaking out if it might damage the image of the sport. A lot of the AR nuts like to grasp at some of the much less common issues while right there, in front of their noses, is the industry enforcing corruption and a culture of secrecy, in a way that can be proven without any effort at all. Go figure.

But that assumes that the good trainers even know what they get up to and what they were doing and from what Im hearing thats just not true. Its hardly something that is advertised and chatted about to anyone who they dont trust. You place EVERYONE who wants to own and train greys in the same basket .They are either animal abusers or they are complicent in it without consideration for how many did really know enough to be able to report it. The second part of your post is about self management and self policing which is always open to corruption and bias and why Vicdogs would be better to advocate for reasonable conditions for everyone who wants to breed dogs rather than sit back and help stick it to everyone else and bathe in the glow that their exemptions won't be removed and they don't become just like the riff raff who choose not to be their members. It attracts dead beats who only join for the exemptions and sets them up for failure sooner rather than later and always makes them a shinier target and open to accusations of corruption,secrecy and bias for AR loonies. If you are going to expect enforcement you have to have a third party arms length party that can accept complaints and have nothing to gain by hushing things up and that includes the RSPCA.

In my experience, many are like teenage girls in that they like to gossip. One person falls out with another, they have a good bitch to anyone who'll listen. There are cliques and certain people go in and out of fashion. In small states like Tasmania, everyone knows everyone elses' business. In places like NSW, I suppose it'd be more of a regional thing, not that it makes a great deal of difference. You're also assuming that those doing the wrong thing are actually going to some sort of effort to hide it and again, from my experience, that's not really true. I've had trainers admit to me that baiting happened on their property (not by them, of course, but a mysterious "someone"). I know of trainers who go through huge numbers of dogs and it's no secret. Then there are the things that happen that aren't against any rule but the public would likely not be comfortable with- dogs being destroyed at the track because of relatively minor injuries (in terms of their health) that are likely to mean they'll never race successfully again. People breeding several litters out of one bitch in the hopes of getting that elusive big winner, etc, etc.

Maybe a few very sheltered trainers could claim ignorance of what goes on but they'd be a tiny minority. What remains and those who do the wrong thing and those who watch the wrong thing happen. This is not saying they are the same- but those who stand by and do nothing cannot complain when the sport does eventually get taken away from them.

Regarding the second part of my post, you could not be more incorrect. In no way was I suggesting self management because that is what is already in place and already very obviously failing. What I was saying was that participants need to take some responsibility, instead of claiming that because it was not them, they shouldn't have to worry about it. This is like witnessing a murder and instead of calling the police, shrugging your shoulders and saying, "Well, I didn't murder anyone so it's not my business and not my problem." It seems obvious to me that if the industry is under threat because of a systemic issue, then all parties concerned should be looking at how to solve the problem. Instead, they're just trying to sweep it back under the rug.

Steve the "experience" of this person far exceeds anyone on this forum, think its a waste of time having someone like this focusing on just dog owners. This the the kind of lawmakers we need, then once all have been jailed and taken care of there will never be any more cases involving pedophiles, rapists, robbers, domestic violence or any other form of innocents abuse. everyone will be jailed because if you didn't stop it your just as guilty even if you didn't even know what was happening next door or out of your sight or hearing let alone what happened. This is the future

[asal]

If you look back through this thread, there were people involved in the industry claiming that a lot of reform has happened and that, in itself, was a reason not to support a ban. And outside of this forum, on many of the FB racing groups, the same thing was being argued. Not that any of it matters now, of course. The industry will bully and whine their way out of any of the proposed reforms and nothing will change.

Sorry I should have said I wasn't referring to the comments on social media, but to emails I have received regarding the strategies that were/had been used in the 'fight' to oppose the ban. Most of the time when I mentioned the changes in this thread regarding the 50%reduction of dogs being bred, the rules regarding the transparency regarding the fate of the dogs was being used as an example of the fact that the industry could change, but as WM says achieving this in only 12 mths is not fast enough for the general public.

The reforms I mentioned that had been taken off the table were only proposed reforms not actual reforms, pity they weren't made to uphold them before Baird changed his mind.

My experience with the industry has been overwhelmingly negative

I do understand this and while I also have had similar experiences to those that you have mentioned I also have friends at this moment who have as many dogs in their kennels waiting to go into GAP as you mentioned that you have rescued in 10 yrs. Some of them have been there over 12 mths and the 4 they have kept pets, I have shared a couch with and they have done this for many years, it's these people who have a passion for their hobby but above all a love of dogs that I feel for and my friends aren't the only ones that I know of.

The purebred breeders are feeling annoyed that the powers that be feel they need to pay for their hobby, this is how my friends feel plus the whole country believes just because they have a hobby that's been ruined, they are scumbags like the participants that everyone hears about and have judged them without knowing them.

Ultimately, remaining silent is condoning the behaviour of those doing the wrong thing. If enough of the good trainers were willing to come forward, name names, be honest about what goes on, maybe the scum could be cleaned away and things could change. But they don't. In doing nothing, they've made a choice. Back when I was stuck running GAP down here (a short, horrible period that I'd rather forget), I was made to sign an agreement stating that I would never say anything to anyone that would bring the sport into disrepute. This included speaking to the media (besides statements approved by them), it also included not reporting things I'd seen to the RSPCA. A similar clause exists under GAR. A rule that basically prohibits anyone from speaking out if it might damage the image of the sport. A lot of the AR nuts like to grasp at some of the much less common issues while right there, in front of their noses, is the industry enforcing corruption and a culture of secrecy, in a way that can be proven without any effort at all. Go figure.

But that assumes that the good trainers even know what they get up to and what they were doing and from what Im hearing thats just not true. Its hardly something that is advertised and chatted about to anyone who they dont trust. You place EVERYONE who wants to own and train greys in the same basket .They are either animal abusers or they are complicent in it without consideration for how many did really know enough to be able to report it. The second part of your post is about self management and self policing which is always open to corruption and bias and why Vicdogs would be better to advocate for reasonable conditions for everyone who wants to breed dogs rather than sit back and help stick it to everyone else and bathe in the glow that their exemptions won't be removed and they don't become just like the riff raff who choose not to be their members. It attracts dead beats who only join for the exemptions and sets them up for failure sooner rather than later and always makes them a shinier target and open to accusations of corruption,secrecy and bias for AR loonies. If you are going to expect enforcement you have to have a third party arms length party that can accept complaints and have nothing to gain by hushing things up and that includes the RSPCA.

Think that now if you are to be a "good" anyone you need to spy on all and report or you too will be tried and convicted, if you fail to find out first and report then the same penalty applies, no such thing as innocent of anything with this new age dawning.

It does remind me of the stories of why my grandfathers ancestors who fled Spain during the inquisition, if you failed to report anyone and regularly, then you yourself risked arrest and torture because to have remained silent when the nation needed to be purged meant you were trying to hide you were a heretic.

good old history, always seem to repeat itself although the guises seem different the workings seem to repeat for some weird reason? Heretic, puppy farmer, hasnt the same ring to it, at least they dont get the rack now just public humiliation and disgust, who cares if a percentage are innocent?

Edited November 11, 2016 by asal

[moosmum]

Geez way to generalise.

Yes, it is a generalization.

Is it acceptable to generalize welfare issues attributable to a group identity to dismiss the lot, or isn't it?

Its the obvious solution to an identitity that refuses change in line with community expectation. I totaly agree.

The draw back tho' is, you are the experts setting the standard to follow here. It this the ONLY way? 'cos you will have to live with the answer

[Steve]

If you look back through this thread, there were people involved in the industry claiming that a lot of reform has happened and that, in itself, was a reason not to support a ban. And outside of this forum, on many of the FB racing groups, the same thing was being argued. Not that any of it matters now, of course. The industry will bully and whine their way out of any of the proposed reforms and nothing will change.

Sorry I should have said I wasn't referring to the comments on social media, but to emails I have received regarding the strategies that were/had been used in the 'fight' to oppose the ban. Most of the time when I mentioned the changes in this thread regarding the 50%reduction of dogs being bred, the rules regarding the transparency regarding the fate of the dogs was being used as an example of the fact that the industry could change, but as WM says achieving this in only 12 mths is not fast enough for the general public.

The reforms I mentioned that had been taken off the table were only proposed reforms not actual reforms, pity they weren't made to uphold them before Baird changed his mind.

My experience with the industry has been overwhelmingly negative

I do understand this and while I also have had similar experiences to those that you have mentioned I also have friends at this moment who have as many dogs in their kennels waiting to go into GAP as you mentioned that you have rescued in 10 yrs. Some of them have been there over 12 mths and the 4 they have kept pets, I have shared a couch with and they have done this for many years, it's these people who have a passion for their hobby but above all a love of dogs that I feel for and my friends aren't the only ones that I know of.

The purebred breeders are feeling annoyed that the powers that be feel they need to pay for their hobby, this is how my friends feel plus the whole country believes just because they have a hobby that's been ruined, they are scumbags like the participants that everyone hears about and have judged them without knowing them.

Ultimately, remaining silent is condoning the behaviour of those doing the wrong thing. If enough of the good trainers were willing to come forward, name names, be honest about what goes on, maybe the scum could be cleaned away and things could change. But they don't. In doing nothing, they've made a choice. Back when I was stuck running GAP down here (a short, horrible period that I'd rather forget), I was made to sign an agreement stating that I would never say anything to anyone that would bring the sport into disrepute. This included speaking to the media (besides statements approved by them), it also included not reporting things I'd seen to the RSPCA. A similar clause exists under GAR. A rule that basically prohibits anyone from speaking out if it might damage the image of the sport. A lot of the AR nuts like to grasp at some of the much less common issues while right there, in front of their noses, is the industry enforcing corruption and a culture of secrecy, in a way that can be proven without any effort at all. Go figure.

But that assumes that the good trainers even know what they get up to and what they were doing and from what Im hearing thats just not true. Its hardly something that is advertised and chatted about to anyone who they dont trust. You place EVERYONE who wants to own and train greys in the same basket .They are either animal abusers or they are complicent in it without consideration for how many did really know enough to be able to report it. The second part of your post is about self management and self policing which is always open to corruption and bias and why Vicdogs would be better to advocate for reasonable conditions for everyone who wants to breed dogs rather than sit back and help stick it to everyone else and bathe in the glow that their exemptions won't be removed and they don't become just like the riff raff who choose not to be their members. It attracts dead beats who only join for the exemptions and sets them up for failure sooner rather than later and always makes them a shinier target and open to accusations of corruption,secrecy and bias for AR loonies. If you are going to expect enforcement you have to have a third party arms length party that can accept complaints and have nothing to gain by hushing things up and that includes the RSPCA.

In my experience, many are like teenage girls in that they like to gossip. One person falls out with another, they have a good bitch to anyone who'll listen. There are cliques and certain people go in and out of fashion. In small states like Tasmania, everyone knows everyone elses' business. In places like NSW, I suppose it'd be more of a regional thing, not that it makes a great deal of difference. You're also assuming that those doing the wrong thing are actually going to some sort of effort to hide it and again, from my experience, that's not really true. I've had trainers admit to me that baiting happened on their property (not by them, of course, but a mysterious "someone"). I know of trainers who go through huge numbers of dogs and it's no secret. Then there are the things that happen that aren't against any rule but the public would likely not be comfortable with- dogs being destroyed at the track because of relatively minor injuries (in terms of their health) that are likely to mean they'll never race successfully again. People breeding several litters out of one bitch in the hopes of getting that elusive big winner, etc, etc.

Maybe a few very sheltered trainers could claim ignorance of what goes on but they'd be a tiny minority. What remains and those who do the wrong thing and those who watch the wrong thing happen. This is not saying they are the same- but those who stand by and do nothing cannot complain when the sport does eventually get taken away from them.

Regarding the second part of my post, you could not be more incorrect. In no way was I suggesting self management because that is what is already in place and already very obviously failing. What I was saying was that participants need to take some responsibility, instead of claiming that because it was not them, they shouldn't have to worry about it. This is like witnessing a murder and instead of calling the police, shrugging your shoulders and saying, "Well, I didn't murder anyone so it's not my business and not my problem." It seems obvious to me that if the industry is under threat because of a systemic issue, then all parties concerned should be looking at how to solve the problem. Instead, they're just trying to sweep it back under the rug.

I knew you were not suggesting self management and I knew you were saying exactly the opposite and I was agreeing with you. I'm sorry but I refuse to accept that every person who was not doing the wrong thing is responsible for what was going on with others.I will not accept that everyone in a group should be judged by the actions of a few. If its more than a feww then where are they and why havent they been charged in huge numbers? I also refuse to accept that this new thing we seem to be calling the community and changing public opinion is about what the vast majority of people think and feel and not a noisy minority who have made it difficult for anyone who doesn't agree to say so in fear of not being politically correct and they will be beaten up and judged to be a bad person because they happen to have a different opinion.

[Maddy]

Steve the "experience" of this person far exceeds anyone on this forum, think its a waste of time having someone like this focusing on just dog owners. This the the kind of lawmakers we need, then once all have been jailed and taken care of there will never be any more cases involving pedophiles, rapists, robbers, domestic violence or any other form of innocents abuse. everyone will be jailed because if you didn't stop it your just as guilty even if you didn't even know what was happening next door or out of your sight or hearing let alone what happened. This is the future

It exceeds your experience with greyhounds and the industry- which is, by your own admission, none. The same applies to Steve; I have a lot of respect for her but I disagree with her opinion, based on my experience. The rest of your reply is an absurd slippery slope argument that deserves exactly none of my time.

Steve, it's not that those not involved in the wrong-doing are doing the wrong thing just by being trainers, it's that the vast majority of aware of the issues and refuse to speak up. If an ANKC breeder knew of another ANKC breeder who did something like.. routinely drowned unwanted puppies or who lied on breeding registration papers (used a different sire, etc) but that person did not report it, would you not agree that the person shares some amount of guilt by allowing it to continue? If you knew of someone who beat their child, would you not report it? I'm not just talking about actual breaches of law or rules that could be reported to governing bodies, by the way, but also breaches of what most of us would consider reasonable standards. To give you an example.. a bitch who carries epilepsy and throws at least one epileptic pup in each litter- to the general public, I think it would be reasonable to expect that after one or two litters when this issue became obvious, that breeding would cease with this bitch. Or, if breeding must continue, that breeding further out of the line be considered. Instead, the exact opposite took place- more litters, even more doubling up on lines. Epilepsy is rife amongst her pups but this is not against any law or rule. It seems like it shouldn't be necessary to police common sense and some basic care for the welfare of the animals but here we are, having this discussion

I think it's worth pointing out (again) that I don't want to see racing gone, what I want is for the current industry to be completely dismantled (because it is entirely beyond saving) and thenrebuilt in such a way that severely limits or even eliminates the factors that lead to the problems. Involving large amounts of money is obviously one of those factors. Let me put it to you this way.. if winning a Best of Breed or Best in Group netted you a couple of thousand dollars, I think you'd quickly see a rise in very dodgy behaviour. The flow-on effects from a change like that are considerable and would change the very nature of the hobby. And that's just one example.

Written by Moosmum (in case asal gets confused again)

The draw back tho' is, you are the experts setting the standard to follow here. It this the ONLY way? 'cos you will have to live with the answer

This is discussion on a dog forum. We're not debating the matter in parliament, there's no vote, it's just an exchange of opinions for the sake of it.

[asal]

If you look back through this thread, there were people involved in the industry claiming that a lot of reform has happened and that, in itself, was a reason not to support a ban. And outside of this forum, on many of the FB racing groups, the same thing was being argued. Not that any of it matters now, of course. The industry will bully and whine their way out of any of the proposed reforms and nothing will change.

Sorry I should have said I wasn't referring to the comments on social media, but to emails I have received regarding the strategies that were/had been used in the 'fight' to oppose the ban. Most of the time when I mentioned the changes in this thread regarding the 50%reduction of dogs being bred, the rules regarding the transparency regarding the fate of the dogs was being used as an example of the fact that the industry could change, but as WM says achieving this in only 12 mths is not fast enough for the general public.

The reforms I mentioned that had been taken off the table were only proposed reforms not actual reforms, pity they weren't made to uphold them before Baird changed his mind.

My experience with the industry has been overwhelmingly negative

I do understand this and while I also have had similar experiences to those that you have mentioned I also have friends at this moment who have as many dogs in their kennels waiting to go into GAP as you mentioned that you have rescued in 10 yrs. Some of them have been there over 12 mths and the 4 they have kept pets, I have shared a couch with and they have done this for many years, it's these people who have a passion for their hobby but above all a love of dogs that I feel for and my friends aren't the only ones that I know of.

The purebred breeders are feeling annoyed that the powers that be feel they need to pay for their hobby, this is how my friends feel plus the whole country believes just because they have a hobby that's been ruined, they are scumbags like the participants that everyone hears about and have judged them without knowing them.

Ultimately, remaining silent is condoning the behaviour of those doing the wrong thing. If enough of the good trainers were willing to come forward, name names, be honest about what goes on, maybe the scum could be cleaned away and things could change. But they don't. In doing nothing, they've made a choice. Back when I was stuck running GAP down here (a short, horrible period that I'd rather forget), I was made to sign an agreement stating that I would never say anything to anyone that would bring the sport into disrepute. This included speaking to the media (besides statements approved by them), it also included not reporting things I'd seen to the RSPCA. A similar clause exists under GAR. A rule that basically prohibits anyone from speaking out if it might damage the image of the sport. A lot of the AR nuts like to grasp at some of the much less common issues while right there, in front of their noses, is the industry enforcing corruption and a culture of secrecy, in a way that can be proven without any effort at all. Go figure.

But that assumes that the good trainers even know what they get up to and what they were doing and from what Im hearing thats just not true. Its hardly something that is advertised and chatted about to anyone who they dont trust. You place EVERYONE who wants to own and train greys in the same basket .They are either animal abusers or they are complicent in it without consideration for how many did really know enough to be able to report it. The second part of your post is about self management and self policing which is always open to corruption and bias and why Vicdogs would be better to advocate for reasonable conditions for everyone who wants to breed dogs rather than sit back and help stick it to everyone else and bathe in the glow that their exemptions won't be removed and they don't become just like the riff raff who choose not to be their members. It attracts dead beats who only join for the exemptions and sets them up for failure sooner rather than later and always makes them a shinier target and open to accusations of corruption,secrecy and bias for AR loonies. If you are going to expect enforcement you have to have a third party arms length party that can accept complaints and have nothing to gain by hushing things up and that includes the RSPCA.

In my experience, many are like teenage girls in that they like to gossip. One person falls out with another, they have a good bitch to anyone who'll listen. There are cliques and certain people go in and out of fashion. In small states like Tasmania, everyone knows everyone elses' business. In places like NSW, I suppose it'd be more of a regional thing, not that it makes a great deal of difference. You're also assuming that those doing the wrong thing are actually going to some sort of effort to hide it and again, from my experience, that's not really true. I've had trainers admit to me that baiting happened on their property (not by them, of course, but a mysterious "someone"). I know of trainers who go through huge numbers of dogs and it's no secret. Then there are the things that happen that aren't against any rule but the public would likely not be comfortable with- dogs being destroyed at the track because of relatively minor injuries (in terms of their health) that are likely to mean they'll never race successfully again. People breeding several litters out of one bitch in the hopes of getting that elusive big winner, etc, etc.

Maybe a few very sheltered trainers could claim ignorance of what goes on but they'd be a tiny minority. What remains and those who do the wrong thing and those who watch the wrong thing happen. This is not saying they are the same- but those who stand by and do nothing cannot complain when the sport does eventually get taken away from them.

Regarding the second part of my post, you could not be more incorrect. In no way was I suggesting self management because that is what is already in place and already very obviously failing. What I was saying was that participants need to take some responsibility, instead of claiming that because it was not them, they shouldn't have to worry about it. This is like witnessing a murder and instead of calling the police, shrugging your shoulders and saying, "Well, I didn't murder anyone so it's not my business and not my problem." It seems obvious to me that if the industry is under threat because of a systemic issue, then all parties concerned should be looking at how to solve the problem. Instead, they're just trying to sweep it back under the rug.

I knew you were not suggesting self management and I knew you were saying exactly the opposite and I was agreeing with you. I'm sorry but I refuse to accept that every person who was not doing the wrong thing is responsible for what was going on with others.I will not accept that everyone in a group should be judged by the actions of a few. If its more than a feww then where are they and why havent they been charged in huge numbers? I also refuse to accept that this new thing we seem to be calling the community and changing public opinion is about what the vast majority of people think and feel and not a noisy minority who have made it difficult for anyone who doesn't agree to say so in fear of not being politically correct and they will be beaten up and judged to be a bad person because they happen to have a different opinion.

its like the emperors new clothes.

admire them or be seen to be a fool.

even though you know he is naked. or in the case of punish the innocent because they didnt dob in the guilty .

who cares they didn't know who were guilty.

same scene, just different angle

[Steve]

Maddy I just don't believe that its possible to know how many if any, knew that didn't report them . If we are talking NSW you don't know how many DID report them.Im just not happy marking everyone in any group with the assumption they are all guilty of animal cruelty or of covering it up.

Edited November 11, 2016 by Steve

[Steve]

Steve, it's not that those not involved in the wrong-doing are doing the wrong thing just by being trainers, it's that the vast majority of aware of the issues and refuse to speak up. If an ANKC breeder knew of another ANKC breeder who did something like.. routinely drowned unwanted puppies or who lied on breeding registration papers (used a different sire, etc) but that person did not report it, would you not agree that the person shares some amount of guilt by allowing it to continue?

Maddy if you are so sure that some know that some others are drowning puppies ,how do you think they know this and how many breeders that you know drown puppies have you reported? You cant just rock up and say I think they are routinely drowning puppies and its not something that a breeder brags about. You can say that s not that sire and its easily proven via DNA so if you know its happened then have you reported it ?.How do you know someone else is aware of it or that its not just gossip? If you know these things and dont report them then why are you less guilty of someone else who you think may know something .Why would a greyhound breeder drown puppies?

[Steve]

There is nothing wrong with breeding several liters out of one bitch in the hope of getting anything as long as the dog is in good health.

[asal]

There is nothing wrong with breeding several liters out of one bitch in the hope of getting anything as long as the dog is in good health.

Try telling that to the fur people brigade, I still remember the woman who demanded of me, how can you do that to your fur child, would you sell your own daughters babies?

This is the mentality of the AR trained.

[m-j]

Steve, it's not that those not involved in the wrong-doing are doing the wrong thing just by being trainers, it's that the vast majority of aware of the issues and refuse to speak up. If an ANKC breeder knew of another ANKC breeder who did something like.. routinely drowned unwanted puppies or who lied on breeding registration papers (used a different sire, etc) but that person did not report it, would you not agree that the person shares some amount of guilt by allowing it to continue?

Maddy if you are so sure that some know that some others are drowning puppies ,how do you think they know this and how many breeders that you know drown puppies have you reported? You cant just rock up and say I think they are routinely drowning puppies and its not something that a breeder brags about. You can say that s not that sire and its easily proven via DNA so if you know its happened then have you reported it ?.How do you know someone else is aware of it or that its not just gossip? If you know these things and dont report them then why are you less guilty of someone else who you think may know something .Why would a greyhound breeder drown puppies?

I imagine this would be highly unlikely for 2 reasons that I can think of, the first being they cost too much to get on the ground, they would rather sell and recoup some of their costs than waste money and the second they wouldn't risk drowning a good dog.

[Steve]

Steve, it's not that those not involved in the wrong-doing are doing the wrong thing just by being trainers, it's that the vast majority of aware of the issues and refuse to speak up. If an ANKC breeder knew of another ANKC breeder who did something like.. routinely drowned unwanted puppies or who lied on breeding registration papers (used a different sire, etc) but that person did not report it, would you not agree that the person shares some amount of guilt by allowing it to continue?

Maddy if you are so sure that some know that some others are drowning puppies ,how do you think they know this and how many breeders that you know drown puppies have you reported? You cant just rock up and say I think they are routinely drowning puppies and its not something that a breeder brags about. You can say that s not that sire and its easily proven via DNA so if you know its happened then have you reported it ?.How do you know someone else is aware of it or that its not just gossip? If you know these things and dont report them then why are you less guilty of someone else who you think may know something .Why would a greyhound breeder drown puppies?

I imagine this would be highly unlikely for 2 reasons that I can think of, the first being they cost too much to get on the ground, they would rather sell and recoup some of their costs than waste money and the second they wouldn't risk drowning a good dog.

Yep.

[HazyWal]

Steve, it's not that those not involved in the wrong-doing are doing the wrong thing just by being trainers, it's that the vast majority of aware of the issues and refuse to speak up. If an ANKC breeder knew of another ANKC breeder who did something like.. routinely drowned unwanted puppies or who lied on breeding registration papers (used a different sire, etc) but that person did not report it, would you not agree that the person shares some amount of guilt by allowing it to continue?

Maddy if you are so sure that some know that some others are drowning puppies ,how do you think they know this and how many breeders that you know drown puppies have you reported? You cant just rock up and say I think they are routinely drowning puppies and its not something that a breeder brags about. You can say that s not that sire and its easily proven via DNA so if you know its happened then have you reported it ?.How do you know someone else is aware of it or that its not just gossip? If you know these things and dont report them then why are you less guilty of someone else who you think may know something .Why would a greyhound breeder drown puppies?

I imagine this would be highly unlikely for 2 reasons that I can think of, the first being they cost too much to get on the ground, they would rather sell and recoup some of their costs than waste money and the second they wouldn't risk drowning a good dog.

Yep.

I don't think she's talking about greyhound puppies, I think she's using an example of if ANKC breeders did something dodgy :/

Well that's how I read it.

[m-j]

Steve, it's not that those not involved in the wrong-doing are doing the wrong thing just by being trainers, it's that the vast majority of aware of the issues and refuse to speak up. If an ANKC breeder knew of another ANKC breeder who did something like.. routinely drowned unwanted puppies or who lied on breeding registration papers (used a different sire, etc) but that person did not report it, would you not agree that the person shares some amount of guilt by allowing it to continue?

Maddy if you are so sure that some know that some others are drowning puppies ,how do you think they know this and how many breeders that you know drown puppies have you reported? You cant just rock up and say I think they are routinely drowning puppies and its not something that a breeder brags about. You can say that s not that sire and its easily proven via DNA so if you know its happened then have you reported it ?.How do you know someone else is aware of it or that its not just gossip? If you know these things and dont report them then why are you less guilty of someone else who you think may know something .Why would a greyhound breeder drown puppies?

I imagine this would be highly unlikely for 2 reasons that I can think of, the first being they cost too much to get on the ground, they would rather sell and recoup some of their costs than waste money and the second they wouldn't risk drowning a good dog.

Yep.

I don't think she's talking about greyhound puppies, I think she's using an example of if ANKC breeders did something dodgy :/

Well that's how I read it.

True, I thought it was being used as an analogy, sorry Maddie my misunderstanding, if that is the case.

[Steve]

Well I assumed Maddy meant that grey trainers drown puppies and what would I do if I knew ANKC breeders did it .Thats because of this that was said in an earlier post 30% PTS .

Maddy, on 10 November 2016 - 12:08 PM, said:

You're making assumptions there. I understand perfectly well why the industry does what it does. There is no great mystery to it. Desperately trying to pretend that those of us who feel that the current industry needs to be completely dismantled are somehow ignorant of the causes or possible fixes of the issue is almost as absurd as the arguments that equate greyhound trainers with refugees. If you think people who use small animals to bait dogs, or people who will euthanase 30% of a litter without a second thought, are deserving of even more chances to continue as they are, then I think we'll have to agree to disagree on what is/isn't acceptable for the welfare of the dogs.

Way to represent ANKC breeders, btw- as essentially supportive of an industry that is rife with massive welfare issues, just to protect their own arses. Nice work.