Nsw To Ban Greyhound Racing From July 2017

[Sheridan]

This will never be addressed until all breeders stop being defensive and stop being victims and open their eyes to the problems they have created.

Only then can the needed changes happen.

The breeders who are trying to change are often villified for what they are doing by their peers.

The ankc is a competative system and until breeders stop this competition between themselves ar will win.

What problems have sighthound breeders created? Right now its damn wise to be defensive. Their dogs are in the cross hairs of the RSPCA.

I didnt say all breeders of all breeds. We all know the problem brreeds and we all need to acknowledge the problems.

Nothing can be fixed is the problems are not acknowledged.

Eta the public see defensiveness as if there is something being hidden from them . there is a high degree of distrust that they have

You said 'breeders' without any qualification of what you meant. If you meant breeders doing the wrong thing or not taking into account health issues then you should have said so. Instead by simply writing 'breeders' you paint everyone with the same brush. I took it that way, HW took it that way and anyone reading without background would take it that way.

[asal]

This will never be addressed until all breeders stop being defensive and stop being victims and open their eyes to the problems they have created.

Only then can the needed changes happen.

The breeders who are trying to change are often villified for what they are doing by their peers.

The ankc is a competative system and until breeders stop this competition between themselves ar will win.

What problems have sighthound breeders created? Right now its damn wise to be defensive. Their dogs are in the cross hairs .

everything is in the crosshairs, all your left to argue is in which order are they lined up for target.

had a dream last night, quite odd but maybe time will see it to be true, regardless of the order all domesticated species are marked for elimination, people are just a bit slow to realise that, the name today should be Royal Society for the Elimination of Domesticated Breeds. or RSEDB or?

Perhaps, Royal Society for the Elimination of Domesticated Species may be more appropriate, does RSEDS have a better, more realistic ring to it?

Of course, breeders, such as those who sold litters to McDougall for that pet shop in Hawaii wouldn't have had anything to do with the bad PR problem.

many breeders sold to the company who was exporting to McDougal the Hawaii Pet shop, I saw many of the litters sold and they were stunning puppies, one of the conditions was they had to be on Main Register and I was so tempted to buy a ticket and fly there to buy some of the puppies I saw. Many were from breeders who would never sell on main register in Australia.

scotched the idea when I found how complicated it would be to reimport but it was tempting to daydream, international pedigrees denied to the rest of australia.

[Steve]

I have. In many different ways.

If you can't be bothered to understand the science for yourself, I guess it can't touch you. Only 'A.R' can.

So 'round and 'round we go. Nah, Its covered. I''m not doing this again.

If you can't be bothered to explain your point in language people understand then we have a problem don't we.

It isn't the science that's the problem but your inability or unwillingness to explain it without the gibberish.

Most concepts can be explained in lay men's terms. How is this different?

AR don't give a toss about the science. They care about the outcome that the science may be supporting.

They care about their anti-dog agenda. They don't care if science supports it or not. They only care if they get their way.

Yep

[Sheridan]

This will never be addressed until all breeders stop being defensive and stop being victims and open their eyes to the problems they have created.

Only then can the needed changes happen.

The breeders who are trying to change are often villified for what they are doing by their peers.

The ankc is a competative system and until breeders stop this competition between themselves ar will win.

What problems have sighthound breeders created? Right now its damn wise to be defensive. Their dogs are in the cross hairs .

everything is in the crosshairs, all your left to argue is in which order are they lined up for target.

had a dream last night, quite odd but maybe time will see it to be true, regardless of the order all domesticated species are marked for elimination, people are just a bit slow to realise that, the name today should be Royal Society for the Elimination of Domesticated Breeds. or RSEDB or?

Perhaps, Royal Society for the Elimination of Domesticated Species may be more appropriate, does RSEDS have a better, more realistic ring to it?

Of course, breeders, such as those who sold litters to McDougall for that pet shop in Hawaii wouldn't have had anything to do with the bad PR problem.

many breeders sold to the company who was exporting to McDougal the Hawaii Pet shop, I saw many of the litters sold and they were stunning puppies, one of the conditions was they had to be on Main Register and I was so tempted to buy a ticket and fly there to buy some of the puppies I saw. Many were from breeders who would never sell on main register in Australia.

scotched the idea when I found how complicated it would be to reimport but it was tempting to daydream, international pedigrees denied to the rest of australia.

Perhaps your memory is failing you, asal, because you've previously said you sold to McDougal.

[Pjrt]

I confess sometimes I wish moosmums posts were in plainer language, but I absolutely love them, because they usually force me to think, hard.

I don't confess to completely understand, but what I take from it is. The environment is everything apart from the self. If the self can't, won't, don't, refuse to adapt to the changing environment outside of themselves, then the environment will force it's hand. History tells us plain and clear what happens to those who don't adapt to their environment. The self cannot expect the environment to adapt to it ......the self must adapt to the environment. Whether that means I put more clothes on so I am comfortable sitting in my cold lounge room, or pedigree dog breeders adapting to changing purpose and expectations.

Edited July 17, 2016 by Gruf

[Steve]

I confess sometimes I wish moosmums posts were in plainer language, but I absolutely love them, because they usually force me to think, hard.

I don't confess to completely understand, but what I take from it is. The environment is everything apart from the self. If the self can't, won't, don't, refuse to adapt the changing environment outside of themselves, then the environment will force it's hand. History tells us plain and clear what happens to those who don't adapt to their environment. The self cannot expect the environment to adapt to it the self must adapt to the environment. Whether that means I put more clothes on so I am comfortable sitting in my cold lounge room, or pedigree dog breeders adapting to changing purpose and expectations.

Yes I got all that and that's pretty much what I'm advocating but seems there is much that looses me and it all seems to be centred around the pedigrees.

[The Spotted Devil]

RSPCA stats are publicly available. RSPCA euth'd just under 15% of dogs received in 2014/15. Nationally. Greyhound Australasia estimates that 58% of Greyhounds are euth'd. GRNSW informed the commission that the figure of 3000 was largely speculative and confidence on its accuracy was low (all from Volume 2 of the report).

[asal]

This will never be addressed until all breeders stop being defensive and stop being victims and open their eyes to the problems they have created.

Only then can the needed changes happen.

The breeders who are trying to change are often villified for what they are doing by their peers.

The ankc is a competative system and until breeders stop this competition between themselves ar will win.

What problems have sighthound breeders created? Right now its damn wise to be defensive. Their dogs are in the cross hairs .

everything is in the crosshairs, all your left to argue is in which order are they lined up for target.

had a dream last night, quite odd but maybe time will see it to be true, regardless of the order all domesticated species are marked for elimination, people are just a bit slow to realise that, the name today should be Royal Society for the Elimination of Domesticated Breeds. or RSEDB or?

Perhaps, Royal Society for the Elimination of Domesticated Species may be more appropriate, does RSEDS have a better, more realistic ring to it?

Of course, breeders, such as those who sold litters to McDougall for that pet shop in Hawaii wouldn't have had anything to do with the bad PR problem.

many breeders sold to the company who was exporting to McDougal the Hawaii Pet shop, I saw many of the litters sold and they were stunning puppies, one of the conditions was they had to be on Main Register and I was so tempted to buy a ticket and fly there to buy some of the puppies I saw. Many were from breeders who would never sell on main register in Australia.

scotched the idea when I found how complicated it would be to reimport but it was tempting to daydream, international pedigrees denied to the rest of australia.

Perhaps your memory is failing you, asal, because you've previously said you sold to McDougal.

my mentor was Nancy Gate and I cared for her dogs for many years before her heart began to fail. She was one tough cookie. I still remember the day she rang me and told me I had to come and pick up every dog as her doc wanted her admitted to hospital, so spent an hour catching and packing every one in my car as Nancy directed operations, and listed who was to go to which friend until she came out and which i was to look after, some wanted to eat me alive so I had a few bite marks for my trouble from a couple of the older ones who considered no one but Nancy was allowed to pick them up. Finally all aboard and and delivered Nancy to Emergency, what happened next was a whirlwind, medics came running, carted her off on a stretcher and wondered what on earth happened? Finally learned she was having a heart attack and over half her heart was already dead yet she wouldnt get in my car till I had done as instructed. Amazing lady. No one who wanted to learn was turned away her patience was great as was her humor.

and she retired to live with her daughter, although she couldnt take her dogs with her so I kept some for many years and would report their doings and send photos till she died, she lived years beyond her doctors expectations and she sold puppies to them and I delivered them, it was fascinating to see the puppies there from other breeders and a real surprise to spot the prefixes involved, some very high profile kennels. Sad i cant name any living breeder who sent any since they would be as despised as you do me.

One pup in particular raised some really interesting questions for the ANKC. I notice it still says that two longcoat chihuahua's cannot produce a smoothcoat pup. One litter with both parents longocat, the sire being a very well known dog, Champion Gates Adam, had a stunning smoothcoat bitch puppy in it. She had decided to sell some of the litter to McDougals and I took her and the puppies,a chap in the office took one look at the smoothcoat girl and wanted her on the spot for Hawaii, but Nancy explained it could not be registered. He phoned the Office at the Canine council and to our astonishment whoever was on the other end of the phone, told him they would register her. so Nancy sent in the application for registration and off she went to Hawaii. except just as expected she received a letter informing her what? no rego for a smoothcoat from longcoats. the new owner had fit and demanded the parents and the puppy be dna'd to prove parentage. which was done and yes it all came back correct so extremely grudgingly she received her main registration papers.

I took quite a few puppies over the years and they were always extremely nice people and had no hesitation in letting me see where the puppies were quarantined and always sent back photos of the puppies with their new owners and quite often later would receive letter and photos from them as well, some for years. One chap even came to visit when he was in australia for his honeymoon and so wanted to see the parents of his much loved puppy.

Edited July 17, 2016 by asal

[Sheridan]

Is that a roundabout way of saying you were a broker who sold puppies to a broker who sold puppies to a pet shop in Hawaii? So, these dogs were the result of double brokerage? I realise you don't think there's anything wrong with selling to this pet shop but you miss the point. You're part of the image problem. ANKC breeders are supposed to be better than the puppyfarmers and for all your tale of a sweet old lady, there were puppies that ended up in pet shops. And that's outside of the clear breach of the Code of Ethics.

Edited July 17, 2016 by Sheridan

[asal]

Is that a roundabout way of saying you were a broker who sold puppies to a broker who sold puppies to a pet shop in Hawaii? So, these dogs were the result of double brokerage? I realise you don't think there's anything wrong with selling to this pet shop but you miss the point. You're part of the image problem. ANKC breeders are supposed to be better than the puppyfarmers and for all your tale of a sweet old lady, there were puppies that ended up in pet shops. And that's outside of the clear breach of the Code of Ethics.

no dipstick. (my brothers favourite term for those he finds frustrating)

Nancy was selling to them long before she became ill and needed me to drive her. I didn't know they existed until I drove through their gate and was introduced that first day I took her

Edited July 18, 2016 by asal

[asal]

As Sheridan gently pointed out I am one of the despised “unethical”. Labled by the likes of Sheridan, not me incidently.

I became tainted for life after becoming a breeder of Cavies as a teen. I saw and wanted a Pure Black Smoothcoat Cavy. They are stunning creatures, shinning blue black in the Aussie sun, happy busy little critters who scream “mee too, mee too” the second they see you with goodies.

Except there was a problem, in the 1950’s and 60’s there were pure breeding black Cavies, only problem was they were in England and import was banned to Australia.

The one I had seen was a fluke from tricolour parents, so with the enthusiasm of youth I decided I would create my own family of true breeding black guinea pigs. With the help of my best friends brother, Glen Roberts a (now) world famous geneticist, who mapped for me what I needed to work towards and the copies of books on their colour inheritance genetics from The Stack at Sydney University. I set about my self appointed task. On the way I met some pretty amazing people, the staff of CSIRO Animal Health. Where else would you find the expertise than the men and women who kept this huge organisation supplied with healthy lab animals to conduct and sustain all the research work done that led the world in so many fields. (until our successive governments continual funding cuts have eventually ground to an almost standstill). I got to meet Hugh Gordon, Alec Lascelles, Jim Tyre, Jennifer MacDiarmid, Ph.D. & Himanshu Brahmbhatt, Ph.D.(justCLICK http://engeneic.com/ to see what these two genius’s have achieved in cancer research, including the first mesothelioma patient in remission. link to relevant article: http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/engeneic-and-asbestos-diseases-research-institute-announce-encouraging-results-from-mesomir-1-phase-1-trial-in-late-stage-mesothelioma-patients-300098861.html) To name just a few.

Jim donated three mainly black cavies from their Castle Hill facility, he and three mates (One of the four became my long patient hubby a decade or so later) went on to design, implement and teach the TAFE ANIMAL CARE COURSE. That is the course all Lab workers undertake as part of their training along with all the RSPCA Special Constables.

I added another 4 seemingly black Cavies from other members of the NSW Cavy Club and the challenge began. It took 6 years and 12 generations before I had entire litters of pure black baby cavies. (Gen had estimated 12 years and 24 generation, so I was lucky)

Along the way I discovered some of my cavy club purchases obviously carried a lethal gene. A percentage of babies would be born with misshapen ears, some with no eyes?

With such a small gene pool to work with, what to do? That is when I learnt why old time stud masters bred father to daughter, mother to son. It was not just to fix traits. It was also a tool to learn what if any deleterious genes they may carry. I did as tasked and soon found which original animals carried the disaster genes. Once i knew which lines might carry it, the next stage was to deliberately keep all females who had produced affected offspring and mate them to any young males I had intended using for the next generation, prior to him siring anything to the females of his generation. Female cavies breeding lives are too short to test breed them to known carrier males to see if they carry the gene. As Glen explained i needed a minimum of 16 from known carrier parent to an unknown carrier status parent to ensure a valid carrier or non carrier status to the unknown. Ideally 36 preferably 100 is the ideal figure but that just wasn’t feasible. So using Glen’s advice test breeding all potential stud males to carrier females eliminated the defective gene in 6 generations. Remember these were the decades before dna testing existed. As well the method, occasional father daughter, mother son mating’s did a full sweep for possible hidden genes. Pretty necessary for an original gene pool of only 7 individuals.

Breeding is a hard game. Plenty of opportunity for tears. It is pretty distressing when the inevitable happens and you get babies which have to be put down because you know they will have no quality of life if left to struggle to survive. The flip side is knowing you are doing all you can to ensure future generations will be free of this.

I remember when The Canine Council, long before it became Dogs NSW, did a survey and discovered to its surprise less than 20% of new members were still members and breeding 5 years after registering their prefix. Something like 80% of their membership were the few who survived the initial traumatic first 5 to 10 years and mainly pensioners.

So many years later when I acquired my first pedigree puppy I came from a totally different background and mind set to most of you here on Dogzonline and the ANKC memberships.

I bought my first puppy from a lady named Phil, she was an unashamed ANKC breeder of family pets, who believe it or not ARE the real job of our dogs, its no accident the manual for breeders is compiled under the COMPANION ANIMALS ACT.

Dogs ARE companion animals, even the working breeds make great companions at days end. The dog show scene is the newcomer to the block, just read up when Dog shows first began for yourself.

So the day I read my first Breed Standard for my new puppy, I spotted a sentence that I found concerning. The words ran something “in the case of two of equal merit, the more diminutive preferred”.

Nancy had long been a family friend before I acquired my first puppy, and I knew she loved showing, so took the new baby to see her. She was horrified at my choice of breeder who I had bought her from, but had to concede she was a nice puppy. I began to go to some shows with Nancy but soon noticed many judges were not bothering with the equal merit part of the standard, simply calling in the smallest in the lineup for the placings. Even in those early days (1978) many breeders considered surgical delivery to be normal. It was pretty obvious why. After acquiring Hillary Harmer’s book The Complete Chihuahua, complete too with photos of her original Chihuahuas from Chile. Including the unforgettably named El Pis.

https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Chihuahua-Encyclopedia-Hilary-Harmar/dp/0668029102

I began to question, what are they doing to the Chihuahua? What is trotting around the showrings in 1978 is not the dogs the Incas had bred vet free, surgery free for thousands of years. The “improved” version wasn’t the self whelping dog of the Inca’s anymore.

Any throwbacks to El Pis and his kennel mates were derided now as the Bambi type.

It didn’t make me popular and I became an embarrassment to Nancy and her friends, but the darling never gave up on me and tried for decades to re-educate me, just as I tried to re-educate her. She never in or line bred, and and rarely kept a bitch or dog for breeding unless it had acquired Ch before its name, but she did begin selecting her bitches for pelvis as wide as the shoulders and checked for width between the pin bones and yes they self whelped beautifully.

To defend me from the puppy farmer label she began to show some of my dogs to their CH certificates as I had lost interest in showing by then.

Remember too this was before Animal Rights began asking similar questions.

The fuel for Pedigree Dogs exposed. Was long in the making and the ANKC breeders had members like me asking awkward questions long before the animal rights groups began collecting the ammunition for that doco. They had decades to listen and act before they were ambushed by the disaster of their own making. The biggest failure of the ANKC’S as I see it was to belittle the question askers instead of working to become proactive in the reduction of breeding and health problems in their respective breeds instead of sticking to the mentality that this is how they are , see how we have improved on the dogs of 40 years ago and ignoring those who questioned the ‘improvements” and now reduced to reactive only to the challenges now being directed at them. As proven by the sudden deletion of that very sentence I had queried so many decades before from the standard after the airing of Pedigree Dogs Exposed.

As a side note, Phil put friendly temperament towards strangers one of the tops on her list, her dogs were unmissable in that department, I agreed with her. People used to be amazed to see such friendly Chihuahua’s when they came to visit me.

Footnote: how successful were my Cavies? Some 15 years later in think 1987/88 not sure the exact year, the Cavy Club could advise you, Sydney Royal hosted two firsts, the First Cavy Exhibition at the Royal and the exhibition of English Imported Show Cavies. So who bred the first Sydney Royal Supreme smoothcoat Cavy? Percy Short with his pure Asal line Black and the Supreme Long Coat , I was thrilled to discover was also a Pure Asal line cavy. Sadly I cannot remember the name of the lady who Bred him but I hope some one can spot this and tell us some day. They were thrilled almost beyond words to have so beaten the English imports with their all aussie blood line cavies. (I dabbled with some of the early long coat lines as an aside to the main mission)

Edited July 18, 2016 by asal

[Sheridan]

Is that a roundabout way of saying you were a broker who sold puppies to a broker who sold puppies to a pet shop in Hawaii? So, these dogs were the result of double brokerage? I realise you don't think there's anything wrong with selling to this pet shop but you miss the point. You're part of the image problem. ANKC breeders are supposed to be better than the puppyfarmers and for all your tale of a sweet old lady, there were puppies that ended up in pet shops. And that's outside of the clear breach of the Code of Ethics.

no dipstick. (my brothers favourite term for those he finds frustrating)

Nancy was selling to them long before she became ill and needed me to drive her. I didn't know they existed until I drove through their gate and was introduced that first day I took her

Asal, you've said previously you sold to McDougall. There was no Nancy in your previous story and again, and with your self-justification below, you are missing the point.

[asal]

Is that a roundabout way of saying you were a broker who sold puppies to a broker who sold puppies to a pet shop in Hawaii? So, these dogs were the result of double brokerage? I realise you don't think there's anything wrong with selling to this pet shop but you miss the point. You're part of the image problem. ANKC breeders are supposed to be better than the puppyfarmers and for all your tale of a sweet old lady, there were puppies that ended up in pet shops. And that's outside of the clear breach of the Code of Ethics.

no dipstick. (my brothers favourite term for those he finds frustrating)

Nancy was selling to them long before she became ill and needed me to drive her. I didn't know they existed until I drove through their gate and was introduced that first day I took her

Asal, you've said previously you sold to McDougall. There was no Nancy in your previous story and again, and with your self-justification below, you are missing the point.

I did not name nancy previously as she was alive and I had no wish to set the hounds on her, I note the baying is still noticable isnt it.

so which is the point I'm missing?

Edited July 18, 2016 by asal

[Sheridan]

Is that a roundabout way of saying you were a broker who sold puppies to a broker who sold puppies to a pet shop in Hawaii? So, these dogs were the result of double brokerage? I realise you don't think there's anything wrong with selling to this pet shop but you miss the point. You're part of the image problem. ANKC breeders are supposed to be better than the puppyfarmers and for all your tale of a sweet old lady, there were puppies that ended up in pet shops. And that's outside of the clear breach of the Code of Ethics.

no dipstick. (my brothers favourite term for those he finds frustrating)

Nancy was selling to them long before she became ill and needed me to drive her. I didn't know they existed until I drove through their gate and was introduced that first day I took her

Asal, you've said previously you sold to McDougall. There was no Nancy in your previous story and again, and with your self-justification below, you are missing the point.

I did not name nancy previously as she was alive and I had no wish to set the hounds on her, I note the baying is still noticable isnt it.

so which is the point I'm missing?

Feel free to read my previous posts.

[Steve]

As Sheridan gently pointed out I am one of the despised "unethical". Labled by the likes of Sheridan, not me incidently.

I became tainted for life after becoming a breeder of Cavies as a teen. I saw and wanted a Pure Black Smoothcoat Cavy. They are stunning creatures, shinning blue black in the Aussie sun, happy busy little critters who scream "mee too, mee too" the second they see you with goodies.

Except there was a problem, in the 1950's and 60's there were pure breeding black Cavies, only problem was they were in England and import was banned to Australia.

The one I had seen was a fluke from tricolour parents, so with the enthusiasm of youth I decided I would create my own family of true breeding black guinea pigs. With the help of my best friends brother, Glen Roberts a (now) world famous geneticist, who mapped for me what I needed to work towards and the copies of books on their colour inheritance genetics from The Stack at Sydney University. I set about my self appointed task. On the way I met some pretty amazing people, the staff of CSIRO Animal Health. Where else would you find the expertise than the men and women who kept this huge organisation supplied with healthy lab animals to conduct and sustain all the research work done that led the world in so many fields. (until our successive governments continual funding cuts have eventually ground to an almost standstill). I got to meet Hugh Gordon, Alec Lascelles, Jim Tyre, Jennifer MacDiarmid, Ph.D. & Himanshu Brahmbhatt, Ph.D.(justCLICK http://engeneic.com/ to see what these two genius's have achieved in cancer research, including the first mesothelioma patient in remission. link to relevant article: http://www.prnewswir...-300098861.html) To name just a few.

Jim donated three mainly black cavies from their Castle Hill facility, he and three mates (One of the four became my long patient hubby a decade or so later) went on to design, implement and teach the TAFE ANIMAL CARE COURSE. That is the course all Lab workers undertake as part of their training along with all the RSPCA Special Constables.

I added another 4 seemingly black Cavies from other members of the NSW Cavy Club and the challenge began. It took 6 years and 12 generations before I had entire litters of pure black baby cavies. (Gen had estimated 12 years and 24 generation, so I was lucky)

Along the way I discovered some of my cavy club purchases obviously carried a lethal gene. A percentage of babies would be born with misshapen ears, some with no eyes?

With such a small gene pool to work with, what to do? That is when I learnt why old time stud masters bred father to daughter, mother to son. It was not just to fix traits. It was also a tool to learn what if any deleterious genes they may carry. I did as tasked and soon found which original animals carried the disaster genes. Once i knew which lines might carry it, the next stage was to deliberately keep all females who had produced affected offspring and mate them to any young males I had intended using for the next generation, prior to him siring anything to the females of his generation. Female cavies breeding lives are too short to test breed them to known carrier males to see if they carry the gene. As Glen explained i needed a minimum of 16 from known carrier parent to an unknown carrier status parent to ensure a valid carrier or non carrier status to the unknown. Ideally 36 preferably 100 is the ideal figure but that just wasn't feasible. So using Glen's advice test breeding all potential stud males to carrier females eliminated the defective gene in 6 generations. Remember these were the decades before dna testing existed. As well the method, occasional father daughter, mother son mating's did a full sweep for possible hidden genes. Pretty necessary for an original gene pool of only 7 individuals.

Breeding is a hard game. Plenty of opportunity for tears. It is pretty distressing when the inevitable happens and you get babies which have to be put down because you know they will have no quality of life if left to struggle to survive. The flip side is knowing you are doing all you can to ensure future generations will be free of this.

I remember when The Canine Council, long before it became Dogs NSW, did a survey and discovered to its surprise less than 20% of new members were still members and breeding 5 years after registering their prefix. Something like 80% of their membership were the few who survived the initial traumatic first 5 to 10 years and mainly pensioners.

So many years later when I acquired my first pedigree puppy I came from a totally different background and mind set to most of you here on Dogzonline and the ANKC memberships.

I bought my first puppy from a lady named Phil, she was an unashamed ANKC breeder of family pets, who believe it or not ARE the real job of our dogs, its no accident the manual for breeders is compiled under the COMPANION ANIMALS ACT.

Dogs ARE companion animals, even the working breeds make great companions at days end. The dog show scene is the newcomer to the block, just read up when Dog shows first began for yourself.

So the day I read my first Breed Standard for my new puppy, I spotted a sentence that I found concerning. The words ran something "in the case of two of equal merit, the more diminutive preferred".

Nancy had long been a family friend before I acquired my first puppy, and I knew she loved showing, so took the new baby to see her. She was horrified at my choice of breeder who I had bought her from, but had to concede she was a nice puppy. I began to go to some shows with Nancy but soon noticed many judges were not bothering with the equal merit part of the standard, simply calling in the smallest in the lineup for the placings. Even in those early days (1978) many breeders considered surgical delivery to be normal. It was pretty obvious why. After acquiring Hillary Harmer's book The Complete Chihuahua, complete too with photos of her original Chihuahuas from Chile. Including the unforgettably named El Pis.

https://www.amazon.c...r/dp/0668029102

I began to question, what are they doing to the Chihuahua? What is trotting around the showrings in 1978 is not the dogs the Incas had bred vet free, surgery free for thousands of years. The "improved" version wasn't the self whelping dog of the Inca's anymore.

Any throwbacks to El Pis and his kennel mates were derided now as the Bambi type.

It didn't make me popular and I became an embarrassment to Nancy and her friends, but the darling never gave up on me and tried for decades to re-educate me, just as I tried to re-educate her. She never in or line bred, and and rarely kept a bitch or dog for breeding unless it had acquired Ch before its name, but she did begin selecting her bitches for pelvis as wide as the shoulders and checked for width between the pin bones and yes they self whelped beautifully.

To defend me from the puppy farmer label she began to show some of my dogs to their CH certificates as I had lost interest in showing by then.

Remember too this was before Animal Rights began asking similar questions.

The fuel for Pedigree Dogs exposed. Was long in the making and the ANKC breeders had members like me asking awkward questions long before the animal rights groups began collecting the ammunition for that doco. They had decades to listen and act before they were ambushed by the disaster of their own making. The biggest failure of the ANKC'S as I see it was to belittle the question askers instead of working to become proactive in the reduction of breeding and health problems in their respective breeds instead of sticking to the mentality that this is how they are , see how we have improved on the dogs of 40 years ago and ignoring those who questioned the 'improvements" and now reduced to reactive only to the challenges now being directed at them. As proven by the sudden deletion of that very sentence I had queried so many decades before from the standard after the airing of Pedigree Dogs Exposed.

As a side note, Phil put friendly temperament towards strangers one of the tops on her list, her dogs were unmissable in that department, I agreed with her. People used to be amazed to see such friendly Chihuahua's when they came to visit me.

Footnote: how successful were my Cavies? Some 15 years later in think 1987/88 not sure the exact year, the Cavy Club could advise you, Sydney Royal hosted two firsts, the First Cavy Exhibition at the Royal and the exhibition of English Imported Show Cavies. So who bred the first Sydney Royal Supreme smoothcoat Cavy? Percy Short with his pure Asal line Black and the Supreme Long Coat , I was thrilled to discover was also a Pure Asal line cavy. Sadly I cannot remember the name of the lady who Bred him but I hope some one can spot this and tell us some day. They were thrilled almost beyond words to have so beaten the English imports with their all aussie blood line cavies. (I dabbled with some of the early long coat lines as an aside to the main mission)

Asal you don't need to justify yourself or why you or anyone sold to Mcdougall back then . Mcdougall advertised a big two page spread in the Canine Journal and a printed notice for Dogs NSW members was circulated telling all of their members how great it would be for them to proceed to sell their puppies to PIAA member Transpet who was an agent for Mcdougall.No one who sold puppies back then to them breached any ethics or regs and some of the biggest names in the business were involved. It was actively encouraged by the canine councils.

That was then this is now and what ever you did or did not do 20 years ago simply isn't something you need to feel you should have to answer for on a public forum especially in a thread about banning greyhounds. Better to ignore the bullies when they start.

Edited July 18, 2016 by Steve

[moosmum]

I confess sometimes I wish moosmums posts were in plainer language, but I absolutely love them, because they usually force me to think, hard.

I don't confess to completely understand, but what I take from it is. The environment is everything apart from the self. If the self can't, won't, don't, refuse to adapt to the changing environment outside of themselves, then the environment will force it's hand. History tells us plain and clear what happens to those who don't adapt to their environment. The self cannot expect the environment to adapt to it ......the self must adapt to the environment. Whether that means I put more clothes on so I am comfortable sitting in my cold lounge room, or pedigree dog breeders adapting to changing purpose and expectations.

Thanks Gruff. I wish I could be plainer, but this is the way I talk. Its not such a problem face to face.

Buy yeah, you have it right. When you create an organization, you are creating an environment with its own purpose.

Thats not usualy a problem, because its still just PART of an environment out of many parts.

The problem is when its a closed or exclusive organization. It sets limits its pupose. Its no longer just another part of the whole. Its distinct from the rest.

Its members are responding to that organized environment alone. The demands from out side are an intrusion on that space. Theres very little give and take of messages to act on. The message its members act on are those set out at its inception. The culture is set, or fixed and not able to quickly adapt or respond to change. Its an environment for its members, but since it 'acts' independently of the larger environment, its also an identity. Or another 'self' but far more influential on the larger environment than you or me on our own because of the sheer numbers of individuals all acting on the same message.

Each in their own way, yes. But still the single environment and the messages its members receive from THAT environment. If its an exclusive org, Its messages must take precedence and its members a fixed single identity.

The purpose( keeping pedigrees) isn't the problem. Thats an identity that serves a purpose. The exclusive nature is.

Because that makes it an environment IN an identity it can't escape. It can't effectively respond to any demands out side of its ' self '. It can't be both a distinct identity and an isolated environment. An environment does not respond. It can only demand.

[Steve]

I confess sometimes I wish moosmums posts were in plainer language, but I absolutely love them, because they usually force me to think, hard.

I don't confess to completely understand, but what I take from it is. The environment is everything apart from the self. If the self can't, won't, don't, refuse to adapt to the changing environment outside of themselves, then the environment will force it's hand. History tells us plain and clear what happens to those who don't adapt to their environment. The self cannot expect the environment to adapt to it ......the self must adapt to the environment. Whether that means I put more clothes on so I am comfortable sitting in my cold lounge room, or pedigree dog breeders adapting to changing purpose and expectations.

Thanks Gruff. I wish I could be plainer, but this is the way I talk. Its not such a problem face to face.

Buy yeah, you have it right. When you create an organization, you are creating an environment with its own purpose.

Thats not usualy a problem, because its still just PART of an environment out of many parts.

The problem is when its a closed or exclusive organization. It sets limits its pupose. Its no longer just another part of the whole. Its distinct from the rest.

Its members are responding to that organized environment alone. The demands from out side are an intrusion on that space. Theres very little give and take of messages to act on. The message its members act on are those set out at its inception. The culture is set, or fixed and not able to quickly adapt or respond to change. Its an environment for its members, but since it 'acts' independently of the larger environment, its also an identity. Or another 'self' but far more influential on the larger environment than you or me on our own because of the sheer numbers of individuals all acting on the same message.

Each in their own way, yes. But still the single environment and the messages its members receive from THAT environment. If its an exclusive org, Its messages must take precedence and its members a fixed single identity.

The purpose( keeping pedigrees) isn't the problem. Thats an identity that serves a purpose. The exclusive nature is.

Because that makes it an environment IN an identity it can't escape. It can't effectively respond to any demands out side of its ' self '. It can't be both a distinct identity and an isolated environment. An environment does not respond. It can only demand.

So what is your solution?

[BarbedWire]

As Sheridan gently pointed out I am one of the despised "unethical". Labled by the likes of Sheridan, not me incidently.

I became tainted for life after becoming a breeder of Cavies as a teen. I saw and wanted a Pure Black Smoothcoat Cavy. They are stunning creatures, shinning blue black in the Aussie sun, happy busy little critters who scream "mee too, mee too" the second they see you with goodies.

Except there was a problem, in the 1950's and 60's there were pure breeding black Cavies, only problem was they were in England and import was banned to Australia.

The one I had seen was a fluke from tricolour parents, so with the enthusiasm of youth I decided I would create my own family of true breeding black guinea pigs. With the help of my best friends brother, Glen Roberts a (now) world famous geneticist, who mapped for me what I needed to work towards and the copies of books on their colour inheritance genetics from The Stack at Sydney University. I set about my self appointed task. On the way I met some pretty amazing people, the staff of CSIRO Animal Health. Where else would you find the expertise than the men and women who kept this huge organisation supplied with healthy lab animals to conduct and sustain all the research work done that led the world in so many fields. (until our successive governments continual funding cuts have eventually ground to an almost standstill). I got to meet Hugh Gordon, Alec Lascelles, Jim Tyre, Jennifer MacDiarmid, Ph.D. & Himanshu Brahmbhatt, Ph.D.(justCLICK http://engeneic.com/ to see what these two genius's have achieved in cancer research, including the first mesothelioma patient in remission. link to relevant article: http://www.prnewswir...-300098861.html) To name just a few.

Jim donated three mainly black cavies from their Castle Hill facility, he and three mates (One of the four became my long patient hubby a decade or so later) went on to design, implement and teach the TAFE ANIMAL CARE COURSE. That is the course all Lab workers undertake as part of their training along with all the RSPCA Special Constables.

I added another 4 seemingly black Cavies from other members of the NSW Cavy Club and the challenge began. It took 6 years and 12 generations before I had entire litters of pure black baby cavies. (Gen had estimated 12 years and 24 generation, so I was lucky)

Along the way I discovered some of my cavy club purchases obviously carried a lethal gene. A percentage of babies would be born with misshapen ears, some with no eyes?

With such a small gene pool to work with, what to do? That is when I learnt why old time stud masters bred father to daughter, mother to son. It was not just to fix traits. It was also a tool to learn what if any deleterious genes they may carry. I did as tasked and soon found which original animals carried the disaster genes. Once i knew which lines might carry it, the next stage was to deliberately keep all females who had produced affected offspring and mate them to any young males I had intended using for the next generation, prior to him siring anything to the females of his generation. Female cavies breeding lives are too short to test breed them to known carrier males to see if they carry the gene. As Glen explained i needed a minimum of 16 from known carrier parent to an unknown carrier status parent to ensure a valid carrier or non carrier status to the unknown. Ideally 36 preferably 100 is the ideal figure but that just wasn't feasible. So using Glen's advice test breeding all potential stud males to carrier females eliminated the defective gene in 6 generations. Remember these were the decades before dna testing existed. As well the method, occasional father daughter, mother son mating's did a full sweep for possible hidden genes. Pretty necessary for an original gene pool of only 7 individuals.

Breeding is a hard game. Plenty of opportunity for tears. It is pretty distressing when the inevitable happens and you get babies which have to be put down because you know they will have no quality of life if left to struggle to survive. The flip side is knowing you are doing all you can to ensure future generations will be free of this.

I remember when The Canine Council, long before it became Dogs NSW, did a survey and discovered to its surprise less than 20% of new members were still members and breeding 5 years after registering their prefix. Something like 80% of their membership were the few who survived the initial traumatic first 5 to 10 years and mainly pensioners.

So many years later when I acquired my first pedigree puppy I came from a totally different background and mind set to most of you here on Dogzonline and the ANKC memberships.

I bought my first puppy from a lady named Phil, she was an unashamed ANKC breeder of family pets, who believe it or not ARE the real job of our dogs, its no accident the manual for breeders is compiled under the COMPANION ANIMALS ACT.

Dogs ARE companion animals, even the working breeds make great companions at days end. The dog show scene is the newcomer to the block, just read up when Dog shows first began for yourself.

So the day I read my first Breed Standard for my new puppy, I spotted a sentence that I found concerning. The words ran something "in the case of two of equal merit, the more diminutive preferred".

Nancy had long been a family friend before I acquired my first puppy, and I knew she loved showing, so took the new baby to see her. She was horrified at my choice of breeder who I had bought her from, but had to concede she was a nice puppy. I began to go to some shows with Nancy but soon noticed many judges were not bothering with the equal merit part of the standard, simply calling in the smallest in the lineup for the placings. Even in those early days (1978) many breeders considered surgical delivery to be normal. It was pretty obvious why. After acquiring Hillary Harmer's book The Complete Chihuahua, complete too with photos of her original Chihuahuas from Chile. Including the unforgettably named El Pis.

https://www.amazon.c...r/dp/0668029102

I began to question, what are they doing to the Chihuahua? What is trotting around the showrings in 1978 is not the dogs the Incas had bred vet free, surgery free for thousands of years. The "improved" version wasn't the self whelping dog of the Inca's anymore.

Any throwbacks to El Pis and his kennel mates were derided now as the Bambi type.

It didn't make me popular and I became an embarrassment to Nancy and her friends, but the darling never gave up on me and tried for decades to re-educate me, just as I tried to re-educate her. She never in or line bred, and and rarely kept a bitch or dog for breeding unless it had acquired Ch before its name, but she did begin selecting her bitches for pelvis as wide as the shoulders and checked for width between the pin bones and yes they self whelped beautifully.

To defend me from the puppy farmer label she began to show some of my dogs to their CH certificates as I had lost interest in showing by then.

Remember too this was before Animal Rights began asking similar questions.

The fuel for Pedigree Dogs exposed. Was long in the making and the ANKC breeders had members like me asking awkward questions long before the animal rights groups began collecting the ammunition for that doco. They had decades to listen and act before they were ambushed by the disaster of their own making. The biggest failure of the ANKC'S as I see it was to belittle the question askers instead of working to become proactive in the reduction of breeding and health problems in their respective breeds instead of sticking to the mentality that this is how they are , see how we have improved on the dogs of 40 years ago and ignoring those who questioned the 'improvements" and now reduced to reactive only to the challenges now being directed at them. As proven by the sudden deletion of that very sentence I had queried so many decades before from the standard after the airing of Pedigree Dogs Exposed.

As a side note, Phil put friendly temperament towards strangers one of the tops on her list, her dogs were unmissable in that department, I agreed with her. People used to be amazed to see such friendly Chihuahua's when they came to visit me.

Footnote: how successful were my Cavies? Some 15 years later in think 1987/88 not sure the exact year, the Cavy Club could advise you, Sydney Royal hosted two firsts, the First Cavy Exhibition at the Royal and the exhibition of English Imported Show Cavies. So who bred the first Sydney Royal Supreme smoothcoat Cavy? Percy Short with his pure Asal line Black and the Supreme Long Coat , I was thrilled to discover was also a Pure Asal line cavy. Sadly I cannot remember the name of the lady who Bred him but I hope some one can spot this and tell us some day. They were thrilled almost beyond words to have so beaten the English imports with their all aussie blood line cavies. (I dabbled with some of the early long coat lines as an aside to the main mission)

Asal you don't need to justify yourself or why you or anyone sold to Mcdougall back then . Mcdougall advertised a big two page spread in the Canine Journal and a printed notice for Dogs NSW members was circulated telling all of their members how great it would be for them to proceed to sell their puppies to PIAA member Transpet who was an agent for Mcdougall.No one who sold puppies back then to them breached any ethics or regs and some of the biggest names in the business were involved. It was actively encouraged by the canine councils.

That was then this is now and what ever you did or did not do 20 years ago simply isn't something you need to feel you should have to answer for on a public forum especially in a thread about banning greyhounds. Better to ignore the bullies when they start.

Great post Steve especially the bolded part.

[Sheridan]

Ah, Steve, true colours come shining through.

[Steve]

Ah, Steve, true colours come shining through.

You can say that again. Again I say to you play the ball and not the man.