Willem Posted June 14, 2016 Author Share Posted June 14, 2016 (edited) For that recall where she didn't come straight back... Susan Garrett would have given a pat but no food treat. For me this is one of the hardest things - not rewarding a crappy recall - because I'm scared I will get no recall. But when I actually do the pat not treat for crappy recall - dog gets a little bit more excited cos she was *expecting* a treat (training fail on my part), and will work harder next time - ie I actually get better recalls if I aim to reward "average or better" performance instead of crap performance. you mean the one in the footage with her lab friend?...consider that I'm literally competing - with my few grams of treat - against over 40 kg pure fun :D !...and this is not just a dog or obedience classmate, this dog is the pinnacle of distraction for her. There was a time when she could have been hungry and I could have had the best of the best treat and I just wouldn't have existed when there was another dog (any other dog) around. Hence even just getting her attention when her lab friend is around means success :D . The other thing is that it was more or less the first time I used the mobile phone to record her on a walk for some training sequences. That meant that the phone (and it is in a pouch with a flapping lid) obstructed the view to my face plus one of my arms have always been up - it definitely stuffed up my body language and interfered with my hand signals. Edited June 14, 2016 by Willem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted June 14, 2016 Author Share Posted June 14, 2016 With regards to reliable recalls I also think it depends on the type of dog- the more independent or more distracted, the higher the ongoing rate of reinforcement needs to be and classically conditioning a recall can be really beneficial with these dogs, meaning you reinforce every one. IMO the dog's individuality plays a very big part in the whole training - there was a time I was really concerned that her whole training / education goes pear-shaped, when I didn't know what works for her and just couldn't get her focus when other dogs have been around. And testing different strategies bears always the risk to stuff it up totally - especially considering that my experience - compared to someone who trained hundreds of dogs - is quite limited (we also never had a BC, and this one is even from a herding / working line and has strong herding traits). Seeing now that everything comes together nicely is pretty rewarding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simply Grand Posted June 15, 2016 Share Posted June 15, 2016 (edited) Interesting comment from you in another thread: I have MANY clients with lists just as if not far more "impressive" than that one and it doesn't mean they should be looking at rehoming the dog! I didn't say that they should rehome the dog (I really don't have the information or are otherwise in a position that would allow me to make a judgment about this), however, with so many issues which seem to be caused by lack of commitment for the required training I think it is worthwhile to contemplate about such an unpopular option. I have no doubt at all that the issues can be fixed via an appropriate training and skilled trainer, but I'm not sure whether the owners are ready to embark on this journey, which is now that the dog is already 14 month old a lot harder than it was when the dog was younger. Um, your dog had issues at 9 months old that you hadn't been able to get under control, I don't see how not having all the knowledge early on in a dog's life indicates that an owner isn't ready to embark on a training journey. I think you compare apples (13 - 15 kg dog at the time that got over-aroused when seeing other dogs) with pears (44 kg dog - leash pulling, over-aroused most of the time, humping both owners, biting, barks); the OP asked for 'any recommendations', hence my recommendations is also to think about 'unpopular options' - again, I don't say the dog should be rehomed. Do you not feel confident that the training methods you employed with your 13-15kg over aroused dog would be successful with a 44kg over aroused dog? If not then yes, I guess you would be comparing apples to pears. I'm very confident that they would have been successful, but I'm also very confident that it would have been much more work with a 44 kg over-aroused dog,...much more work...E.g., while it wasn't really pleasant my wife could still walk our dog, thus sharing the work, but she wouldn't have been able to walk a 44 kg dog that pulls like crazy and tries to hump her. Eta:...we getting a little bit of topic, sorry. All what I wanted, was to suggest to put all options on the table, also the unpleasant ones. You are saying that your wife couldn't have employed your training techniques on a bigger, stronger dog. That seems like a big limitation on your techniques when it comes to dog training in general. That's why so many of us use and advocate methods that don't rely on compulsion, but instead work on motivating the dog to choose to do what we want them to do. Edited June 15, 2016 by Simply Grand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted June 15, 2016 Author Share Posted June 15, 2016 (edited) Interesting comment from you in another thread: I have MANY clients with lists just as if not far more "impressive" than that one and it doesn't mean they should be looking at rehoming the dog! I didn't say that they should rehome the dog (I really don't have the information or are otherwise in a position that would allow me to make a judgment about this), however, with so many issues which seem to be caused by lack of commitment for the required training I think it is worthwhile to contemplate about such an unpopular option. I have no doubt at all that the issues can be fixed via an appropriate training and skilled trainer, but I'm not sure whether the owners are ready to embark on this journey, which is now that the dog is already 14 month old a lot harder than it was when the dog was younger. Um, your dog had issues at 9 months old that you hadn't been able to get under control, I don't see how not having all the knowledge early on in a dog's life indicates that an owner isn't ready to embark on a training journey. I think you compare apples (13 - 15 kg dog at the time that got over-aroused when seeing other dogs) with pears (44 kg dog - leash pulling, over-aroused most of the time, humping both owners, biting, barks); the OP asked for 'any recommendations', hence my recommendations is also to think about 'unpopular options' - again, I don't say the dog should be rehomed. Do you not feel confident that the training methods you employed with your 13-15kg over aroused dog would be successful with a 44kg over aroused dog? If not then yes, I guess you would be comparing apples to pears. I'm very confident that they would have been successful, but I'm also very confident that it would have been much more work with a 44 kg over-aroused dog,...much more work...E.g., while it wasn't really pleasant my wife could still walk our dog, thus sharing the work, but she wouldn't have been able to walk a 44 kg dog that pulls like crazy and tries to hump her. Eta:...we getting a little bit of topic, sorry. All what I wanted, was to suggest to put all options on the table, also the unpleasant ones. You are saying that your wife couldn't have employed your training techniques on a bigger, stronger dog. That seems like a big limitation on your techniques when it comes to dog training in general. That's why so many of us use and advocate methods that don't rely on compulsion, but instead work on motivating the dog to choose to do what we want them to do. :D ...no, that is not what I'm saying...the reason why my wife is not able to handle and train a boisterous 44 kg dog is simple: she can't train any dog, it is just not her thing. She can walk our dog, and could walk her also when she pulled, but she couldn't train her and never trained her. Saying this, now that I'm older she might be even stronger than me :laugh: , so it is not only about strength, also there might be scenarios where strength can help. On the other hand, it doesn't matter whether you do crazy walking with a 17 kg dog or with a 60 kg dog: it is about technique and timing, it doesn't need much force to correct a bigger dog while doing crazy walking if the force is applied correctly and the timing is precise. But if you don't have the technique, you just get dragged behind the dog. ...and no, she wouldn't be able to motivate the dog to choose what she want her to do either :D ...she is easily scared by other dogs, which doesn't help either.... I can't cook on the other hand... Eta: and the size of the dog matters, no matter what trainings methodology you choose. Reason is that the unwanted behaviour won't disappear just by choosing positive reinforcement, force-free or non force-free training. It doesn't make click and it is gone. Hence while you are on this journey there will be still scenarios that need to be managed which are more challenging the bigger and heavier the dog is. Edited June 15, 2016 by Willem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted June 15, 2016 Author Share Posted June 15, 2016 yesterday evening I came home from agility, despite that it was below 10 deg C I was soaked in sweat and totally exhausted. While I was reading news on the laptop I still could hear her playing outside chasing her plastic flower pot through the garden burning further energy (seems she likes to humiliate me by showing what an old geezer I have become :D ). The last 2 trainings had been cancelled due to storms, and every time we 'restart' the official training after breaks she gets very excited and her old herding habits break through - my down jacket has 2 new rips, however, I made it through the training without further scratches, bruises and bleeding :) . The problems are the breaks between the runs, e.g. when the instructors give advice or discuss things, or when it is just not her turn. We had a challenging big course, plus 2 smaller courses dedicated to special training (weavers, positioning for distance control), so she still was pretty busy, and her runs were not too bad, but during the breaks she got very jumpy and started nipping. If I train her at home using my cheapo agility equipment I made over time there are more or less no breaks - we just use the time we have. Back to the official training and she 'feels punished' by the breaks. The options I use(d) so far: time out (back to the car, station wagon with cargo barrier so it's similar to crating) to give her a rest to calm down - works sometimes pretty good, yesterday not (she came out of the boot and just kept on going). grab her collar (and that's not a force-free collar grab!!!) and a firm look with a 'NO' to prevent jumping and nipping till she calms down - works sometimes pretty good, yesterday not. just make her drop, and walk away a few meters; she knows this is an exercise where she can earn a treat at the end - if she performs well. Worked - and always works - pretty good, problem is that I still have to focus on her (have to get the timing right when I relieve her) which makes it hard for me to follow the instructors. make her drop and just step on the leash to prevent her from jumping - obviously also not force-free, but works best in those situations as it allows me to focus on the instructors. I saw this coming based on previous experiences when there have been trainings cancelled, so I tried to wear her out before the training with walks, runs, flirt pole games - works when it is really hot, but with the cooler weather now she just seems to have inexhaustible energy, and the biggest punishment for her are the breaks between the exercises. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted June 15, 2016 Share Posted June 15, 2016 Easy. Reward the breaks between training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted June 16, 2016 Share Posted June 16, 2016 willem - maybe she needs some 'be calm' training ... sounds as if she is always"on" - and is just getting fitter & fitter, and needing more 'on' time ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted June 16, 2016 Author Share Posted June 16, 2016 willem - maybe she needs some 'be calm' training ... sounds as if she is always"on" - and is just getting fitter & fitter, and needing more 'on' time ..... yeah, this agility stuff made her quite addicted (me too I have to say :D )...if I don't slow her down before the seesaw she shoots up and reaches the other end while it is still in the air :laugh: ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted June 16, 2016 Author Share Posted June 16, 2016 Easy. Reward the breaks between training. ah, it is not sooo easy. It requires that I focus on her, but during the training there is some time where I respectively all the handlers have to do other things, e.g. adjusting the jumps to new heights for smaller or bigger dogs. But yes, I have to start at home by adding breaks to the agility training - maybe add a blanket as a dedicated rest spot, or get one of those soft crates as the dedicated break spot. I can't blame her, I asked for her focus when we started on this journey, now she asks for mine :laugh: . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted June 16, 2016 Share Posted June 16, 2016 (edited) Easy. Reward the breaks between training. ah, it is not sooo easy. It requires that I focus on her, but during the training there is some time where I respectively all the handlers have to do other things, e.g. adjusting the jumps to new heights for smaller or bigger dogs. But yes, I have to start at home by adding breaks to the agility training - maybe add a blanket as a dedicated rest spot, or get one of those soft crates as the dedicated break spot. I can't blame her, I asked for her focus when we started on this journey, now she asks for mine :laugh: . Crate training. All my agility classes use crates between sessions which last about 5 min. High drive or not, they need to learn to chill. My dogs often fall asleep. They also learn to lie unrestrained on a bed whilst one of my three dogs are training. Or one of five or six if I am training with a friend. Edited June 16, 2016 by The Spotted Devil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Rusty Bucket Posted June 16, 2016 Share Posted June 16, 2016 SG says I don't know that that is a training fail Mrs RB, you want her thinking that every time she recalls could be the time she's gonna get that treat. You want that "work harder next time, coz she may have just missed out this time" - pokies principle. It wouldn't be a training fail - if I did what I said I should do... But I forget. I'm way more like a vending machine than I should be. Willem Agility breaks... I have a crate for my dog. She LURVES being in the crate - if she gets frustrated during training there's a risk she will nick off back to the crate cos that feels better than being frustrated. I also practice start line stays or drops with distractions. And that I do get right regards rewarding "average or better" so the stays become exciting training opportunity for dog. But they have to stay on the mat to get the reward (which is release and a game of tug - good, or food (ok) or release and it's our turn on course now - best - from the dog's POV). If the instructor is talking to me during or straight after a run... I always look after my dog first and give her something to do, drop, leg weaves, pats and ear rubs if she needs calming down... It's easy if I have crate set up, I can send her there (from quite far away) and then listen to instructor. Crate also protects her from loose dogs which happen sometimes. If we're moving around with lots of different start places I don't always set the crate up, I will make her drop and stay. A lot of us do that. It's an opportunity to train a reliable stay. But at home you've got to try and break the stay with increasing levels of distractions... fake her out. Something to try on the walk (and I confess I haven't got this yet) is random sits and drops - excellent if you can get it working with big lab distraction. Start close up with lots of rewards. have a list of things you can do while you're waiting your turn that don't need equipment or much space. eg change of position games (sit,drop,stand, spin, twist, drop, stand, sit, pretty....), leg weaves if you don't need to be on lead or if you're on course when you have to stop. You need your dog to be just as excited about "stay" as they are about jumping... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted June 16, 2016 Author Share Posted June 16, 2016 SG says I don't know that that is a training fail Mrs RB, you want her thinking that every time she recalls could be the time she's gonna get that treat. You want that "work harder next time, coz she may have just missed out this time" - pokies principle. It wouldn't be a training fail - if I did what I said I should do... But I forget. I'm way more like a vending machine than I should be. Willem Agility breaks... I have a crate for my dog. She LURVES being in the crate - if she gets frustrated during training there's a risk she will nick off back to the crate cos that feels better than being frustrated. I also practice start line stays or drops with distractions. And that I do get right regards rewarding "average or better" so the stays become exciting training opportunity for dog. But they have to stay on the mat to get the reward (which is release and a game of tug - good, or food (ok) or release and it's our turn on course now - best - from the dog's POV). If the instructor is talking to me during or straight after a run... I always look after my dog first and give her something to do, drop, leg weaves, pats and ear rubs if she needs calming down... It's easy if I have crate set up, I can send her there (from quite far away) and then listen to instructor. Crate also protects her from loose dogs which happen sometimes. If we're moving around with lots of different start places I don't always set the crate up, I will make her drop and stay. A lot of us do that. It's an opportunity to train a reliable stay. But at home you've got to try and break the stay with increasing levels of distractions... fake her out. Something to try on the walk (and I confess I haven't got this yet) is random sits and drops - excellent if you can get it working with big lab distraction. Start close up with lots of rewards. have a list of things you can do while you're waiting your turn that don't need equipment or much space. eg change of position games (sit,drop,stand, spin, twist, drop, stand, sit, pretty....), leg weaves if you don't need to be on lead or if you're on course when you have to stop. You need your dog to be just as excited about "stay" as they are about jumping... .... :D ...Man's Got to Know his Limitations ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted June 16, 2016 Author Share Posted June 16, 2016 @ MRB & TSD:...it's now the next big objective and focus for her training...(and one soft crate is still cheaper than a few ripped shirts and down jackets :D ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted June 16, 2016 Share Posted June 16, 2016 Crate training. All my agility classes use crates between sessions which last about 5 min. High drive or not, they need to learn to chill. My dogs often fall asleep. They also learn to lie unrestrained on a bed whilst one of my three dogs are training. Or one of five or six if I am training with a friend. Yep, this. If I am not actively training my dog, he is in his crate at training or trials. We are working on the lie on dog bed behaviour - this is proving rather challenging for him :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted June 16, 2016 Share Posted June 16, 2016 LOL @ TSD .. do you just carry a pr of nail clippers and use them as a cue to stop & relax ? ( excuse me ...giggle) + Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted June 16, 2016 Share Posted June 16, 2016 LOL @ TSD .. do you just carry a pr of nail clippers and use them as a cue to stop & relax ? ( excuse me ...giggle) + Funny perse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted June 16, 2016 Share Posted June 16, 2016 LOL @ TSD .. do you just carry a pr of nail clippers and use them as a cue to stop & relax ? ( excuse me ...giggle) + Funny perse my imagination painted this really cute picture - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papillon Kisses Posted June 16, 2016 Share Posted June 16, 2016 LOL @ TSD .. do you just carry a pr of nail clippers and use them as a cue to stop & relax ? ( excuse me ...giggle) + :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted June 18, 2016 Author Share Posted June 18, 2016 ...some serious crate training :) ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Rusty Bucket Posted June 18, 2016 Share Posted June 18, 2016 (edited) I don't think that's going to achieve what you want but at least it sets a clear boundary of where you want the dog... It's good for body awareness training. Now see if you can get the same thing with an icecream container or shoe box. Edited June 18, 2016 by Mrs Rusty Bucket Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now