What's So Bad About Using Force In Dog Training?

[Willem]

...I looking at this one http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/252082600653?euid=d921bb079a6349dc925a9dbed6450052&bu=43776903119&cp=1&sojTags=bu=bu ...size XL for just AU$ 76 (incl. shipping)...has curtains to block view all around. A little bit lightweight (4.5 kg) according to the seller, so quality might no be so good...but if it's totally rubbish I still can send it back - the K9+ Royale in a similar size (M/Large) weights 5.5 kg and cost AU$ 160 plus AU$15 for shipping - that's $ 100 more for this 1 kg heavier material (thicker material ? = better?)...

I don't envisage to use it for 'crating' at home, it is only for giving the agility training more structure regarding the breaks between the turns, and she is not destructive (except when she starts nipping my down jacket and shirts :D )...so should do.

[The Spotted Devil]

...I looking at this one http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/252082600653?euid=d921bb079a6349dc925a9dbed6450052&bu=43776903119&cp=1&sojTags=bu=bu ...size XL for just AU$ 76 (incl. shipping)...has curtains to block view all around. A little bit lightweight (4.5 kg) according to the seller, so quality might no be so good...but if it's totally rubbish I still can send it back - the K9+ Royale in a similar size (M/Large) weights 5.5 kg and cost AU$ 160 plus AU$15 for shipping - that's $ 100 more for this 1 kg heavier material (thicker material ? = better?)...

I don't envisage to use it for 'crating' at home, it is only for giving the agility training more structure regarding the breaks between the turns, and she is not destructive (except when she starts nipping my down jacket and shirts :D )...so should do.

I personally don't use soft crates at training/trials - they get too warm in Summer and if you have an excitable dog they can certainly break out (especially if you're running another dog at a National...not looking at anyone Ziggy, Mr "I'm missing out! Where's my turn?"). But I would invest in a K9+ Royale every time. Lasts for years provided your dog doesn't destroy it.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

personally don't use soft crates at training/trials - they get too warm in Summer

I dunno - shade important. Hot wire would be no fun. I can get two soft bladed fans into the caprice with my dog. I stole her cool coat tho.

[The Spotted Devil]

personally don't use soft crates at training/trials - they get too warm in Summer

I dunno - shade important. Hot wire would be no fun. I can get two soft bladed fans into the caprice with my dog. I stole her cool coat tho.

I don't leave them in the sun Mrs RB!!! That's what a gazebo or trees are for...much better flow through of air in a wire crate.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

much better flow through of air in a wire crate.

I guess. My gazebo is a bit wimpy when it comes to shade, and when I put another cover over - it actually gets hotter, but in the crate is cooler (thicker layer of shade). One day I might buy some of that silver mesh stuff.

I also like how the k9+ crates keep the bugs out.

[JulesP]

The K9+ crates have insulation in the roof too. I've never found them to get hot inside but I wouldn't have the dogs out in stinking hot weather either.

[sheena]

Jules....I love your aviater :laugh:

I saw a classic example of force training at the Border Collie Nationals last weekend. I had to really restrain myself from making comment. A woman had a couple of border collies on lead & one of them had a head halter on with a chain running directly under its chin. Every time the poor dog put his head out of place she gave it a nasty sharp yank on the head halter...she was doing like about one yank every few seconds. It must have been her way of teaching it to heel

[Willem]

Jules....I love your aviater :laugh:

I saw a classic example of force training at the Border Collie Nationals last weekend. I had to really restrain myself from making comment. A woman had a couple of border collies on lead & one of them had a head halter on with a chain running directly under its chin. Every time the poor dog put his head out of place she gave it a nasty sharp yank on the head halter...she was doing like about one yank every few seconds. It must have been her way of teaching it to heel

...I don't agree - that's not a classic example of force training :) - it is actually no training at all as it obviously doesn't teach the dog anything. It is just applying aversive stimuli without any (positive) outcomes (so in a way it is just plain stupid). Classical examples where force is used in training are:

• lead corrections, e.g. for crazy walking that leads very quickly to decent LLW;
  
• or just using force via the leash to prevent uncontrolled movement of the dog (e.g. towards a car, running across the road, chasing other dogs and cats);
  
• using force to get dogs in positions - possible with some dogs without applying any stress (if the dog trust you);
  
• using a wire crate instead of a soft crate when there is a chance that the dog likes to break out;
  
• force in play / games: you can't play tug of war without force;
  

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

•force in play / games: you can't play tug of war without force;

Sigh. That's the physics definition of force. So when someone says they're a "force free trainer" they're not talking about physics. They're talking about forcing an unwilling dog to do something it doesn't want to or doesn't understand that you want it to do (or not do) whatever.

So to me Force based training - is when you see a dog "trainer" get a dog that is sitting or standing - they say "Drop" and then force the dog into a down position with a firm shove behind the shoulders.

I have actually seen this at dog obedience clubs - it gives me the creeps. Same dog does not get rewarded, praise or pats when it does do what the trainer asked.

[Kavik]

Actually RMB, the clubs that I have seen use compulsion do use verbal praise and patting. And use restrained recalls.

[LisaCC]

Actually RMB, the clubs that I have seen use compulsion do use verbal praise and patting. And use restrained recalls.

I've seen a mix of both. Unfortunately I can think of two clubs I've seen just in the last 6 months that while watching each for half an hour I saw no rewards except for a verbal 'good dog', physically manipulating their dogs into positions and yank and crank heel patterns.