Nsw To Ban Greyhound Racing From July 2017

[HazyWal]

For anyone interested in the flaws in the report being explained by someone with many years of experience in greyhounds, Dr Liz Brown who was the vet that spoke up and exposed the three vets in the report as not having the credentials they claimed to have, is explaining key points each day on her FB page Northern Rivers Vet Clinic. If you can get past the "parasite" and "you scum dog killer" posts from the anti's which she deletes when she has the time, you can find some interesting discussions.

https://web.facebook.com/Northernriversvetservicecasino/

[The Spotted Devil]

So how did that figure of 13,000-17,000 make its way into a highly confidential written report that, in turn, was released to the Commission? It wasn't a slip of the tongue, off the cuff number released at a press conference. It's either a lie or incompetence.

[The Spotted Devil]

For anyone interested in the flaws in the report being explained by someone with many years of experience in greyhounds, Dr Liz Brown who was the vet that spoke up and exposed the three vets in the report as not having the credentials they claimed to have, is explaining key points each day on her FB page Northern Rivers Vet Clinic. If you can get past the "parasite" and "you scum dog killer" posts from the anti's which she deletes when she has the time, you can find some interesting discussions.

https://web.facebook.com/Northernriversvetservicecasino/

Geez! Gutsy! Thanks for the link - I will have a scan whilst trying to avoid the nutters...

[The Spotted Devil]

I can see the basis for some of her comments but unfortunately GRNSW have themselves to blame - they provided late, incomplete and unreliable stats. By their own admission I might add.

[mystify]

From Volume 2:

GA estimated that:

• 7,000 greyhounds a year did not make it to the track (40% of all greyhounds whelped);

• the industry sponsored Greyhounds As Pets (“GAP”) program rehomed around 6% of all pre- raced and retired greyhounds; and

• the industry was responsible for the deaths of anywhere between 13,000 and 17,000 healthy greyhounds a year.

Subject to the qualifications below, these figures suggest that between approximately 74% and 97% of the industry’s greyhounds are destroyed at some point at or before the age of approximately 4.5 years (at birth, prior to naming, after naming or upon retirement from racing).

(Report goes on to list qualifications and a detailed response to each - read it here: http://www.greyhoundracinginquiry.justice.nsw.gov.au/Documents/Report-SCI-Greyhound-Racing-Industry-NSW-Volume-2.pdf )

GA later retracted their findings as it was found to be misleading and not based on actual figures. It was found that they made incorrect calculations when they did not have the full figure of actual live greyhounds that never went to GAP nor were reported deceased. The figure was later changed to a lower percentage of deaths per year, I can't remember what it was but it was approx 10% on average per year that didn't survive including those pups in a litter that died of diseases, illnesses, killed by their dams, etc

Based on industry breeding figures, it's impossible to kill 17000 dogs in a single year. On average we need over 10,000 to race, 3000 to maintain those numbers via breeding (including sires), and the remaining 4000 would be made in GAP and private re-homing, with the exception of the now known "wastage" rate of 6.9%. Also keep in mind that breeding numbers are down by 46%, so your numbers are grossly outdated and false. See Greyhounds Australasia for confirmation. http://www.galtd.org.au/industry/australasian-statistics

Injury rates are very low when you consider we have around 350,000 starters every year. So based on the public perception of 200 injuries every week, means we have an injury rate of 2.97%. But just so you know, regulators around the nation are working to bring those already impressive numbers down even further. And it's worth noting those figures include minor injuries, including minor cuts or abrasions and minor muscle strains. Visit here for more details: http://www.racingtoarespectedfuture.com.au/

Living conditions are very strict. In Victoria alone, they are bound by a government code of practice, complete with standards of living. These standards are the highest in the world, and the dogs are better cared for than most pets. In fact when you consider who cares for their dogs better, you only have to look at the rate pet dogs are going into RSPCA shelters. And only 70% make it out alive, compared to greyhound racing 93.1% that make it from the whelping box to the couch. Visit here for more details: http://agriculture.vic.gov.au/pe…/domestic-animal-businesses

Don't quote BS RSPCA stats. If you want to talk about euth rates nationally they are freely available. 15% for dogs. I'm not pro-RSPCA nor am I anti-Greyhound Racing. I'm interested in accountability and facts. They're not MY numbers by the way. I'm quoting from Vol 2 of the Commision's report. GA's own highly confidential report submitted to the board. GA have publicly stated 58% euth rate (radio interview ABC) following the release of the report.

I am very against RSPCA since they changed their policies from being concerned about welfare 10 years ago to only care about politics, this is where most of their donations go to, to politics instead of to shelters to help feed and house pet dogs and cats. they have a 93% euth rate killing cats and almost as high euth rate for killing every dog that comes into their shelter. Disgraceful. My money will never go to RSPCA, they are Australia's worst mass murderer of pets. It's a shame they became so focused on politics and aggressive police stance rather than stick to looking after dogs and educating the public to be responsible pet owners, like they used to be 10 years ago before they changed.

Which is why I'm absolutely horrified (along with 99% of greyhound racing industry) when I heard that GRNSW had allied itself with RSPCA to help take in unwanted greyhounds for their GAP shelter. This is the worse thing ever to happen to these poor greyhounds.. they won't stand a chance being rehomed now. Did you see the CEO of RSPCA's video online where he said he had to put down nearly all greyhounds that come into RSPCA's shelters because according to their shelter assistants (most of whom are not knowledgable about dog breeds and had no training at all to assess a dog's suitablity to be rehomed) greyhounds are a vicious breed that cannot be re trained. Omg.

Oh and for further clarification with a more accurate figure for the racing industry: (it's pdf so you may have to download it) this link sums it up excellently;

http://www.racingtoarespectedfuture.com.au/app/uploads/2016/08/31.7.16-NSW-Greyhound-Racing-Industry-Alliance-Key-Facts-1.pdf

[Sheridan]

So how did that figure of 13,000-17,000 make its way into a highly confidential written report that, in turn, was released to the Commission? It wasn't a slip of the tongue, off the cuff number released at a press conference. It's either a lie or incompetence.

Given how things have gone so far, I'm going with the latter.

[The Spotted Devil]

mystify, I appreciate you feel strongly about this but every time you peddle bullshit stats (eg RSPCA kill rates which, I assure you are not even close to 93% for dogs) or the state of corruption of the NSW government it's very easy to disregard the rest of your argument. The same goes for the Greyhound industry at large. Some of the complaints about the Commission of Inquiry are plainly wrong - I wonder if anyone has actually READ the report in its entirety - at least Vol 2 - instead of cherry picking apparent lies. When you read it carefully there is explanation AND appropriate referencing. The quote about the breeder who drowned puppies at birth was a classic - appropriately referenced in the report, no claim was EVER made that this person was a witness and yet there was an absolute meal made out of it.

As an onlooker I read a newspaper article - one guy says "there's no money in Greyhounds" the next guy says "what am I going to do with this million dollar purpose built property?" another guy says "they're our pets, they live better than us" and the next guy says "the government has blood on their hands when the dogs get sent overseas or are all killed."

Edited August 14, 2016 by The Spotted Devil

[The Spotted Devil]

So how did that figure of 13,000-17,000 make its way into a highly confidential written report that, in turn, was released to the Commission? It wasn't a slip of the tongue, off the cuff number released at a press conference. It's either a lie or incompetence.

Given how things have gone so far, I'm going with the latter.

Quite likely! But that figure was carefully calculated by GA themselves and it wasn't until it reached the Inquiry that they tried to withdraw it. The Inquiry thought their reasons for withdrawing it and the timing somewhat suspicious.

[mystify]

I don't normally react quickly in these debates but this is such a contentious issue with the industry's life at stake so I hope I can be forgiven for my emotive posts, even though I am no longer involved with racing greyhounds and the ban doesn't affect me, but I feel so badly for my many friends in the sport that I will fight the ruling to the last of my breath for their sake and for the greyhounds' sake.

However, I've already stated my points and references to figures and stats, so will leave the debate :-) besides which, I've got an interest in showing greyhounds in the future so I don't want to get anybody upset :-) I have a friend who has show bred greyhounds and whippets and I find it fascinating to watch them in action in photos/videos!

I also love border collies, I wonder if people show them as I haven't heard much about it?

[The Spotted Devil]

Emotion is fine. I totally get that. Incorrect information does your cause no justice and distracts from your argument. Your RSPCA stats are plucked off social media (I've seen the same numbers thrown about elsewhere) and are just plain wrong.

[melzawelza]

Not only are the RSPCA stats wrong, but the assertion that the pet owning public are abandoning and killing their dogs at anywhere near the rate of racing greyhound owners/trainers is bulldust too. NSW pound reporting tells us that around 6% of the estimated pet population enter our pounds every year and only about 2% actually stay there. Of that 2% a fair chunk of the dogs are being rehomed and smaller but not insignificant amount of cats. Something around 98% of pet owners prevent their animals needing new homes via the pound every year. That's pretty damn good.

You won't get me arguing that the RSPCA (particularly NSW) is seriously underperforming and needs to be pulled out of the dark ages, but quoting completely wrong stats doesn't help that argument. Also, diversion tactics ("they kill dogs too! stop focusing on us!") is not a great look.

Edited August 14, 2016 by melzawelza

[m-j]

Well the government has signed sealed and delivered their decision, we really will never know if the industry is capable of reform or not as they aren't being given a chance to prove it.

I think they had a good go at it though. Imagine if pet owners reduced the number of dogs being bred by 46%, there would be very little need for pounds, rescue organisations etc.

[HazyWal]

So how did that figure of 13,000-17,000 make its way into a highly confidential written report that, in turn, was released to the Commission? It wasn't a slip of the tongue, off the cuff number released at a press conference. It's either a lie or incompetence.

How did a testimony from some bloke in the US from 2005, which clearly had nothing to do with NSW let alone Australia make its way into the report and yes...incompetence from GRNSW for sure. This article is interesting, why was Newson appointed? His appointment was dodgy and his hasty departure even dodgier and what was with the middle finger he flipped at those in the industry via social media, from behind the safety of the back door he snuck out of? Something about the whole thing smells like the skip bin behind my local fish and chip shop and it all points to one person and that prime 10 acres that Wenty Park sits on.

http://www.australianracinggreyhound.com/australian-greyhound-racing/new-south-wales-greyhound-racing/opinion-the-hardest-part-about-greyhound-racing-ban-in-nsw/79809

[The Spotted Devil]

So how did that figure of 13,000-17,000 make its way into a highly confidential written report that, in turn, was released to the Commission? It wasn't a slip of the tongue, off the cuff number released at a press conference. It's either a lie or incompetence.

How did a testimony from some bloke in the US from 2005, which clearly had nothing to do with NSW let alone Australia make its way into the report and yes...incompetence from GRNSW for sure. This article is interesting, why was Newson appointed? His appointment was dodgy and his hasty departure even dodgier and what was with the middle finger he flipped at those in the industry via social media, from behind the safety of the back door he snuck out of? Something about the whole thing smells like the skip bin behind my local fish and chip shop and it all points to one person and that prime 10 acres that Wenty Park sits on.

http://www.australianracinggreyhound.com/australian-greyhound-racing/new-south-wales-greyhound-racing/opinion-the-hardest-part-about-greyhound-racing-ban-in-nsw/79809

HW - I haven't followed the link yet but the statement by the US bloke was NEVER purported to be testimony. It was a clear reference to another report. You can't have an organisation as important as GA put forward written reports with numbers and suddenly withdraw them without raising some sort of suspicion. GRNSW had every opportunity to provide data to the commission - again and again the information was incomplete. They don't even list litter sizes - numbers of Greys are based on THEIR estimate of 6.3 per litter. That wasn't the Commission's estimate.

ETA: Completely get the perspective in the link. Can understand the industry being pi$$ed off at their representatives. But that's the first time I've heard that side of it and I have been following this with great interest. That's where the energy should be focussed - not attacking the RSPCA and Commissioner and the general public - just looks like sour grapes.

Edited August 14, 2016 by The Spotted Devil

[Lhok]

mystify, I appreciate you feel strongly about this but every time you peddle bullshit stats (eg RSPCA kill rates which, I assure you are not even close to 93% for dogs) or the state of corruption of the NSW government it's very easy to disregard the rest of your argument. The same goes for the Greyhound industry at large. Some of the complaints about the Commission of Inquiry are plainly wrong - I wonder if anyone has actually READ the report in its entirety - at least Vol 2 - instead of cherry picking apparent lies. When you read it carefully there is explanation AND appropriate referencing. The quote about the breeder who drowned puppies at birth was a classic - appropriately referenced in the report, no claim was EVER made that this person was a witness and yet there was an absolute meal made out of it.

As an onlooker I read a newspaper article - one guy says "there's no money in Greyhounds" the next guy says "what am I going to do with this million dollar purpose built property?" another guy says "they're our pets, they live better than us" and the next guy says "the government has blood on their hands when the dogs get sent overseas or are all killed."

All valid points of view from where ever those particular people stand within the industry. Not everyone will have the exact same outlook on it all.

--Lhok

[The Spotted Devil]

mystify, I appreciate you feel strongly about this but every time you peddle bullshit stats (eg RSPCA kill rates which, I assure you are not even close to 93% for dogs) or the state of corruption of the NSW government it's very easy to disregard the rest of your argument. The same goes for the Greyhound industry at large. Some of the complaints about the Commission of Inquiry are plainly wrong - I wonder if anyone has actually READ the report in its entirety - at least Vol 2 - instead of cherry picking apparent lies. When you read it carefully there is explanation AND appropriate referencing. The quote about the breeder who drowned puppies at birth was a classic - appropriately referenced in the report, no claim was EVER made that this person was a witness and yet there was an absolute meal made out of it.

As an onlooker I read a newspaper article - one guy says "there's no money in Greyhounds" the next guy says "what am I going to do with this million dollar purpose built property?" another guy says "they're our pets, they live better than us" and the next guy says "the government has blood on their hands when the dogs get sent overseas or are all killed."

All valid points of view from where ever those particular people stand within the industry. Not everyone will have the exact same outlook on it all.

--Lhok

Of course and I agree - but it makes it much more difficult for the general public to understand. There needs to be a louder "voice" talking absolute truths instead of attacking and blaming others. I'm just trying to point out the perceptions of the general public. Unfortunately perceptions are everything.

[HazyWal]

So how did that figure of 13,000-17,000 make its way into a highly confidential written report that, in turn, was released to the Commission? It wasn't a slip of the tongue, off the cuff number released at a press conference. It's either a lie or incompetence.

How did a testimony from some bloke in the US from 2005, which clearly had nothing to do with NSW let alone Australia make its way into the report and yes...incompetence from GRNSW for sure. This article is interesting, why was Newson appointed? His appointment was dodgy and his hasty departure even dodgier and what was with the middle finger he flipped at those in the industry via social media, from behind the safety of the back door he snuck out of? Something about the whole thing smells like the skip bin behind my local fish and chip shop and it all points to one person and that prime 10 acres that Wenty Park sits on.

http://www.australianracinggreyhound.com/australian-greyhound-racing/new-south-wales-greyhound-racing/opinion-the-hardest-part-about-greyhound-racing-ban-in-nsw/79809

HW - I haven't followed the link yet but the statement by the US bloke was NEVER purported to be testimony. It was a clear reference to another report. You can't have an organisation as important as GA put forward written reports with numbers and suddenly withdraw them without raising some sort of suspicion. GRNSW had every opportunity to provide data to the commission - again and again the information was incomplete. They don't even list litter sizes - numbers of Greys are based on THEIR estimate of 6.3 per litter. That wasn't the Commission's estimate.

ETA: Completely get the perspective in the link. Can understand the industry being pi$$ed off at their representatives. But that's the first time I've heard that side of it and I have been following this with great interest. That's where the energy should be focussed - not attacking the RSPCA and Commissioner and the general public - just looks like sour grapes.

Oh I agree GRNSW are as dodgy as, they failed, the industry participants failed, the only winners here are the animal rights groups. It's great that you are interested in the links I've provided and it's great to see members of the general public reading info and saying "hmmm ok yes that's odd" but you are sadly in the minority. Sour grapes is an odd way to put it, good people are set to lose everything they are irate, depressed they are lashing out as anyone would. One trainer I was reading about out west had taken out a loan to update his facilities to the new standards bought in, 12 months ago I might add. He decided to redevelop his whole property, putting in a new bullring, slipping track, full aircon and heating to his kennel facilities spending hundreds of thousands of dollars as he was confident the industry in NSW was moving forward, he had created a state of the art rearing and training facility...nek minute...gone. In debt up to his eyeballs and how is he going to sell it? Who wants it? Every...single...day they are asked by the public "why don't you just keep them, you would if you loved them like you say" when who can afford to keep 30 dogs as pets? They are bred as racing stock it's a racing industry. I mean really, if every breeder of every dog "really loved" their pups they breed no one would own a pet would they?

As you said, that's the first time you've heard that side of it but a majority of the general public will never see it. Mainly because they aren't looking for the other side, are simply not interested or just saw the full page ads the government placed in the Sydney papers and thought "oh that's terrible, yes shut it down" and went and made a sandwich without another thought.

ETA I don't remember talking about the RSPCA :/ maybe I did somewhere but I could care less about the RSPCA.

Edited August 14, 2016 by HazyWal

[The Spotted Devil]

I don't think you did Hazy but I was referring to mystify who did list some crazy stats and there's a lot on social media too - I know people are angry but attacking orgs like RSPCA does nothing to convince those who think racing should be banned. It makes supporters of racing feel better and reinforces the view of the public who think it should be banned. I see it through the eyes of the public because that's part of my job as an animal welfare scientist. It's not only about promoting good welfare but to be seen to do so. It is what it is. Someone asked me how to prevent this happening in livestock and my reply was to be proactive and to be SEEN as being proactive. Don't cover up. Expose the bad eggs. Engage with welfare orgs and research groups. You can do this at an individual and at a community level and at an industry level. You can see the livestock industries that haven't. As part of my job I talk with government, industry, community, research groups and animal welfare orgs. The latter are more receptive than people give them credit for WHEN you are open and honest.

Thanks for your input Hazy - really appreciate your perspective and respectful discussion.

Edited August 14, 2016 by The Spotted Devil

[HazyWal]

Well the government has signed sealed and delivered their decision, we really will never know if the industry is capable of reform or not as they aren't being given a chance to prove it.

I think they had a good go at it though. Imagine if pet owners reduced the number of dogs being bred by 46%, there would be very little need for pounds, rescue organisations etc.

Yes I have no doubt it will be passed when it goes through the lower house, yet another dodgy move by Baird but anyhoo. I also have no doubt that the industry WILL win in court but the problem there is how long will it take? Years I suspect and by that time the livelihoods of many will be long gone. Pet food distributors closed down and bankrupt, people with mortgages crushed and then there's the reality of suicides. I hope those that are feeling like they can't go on read Baird's link to Lifeline on the end of his facebook post, you know, so they know where to ring

[HazyWal]

I don't think you did Hazy but I was referring to mystify who did list some crazy stats and there's a lot on social media too - I know people are angry but attacking orgs like RSPCA does nothing to convince those who think racing should be banned. It makes supporters of racing feel better and reinforces the view of the public who think it should be banned. I see it through the eyes of the public because that's part of my job as an animal welfare scientist. It's not only about promoting good welfare but to be seen to do so. It is what it is. Someone asked me how to prevent this happening in livestock and my reply was to be proactive and to be SEEN as being proactive. Don't cover up. Expose the bad eggs. Engage with welfare orgs and research groups. You can do this at an individual and at a community level and at an industry level. You can see the livestock industries that haven't. As part of my job I talk with government, industry, community, research groups and animal welfare orgs. The latter are more receptive than people give them credit for WHEN you are open and honest.

Thanks for your input Hazy - really appreciate your perspective and respectful discussion.

No worries TSD thanks for listening.

Yes I agree that they must be seen to be being proactive, I think that's where the good industry participants are frustrated because as stated many times breeding had halved in the last 12 months and as the overbreeding of greyhounds has always been my personal issue with the industry I saw that as a major step forward. Unfortunately, like you said, the general public didn't know that, how could they? GRNSW didn't exactly promote that fact did they so how the hell would anyone outside the industry know? That's where all states should take a leaf out of Greyhound Racing Victoria's book and SHOW the high welfare standards that are set here. I have personally rung GRV and enquired about various things and they couldn't be more helpful. Ring GRNSW and I doubt they even have an answering machine