How To Ensure Rescue Has A Positive Outcome

[love4paws]

Hi Everyone,

I had just joined the forums as I have a burning question/concern I am hoping more experienced dog owners can assist with... (and I think I also just want to share/talk about this experience a little too because I never have with anyone and I still feel very sad about it.)

My husband and I are planning to adopt a rescue dog this year, something we have been considering for about a year now, but I am really concerned about being able to ask the right questions to make sure we are choosing a suitable dog and hoping folks here can offer some guidance.

My fears lay in my (adult) daughter's rescue / adoption story... she adopted a beautiful GSD girl about 3 years ago. I shared the search process with her over many months until she found the right dog. She was located interstate and in total the costs for her adoption were over $2000 (with flights etc). I paid half of the costs for her at the time because as I felt it was a really special thing for her to be doing (daughter was in the army then and going through a bit of a hard time resettling away from home).

My daughter flew interstate to collect her new girl, and arrived home with her a few days later, very much madly in love already! I was on my way driving to stay with them for a few months when my daughter called me sobbing. D has a freestanding house with six foot wooden fencing and the new girl hadn't been out on walks yet. After a few days settling in D decided she felt ready to take her out for her first walk on the leash and as they exited the door the neighbour's young daughter was just walking home with their little Maltese, the new girl ran and hit the end of her lease pulling D over and escaping. She ran straight to the little girl and small dog and killed the little dog.

It was just so horrifying and traumatic for everyone. The parents of the little girl/little dog owners called around that night and abused D for killing their dog and traumatizing their little girl. D was absolutely devastated at this point! As mentioned I arrived and stayed with them in the following months and took over care of the new girl as D withdraw and just couldn't emotionally deal with the situation (this was her first dog as an adult). I handled all the council interviews during the investigation. I never imagined being responsible for owning a dog that killed another and traumatized a family. We are just not those people.

The GSD girl was just the most beautiful loving dog (inside) the home. In the next month I really fell in love with her too and felt so sad for all she must have been through. She was obviously never socialised and had not had an easy start in life. I lived on cattle stations for decades where I trained working dogs (collies, kelpies) and I took the new girl for a couple of walks (very late in the evening) to try to gauge what was going on with her. She was extremely fearful and display frenzied dog aggression in 100% of cases seeing or hearing another dog.

The council ruled she did not have to be PTS as this was a first offence, but my daughter was terrified to walk her outside of the home at all. I offered to stay longer and help her to keep working with her/rehabilitating her. D decided she was just too dangerous and made the difficult choice to PTS.

I don't know if I am portraying very well just how devastated our family was through-out this whole experience. Devastated for our neighbours and their little dog, devastated for D and the trauma she experienced (3 years on she is still not comfortable around dogs), devastated for the beautiful GSD girl who didn't get to have a happy life with a loving family. When we spoke to the rescue group when the attacked first happened they denied any knowledge of her aggression issues.. but my daughter explained later that she was being kept in a boarding kennel in a separated far rear kennel when she collected her and she was told she had been there for many months as a foster carer couldn't be found for her.

Anything like this would obviously be a great big warning flag for us this time around, but are there any small/easy tests or assessments we should try to carry out when we meet potential dogs that will helps us to see any serious underlying issues...? How do we check out if a rescue group/person is responsible/experienced/reputable?

Thanks so much in advance for any advice.

[Pjrt]

A couple of things I think I'd want

......to be able to meet the dog in the home of a foster carer and talk directly with the foster carer, and be able to take the dog for a walk or a meet at a park with the foster carer.

....... Maybe look at much younger dog

..,,,...see if you can find a dog with a well documented history over a dog with no known history

........once you are fairly sure a dog is a good match maybe ask if you can have an independent assessment by a professional behavioural trainer

[Loving my Oldies]

What a sad sad story. My heart goes out to all of you involved in this tragedy.

Unfortunately, most people think that anyone who is involved in rescue is kind, generous, totally honest, upfront, has only the purest motives, etc etc. Time after time after time it has been shown that this is not the case and people like you and your daughter, your neighbours (not to mention the poor poor dogs) pay the price for unscrupulous, irrational and downright dangerous rescuers.

Small comfort, I know, but in my opinion you did absolutely the right thing by having the dog PTS. Apart from the terror your daughter experienced when walking her, some dogs are being released from their own trauma by being PTS.

I’m sure you will get lots of advice and help, but my first thought is not to adopt from interstate, adopt from a rescue group close by where your daughter has the opportunity to meet the dog.

I endorse all the suggestions made by BlinkBlink.

Good luck.

[Two Best Dogs!]

My first dog was similar to your daughter's dog. Although neither of the dog's she attacked passed away (including my own other dog, but her victims were bigger...) I knew I couldn't handle such a big and aggressive dog. She didn't come with the rescue signs yours did though (isolation from other dogs), I think she truly flew under the radar and no-one had any idea until she snapped a few months later in my care. We were all pretty upset over it. I surrendered her to the RSPCA and she was PTS after failing (all) their tests.

I haven't decided yet if my current dog's future friend will be from a breeder or a rescue (I've been looking into both), but for each dog no matter the source I will be asking (and did the first time):

- observed history on the dog with other dogs/people/children

- any known history

- what is known so far over temperament and health

- if the breed/breeds in the dog are known I would look in to see if they're a breed prone to aggression in people or dogs

- If they reckon the dog is dog-friendly, I want to see the dog in action around other dogs and people - go to an offlead area (NOT a dog park, something open like a beach where dogs have space) and watch that dog with other dogs, known and unknown. I ALSO want to see how that dog is with other dogs onlead. Dog doesn't need to know how to walk on a lead, I just want reassurance they're not going to scream threats at other dogs.

- all the cons. All dogs have cons and I would appreciate being warned up front of any problems they think might happen so I can prepare.

This time around I will also:

- I would ask/pay for my dog behaviourist to come out and assess a dog I am seriously considering on adopting/+ observe a meet and greet between the potential dog and my current dog.

- Trial periods

- if rescue, either from a foster home or i can foster it (get a better idea of the behvaiour in a home versus a kennel versus pound)

cause no matter where I get a dog, I want a trial run of 4 weeks with a guarantee to return. Many rescues do a foster-with-a-view-to-adopt type situation, so you can really see if you and the dog fit. Also I think sometimes the dog will express themselves differently between living situations. My first dog went from a country foster situation where she lived in a mixed pack of 10 dogs on a farm to living in the city with one other dog. I'm afraid my first dog most likely falls under "shit happens" so all I can do is my best to reduce the risk of it happening again.

Edited June 18, 2016 by Thistle the dog

[westiemum]

Lots of good advice love4paws. Devastating though it was you absolutely did the right thing by giving this girl her wings and releasing her. I doubt there was anything that could be done safely with her and she would not have enjoyed life.

I'm so sorry to hear such a devastating story. It sounds like your daughter tried to do all the right things except to get the dog on trial before taking her home and as you said, double checking her socialisation.

It also sounds like she inadvertently got mixed up with a less than stellar or maybe very inexperienced rescue service and to be fair - I think this was the biggest part of you problem rather than the dog itself. The separated kennel at the rear was a red flag and an experienced person would have asked why? While I know they denied knowledge of her aggression issues, if that was the case why was she kept separate in a rear kennel? And why wasn't she fostered? I suspect that there was very little your daughter could do to avoid this and I feel for her and the family who lost their dog.

Most interstate adoptions work well for the right dog and the right adopter and rescue service. But I'm not sure I would have ever put a dog like this out for adoption in the first place. As you say I suspect the poor dog had it all stacked against her right form the word go. Very sad. Either way she needed to go to a very experienced breed home or sadly be given her wings and not adopted.

But at the same time I'm so pleased it hasn't put you off rescue for good. So I think the best advice is to adopt locally if you can and only take a dog on trial (usually for 2 -3 weeks) - and don't be afraid to take the dog back if you have concerns or it doesn't work.

Every situation will be slightly different, but when I rehome a dog, as a re-homer I do at least two home visits (checks!) and if possible I get references from a vet. And I expect the adopter to check me out too with lots of questions about me and the dog! Particularly whether or not the dog has been temperament tested or family fostered (there's a reason why your GSD girl wasn't fostered).

That's harder with interstate adoptions (and some rescue services won't adopt interstate for this reason), but it can be done. For example, I've done a couple of home visits for interstate rescue services and then the dog has arrived on trial. Even better, if the family then go and pick the dog up and stay locally for a trial if at all possible- but I know its not always possible. And for an interstate adoption checking out the rescue service is even more important - and thats where DOL can be very useful. And if the rescue service objects to your questions or gets antsy then move on - there are always plenty more gorgeous dogs needing good homes.

Also quiz the rescue service for as much information about the dog as you can. Adoption is a two way street and adopters should take as much time 'interviewing' and getting to know the rescue service as the rescue service does getting to know them. Think about or research the process of adopting a child and ask similar questions. Always always check out the dogs behaviour and where the dog is currently housed even if interstate - there's almost always someone here on DOL who can help you out with an good opinion. Just ask. Also ask the service how many dogs have been returned after a trial failure? This has only happened to me once - and we learned and did eventually find the perfect home for the boy.

And lastly never take a dog who is not offered on trial - whether local or interstate. And only adopt interstate knowing you just might have to foot the bill of returning the dog if it all goes pear-shaped - or giving the dog its wings.

The vast majority of rescue services are brilliant, operate at significant loss and really want to do the right thing. And they never pass on problem dogs. They deal with the problem and are with the dog as they pass if that becomes necessary.

So having said all that, what type of dog are you looking for and when? I have no doubt that someone here will be able to help.

Edited June 18, 2016 by westiemum

[koalathebear]

Lots of good tips above.

We have rehomed interstate before but only for puppies or for 'easy' dogs with no behavioural issues to experienced owners. My previous rescue group was proud of adopting interstate so used to want to adopt interstate, these days, my preference is to adopt out locally and only adopt interstate for very exceptional applications. This is so:

1. we can give support during the trial period
   
2. we can give support after the trial period
   
3. we can easily take the dog back if the trial fails
   
4. if the applicant has a cat or an existing dog, we engage a behaviourist to help manage the first meeting
   

We have a dog in care right now who has some behavioural issues we are working on so I am ONLY accepting local applications. We've had 13 applications for him so far but I've only accepted one very good one. This is so:

• applicant can come and take Jerry for walks
  
• I can actually show the applicant Jerry's behavioural issues that are being addressed and how they are being managed
  
• applicant can wrangle Jerry every Sunday at obedience class
  
• it's easy for Jerry and his applicant to get to know one another
  
• we can give support during the trial period
  
• we can give support after the trial period
  
• we can easily take the dog back if the trial fails
  

His applicant has a housemate with a cranky BC so we've had a behaviourist come in to help manage their meetings. With all our adopters we make full disclosure of ALL the dog's good points and bad points that we know about. we can't possibly socialise a dog with everything but all our dogs have a socialisation checklist so the adopters know what they have been exposed to and haven't been exposed to.

I write blog posts about our dogs' progress/training. For me, most of the applications we receive are GREAT, they're just often not right for the dog we have and for me, placing a dog with a home is like match-making. Some issues are manageable by some owners and less so by others. There's no perfect dog (although we've had a few borderline perfect ones) but there are a lot of perfect matches.

So that you don't have the same problem again, as people have mentioned:

• adopt locally so that you can get to know the dog first - walks, day visits, weekend sleepovers
  
• see how long the dog has been in care. If the dog's only been with the carer a few days, chances are they don't really know anything about the dog
  
• we engage a behaviourist or a dog-savvy friend to manage introductions but you could always engage your own to assess the dog. When we adopted out Chimes, her applicants asked a friend was was an experienced flyballer to assess her
  
• be wary of anyone who's just trying to shove the dog at you
  

Good luck with it all. Adopting a rescue dog doesn't have to be a nightmare. If you look here, you will see our adopters all keep in touch with us even years after adoption and we've had no problems with our dogs post-adoption. My husband and I offer a permanent lifetime guarantee that we'll take a dog back and refund the adoption fee but so far no one has ever taken us up on it although Chimes' owner did joke that they'd send her back to us because she's a digger - although being a flyball champion kind of offsets that ;)

Edited June 18, 2016 by koalathebear

[Maddy]

If a rescue keeps their dogs in kennels and adopts straight out of kennels.. I'd avoid them like the plague. How a dog behaves in kennels is often completely different to how they are in a home and without a decent amount of time living a "normal" life with a foster carer, I don't think dogs can really be accurately assessed. Case in point, recent incident involving the Dogs' Home down here where a shelter dog was being walked in public by a volunteer (a dog which had passed all assessments) and this "adoptable" dog attacked another dog and a couple of people.

I'd also expect that the rescue does actually assess to some standard- not just chucking the dog in with another dog once and if no one gets killed, it's considered fine. By this, I mean written assessments, dated and signed by the person who did them.

On top of that, in my opinion, trial periods should absolutely be required and before adoption even takes place, the dog having a chance to meet all resident family members and pets to ensure there aren't any obvious problems.

The trouble with rescue is that while it used to be a pretty reliable way to get a great pet, there are a LOT of dodgy "rescues" around these days and you do really have to research carefully.

[westiemum]

I ALSO want to see how that dog is with other dogs onlead. Dog doesn't need to know how to walk on a lead, I just want reassurance they're not going to scream threats at other dogs.

Thistles quote reminded me when I got Andy from a puppy farm, he couldn't walk on a lead to save himself, had never slept in a soft dog bed (he still prefers hard floors at times), had never eaten out of a bowl, wasn't toilet trained, couldn't sit,stay etc, and had lived his life in a big cage fighting for food every second day (yes I saw this).

I took him on knowing it could end badly and at the back of my mind, that I may have to PTS. But luckily he is deep down a good natured boy who just needed to be trained. So I basically started from scratch and puppy trained him.

But the trick was that he was basically a good natured boy so I had something to work with. (The rest can be trained). And that's why trialling and checking the dogs temperament either through temperament testing, fostering or trialling or all the above is so important.

Edited June 18, 2016 by westiemum

[westiemum]

If a rescue keeps their dogs in kennels and adopts straight out of kennels.. I'd avoid them like the plague. How a dog behaves in kennels is often completely different to how they are in a home and without a decent amount of time living a "normal" life with a foster carer, I don't think dogs can really be accurately assessed. Case in point, recent incident involving the Dogs' Home down here where a shelter dog was being walked in public by a volunteer (a dog which had passed all assessments) and this "adoptable" dog attacked another dog and a couple of people.

I'd also expect that the rescue does actually assess to some standard- not just chucking the dog in with another dog once and if no one gets killed, it's considered fine. By this, I mean written assessments, dated and signed by the person who did them.

On top of that, in my opinion, trial periods should absolutely be required and before adoption even takes place, the dog having a chance to meet all resident family members and pets to ensure there aren't any obvious problems.

The trouble with rescue is that while it used to be a pretty reliable way to get a great pet, there are a LOT of dodgy "rescues" around these days and you do really have to research carefully.

Excellent post maddy.

[_PL_]

Holy hell.

I don't know what the answer is I'm just so so sorry.

Maddy has given some great advice and I would go with her advice as a rescue who has rehomed large breeds (Greyhounds) with a prey drive that needs proper assessment and management as well as having muzzling laws on top of that.

There is a lot of No Kill stuff around that is misinterpreted as; anything is better than dying in the pound. Cold hard truth is that not all dogs should be adopted out.

Next time I would go local or as close as practical to go and meet, play with, walk the dog and keep in close contact with the carer. Find a carer (like ours LOL) who can't shut up about their dogs and will tell you the good, bad and norty. I'd also make sure there has been a settling period in care of at least a month because dogs can take a while to show their nature.

[Two Best Dogs!]

Thought of another thing, since I know the process is so hard then on the meet and greets your brain is trying to assess and speak and ask questions and possibly falling for some brown eyes at the same time.

Have a check list of things to avoid forgetting anything. After your meet go through and check things off. If you forgot to ask anything, no big deal! Call them up the next day or have another meet!

Don't forget to put deal breakers into your check list and stick to them.

Mine are simple: I won't take a dog that is dog aggressive or dog indifferent. I won't take a dog that is human aggressive. I won't take a dog that barks excessively i.e. while walking. I wont take with severe separation anxiety but I'm okay with minor. That's pretty much it, I'm happy to work through everything else.

Make sure to have a cool down period. I had a week between meeting and telling them I'd like to adopt.

Try not to rush? By the time I got around to Scarlet and Thistle, I had been turned down for 10 dogs or missed out on an application. I'm not sure if that affected the adoption process but it could have. I probably wasn't ready for 2 (big) dogs so I'm taking it very carefully this time. So I guess try to have breathers and try your best to avoid taking more than you can deal with.

I think you can do it :) Even asking here is showing you will do your best to avoid such a horrible event!

Edited June 18, 2016 by Thistle the dog

[westiemum]

Yep Thistle's right. I really admire you for telling your story so honestly - heart-breaking as it is - and then getting advice from the DOL brains trust to avoid it happening again. The fact you are asking such sensible questions means I'm sure you can do it too!

[corvus]

I would look for evidence of socialisation with other dogs. When I was a kid, we adopted a very sweet dog from the pound. For 2 years, everything was fine as she slowly came out of her shell and settled in. Then she got into a fight with my dog and it became apparent that she did not know that fights with other dogs are meant to be all ritualised aggression. She fought to injure, every single time, and eventually it seemed like she might be going to fight to kill next time. We didn't know it was there for 2 years, because that's how long it took for the conditions in which it would be observed to eventuate. Maybe I'm biased because I think dog-dog social behaviour is amazing and an endless source of fascination for me, so I NEED my dogs to have reasonable social skills, but it also means they are probably buffered against negative experiences with dogs if they have had some positive experiences, and if there is reactivity, it is often easier to manage and retrain (with some exceptions). I suppose our experiences suggest that information is power, and I'd be asking the foster carer about any scenarios the dog has been in that caused distress or aggression. It's not a deal breaker if they have displayed those things, but if they have, at least we know how hard they are going to bite or what their favoured coping strategy is and what it takes to tip them over the edge. Dunbar used to say he would take the dog from the shelter that had bitten, because then he knows how good its bite inhibition is.

ETA, my brother took in a dog early last year from rescue. It soon became clear he was a compulsive nipper. I took him for a week to see what was going on, and seriously, it was extreme and at times he would nail you several times just because something unexpected had upset him. The rescue eventually agreed to take him back and put it around that my brother had not kept up his training and he had gone back to his old ways as a result. They recommended him for a home with children. I don't know what became of him, but I dearly hope he did not go to a home with children. I got him to a point within the week he was here that he was not leaving new bruises on me every day, but I know what I'm doing. It was sad, but he had some very deep rooted problems that were not going to go away in a big hurry.

Edited June 18, 2016 by corvus

[Steve]

I agree with Maddy. There are some great rescue groups around who do actually take extreme care to assess the dog and ensure that only great dogs go to families best suited to them.

There is a campaign to push for dogs to be sent home straight from pounds but I would look for a group that has the dogs in a home setting for a while so they really get to know it and test it under all sorts of situations and stimuli.

[juice]

There are very good rescues out there, and very bad ones .

They will mat5ch the dog, home check, give backup for life etc.

Get advice here if you see a dog and ask if the rescue is a good one, not all on petrescue are sadly.

[westiemum]

I agree with Maddy. There are some great rescue groups around who do actually take extreme care to assess the dog and ensure that only great dogs go to families best suited to them.

There is a campaign to push for dogs to be sent home straight from pounds but I would look for a group that has the dogs in a home setting for a while so they really get to know it and test it under all sorts of situations and stimuli.

Yep absolutely. I generally have a rescue for at least 6 weeks and sometimes longer - no ifs buts or maybes - remembering that we've never had any trouble finding multiple homes for a westie and people are generally very eager to get their hands on them..

[love4paws]

Wow, thank you so much to everyone for the fantastic replies. I really appreciate all the great information and ideas so much!!

I have just now copied them all and started putting them together to create a checklist that we will use during the adoption process. It will be immensely helpful!

There are so many great posts I need to re-read back over them all again, and will reply in more detail soon.

Edited June 19, 2016 by love4paws

[Akayla]

I haven't read all the replies, sorry if it's been mentioned already but one of the things I'd be looking at is honesty. Look to see if they have other dogs listed as being dog aggressive etc. If they are up front about the troubled ones you will know which ones to avoid. I can think of a couple of rescues like this. In fact they are very careful in their placement and will refuse to send a dog to the wrong home. It's harder to get a dog off them but if you're patient it will be worth it.

[Isabel964]

OMG.

I am so sorry for this experience, how horrific and dreadfully sad. Im also very sad that your daughters neighbours decided to be so aggressive not understanding that she was just as traumatised and horrified as they were.

We only know what we know.

All I can say is research research research.

Our family decided to rescue when we lost our beautiful Punpun, a 15 year old kelpie earlier this year. I got to know petrescue.com very well and found the different rescue groups have different rules and ways about going about things.

A dog that has been behaviourally assessed and spent time in foster care, with a foster carer that can be met and tell you about the dog, is best.

I would also get a well reputed behaviourist to assess the dog.

Most rescue groups let you have the dog for a week or two, and you can bring the dog back if its not a match and they will continue to find it a suitable home. In that time you can get the dog professionally assessed, or even before you take it to your home.

You can get to know a rescue group, go meet them, talk to them.

So

- get the dog assessed by a professional behaviourist.

- get a private training lesson with the dog after you have had it for a little while

- get the dog to obedience training

- there is doggy day cares that are good for socialisation - good idea to take it to one of those, I take my rescue twice a week

I really wish you well.

I rescued Lucy at 4 months of age. She is a kelpie staffy cross. Even at 4 months, without a good start in life, there can be issues. She is a massive handful but we are 100% committed to doing whatever it takes with her. She has had a private training session, then started her at obedience school, lasted two weeks and changed to a better school. we now go every Sunday morning and Wednesday night to obedience training.

I think your daughter was very unlucky.

Do what feels right for you. Whatever you need to have confidence the dog to being in is ok, that what you need to get done. Maybe make a list and find rescue groups who will work with you. and definitely 100% get the dog behaviourally assessed. OR....you could rescue a puppy. Sometimes pregnant females are found needing a home and then the puppies need a home too.

All the best.

[Kavik]

I would be careful of doggy daycares. They are not suitable for all dogs, and I don't just mean dogs which are not social. Some daycares are obviously better than others, but the one I worked at and another I have seen have a lot of dogs in a very small space and not many staff members, and this can be stressful for the dogs, and also the amount of dogs and activity over that period of time can overstimulate them and overexercise them (especially puppies). I would never take my dogs to one.