What's So Bad About Using Force In Dog Training?

[Willem]

And wrt zapping: I think I get zapped here on the forum quite often :D

I have to agree with that, and I'd also say as a training method for Willems it's been a complete fail. So either you don't find it aversive enough to change your behaviour or you have no idea what behaviour is supposed to change.

Either way - it's not working. So it's not exactly a punishment either (in the scientific jargon), it's just unpleasant. Unless you have a masochistic or troll drive.

now that's a real interesting one :D ...the forum (or better some members) employ(ed) what they call 'old fashion' training methods when it comes to convince me that 'force-free' trainings methods are the way to go....and you wonder why I have problems to believe that those 'force-free' methods are really the best way to go :D

talking and writing is one thing - the actions behind another....

[Willem]

And wrt zapping: I think I get zapped here on the forum quite often :D

I have to agree with that, and I'd also say as a training method for Willems it's been a complete fail. So either you don't find it aversive enough to change your behaviour or you have no idea what behaviour is supposed to change.

Either way - it's not working. So it's not exactly a punishment either (in the scientific jargon), it's just unpleasant. Unless you have a masochistic or troll drive.

I think argument for the sake of argument is highly rewarding for Willems. So when we try to punish by saying "you are wrong, here is why" he actually finds that to be an opportunity for reward because he can argue back.

We all know it too, I suspect. We know that not responding would extinguish the behaviour, but we continue to engage for our own reasons.

Excellent example of how animal (including human) learning and behaviour works :D

...as I tried to explain in my last post: it is a little bit different; I get 'zapped' by the 'force-free' promoting army to make me believe that force-free is the way to go - that's just not very convincing isn't it :D ?

Eta:...if I would use the ease of handling of the 'zapping' method some members demonstrate here as a benchmark, I'm actually quite happy that I'm not born as the dog of some members here :D

Edited June 13, 2016 by Willem

[Simply Grand]

And wrt zapping: I think I get zapped here on the forum quite often :D

I have to agree with that, and I'd also say as a training method for Willems it's been a complete fail. So either you don't find it aversive enough to change your behaviour or you have no idea what behaviour is supposed to change.

Either way - it's not working. So it's not exactly a punishment either (in the scientific jargon), it's just unpleasant. Unless you have a masochistic or troll drive.

I think argument for the sake of argument is highly rewarding for Willems. So when we try to punish by saying "you are wrong, here is why" he actually finds that to be an opportunity for reward because he can argue back.

We all know it too, I suspect. We know that not responding would extinguish the behaviour, but we continue to engage for our own reasons.

Excellent example of how animal (including human) learning and behaviour works :D

...as I tried to explain in my last post: it is a little bit different; I get 'zapped' by the 'force-free' promoting army to make me believe that force-free is the way to go - that's just not very convincing isn't it :D ?

We posted at the same time, and you're exactly right (except I don't think the posters in the thread are the "force free brigade", no one has claimed that). The operant conditioning way of stopping the debate with you would be to just not comment. If no one responded to your posts you would get significantly less out of posting and would most likely get bored and stop.

The fact that we continue indicates that we get something out of it ourselves. In my case, I enjoy a good debate about anything really, and even though you never agree with anyone else you are clearly not an idiot, and I don't think you're trolling, you just like a debate.

Which actually supports everything Kavic, TSD, Mrs RB, Cosmolo, Corvus and I (apologies anyone I'm missing) plus science, have been saying.

Edited June 13, 2016 by Simply Grand

[Willem]

And wrt zapping: I think I get zapped here on the forum quite often :D

I have to agree with that, and I'd also say as a training method for Willems it's been a complete fail. So either you don't find it aversive enough to change your behaviour or you have no idea what behaviour is supposed to change.

Either way - it's not working. So it's not exactly a punishment either (in the scientific jargon), it's just unpleasant. Unless you have a masochistic or troll drive.

I think argument for the sake of argument is highly rewarding for Willems. So when we try to punish by saying "you are wrong, here is why" he actually finds that to be an opportunity for reward because he can argue back.

We all know it too, I suspect. We know that not responding would extinguish the behaviour, but we continue to engage for our own reasons.

Excellent example of how animal (including human) learning and behaviour works :D

...as I tried to explain in my last post: it is a little bit different; I get 'zapped' by the 'force-free' promoting army to make me believe that force-free is the way to go - that's just not very convincing isn't it :D ?

We posted at the same time, and you're exactly right (except I don't think the posters in the thread are the "force free brigade", no one has claimed that). The operant conditioning way of stopping the debate with you would be to just not comment. If no one responded to your posts you would get significantly less out of posting and would most likely get bored and stop.

The fact that we continue indicates that we get something out of it ourselves. In my case, I enjoy a good debate about anything really, and even though you never agree with anyone else you are clearly not an idiot, and I don't think you're trolling, you just like a debate.

Which actually supports everything Kavic, TSD, Mrs RB, Cosmolo, Corvus and I (apologies anyone I'm missing) plus science, have been saying.

...that's actually my understanding of a 'forum', ...debates, life discussions, getting challenged via questions, rethink own opinions and positions, exchange ideas, benefit from other's experience, gain knowledge...(and I actually agree quite often, however zapping is just not very convincing for me, it needs solid arguments I can't knock over... :D )

[Willem]

PPGA: http://ppgaustralia.net.au/

"Pet Professional Guild Australia Members Understand Force-Free to mean: No Shock, No Pain, No Choke, No Fear, No Physical Force, No physical Molding, No Compulsion Based Methods are employed to train or care for a pet."

They go on to talk more about what this means with reference to the humane hierarchy and their guiding principles. This organisation is attracting membership in Australia, and I believe it has replaced one of the organisations for pet dog trainers that were already in place.

not much concrete information on this page, however, scrolling down the page I stumbled over the picture that says 'LEAD BY EXAMPLE' and I ask myself why do they promote such an advanced harness-collar system if they don't apply force? ...why do they promote a harness that constrains a dog more than any other harness and collar would, if it is not about controlling the dog via a leash??????

ok...found some information under educational videos, e.g.

...now while this looks all 'positive' - would you do this outside a controlled environment, e.g. on your daily walk along streets?...and if you can't do it during your daily walk as it would be obviously far too dangerous, do you just stay at home with your dog in your backyard till your dog adopts a perfect loose leash walk?...or do you use a leash and go out and accept some not so force-free moments?

another big big flaw (for me) of the demonstrated training is the way how the treats are offered in the clip: I don't like that my dogs picks up treats from the ground - for obvious reasons: focus of the dog goes away from me to the ground, she learns that it is ok to pickup food from the ground - if this dog in the video sniffs later a treat on the ground outside the leash range, you know what will likely happen...my dog gets food in her bowl, and treats from the hand - no exceptions.

The video shows force-free training, yes, but it is IMO far from being a good training, it has methodological flaws and it is limited to a safe controlled environment.

Eta: ...you get to this video via ADVOCACY button --> ADVOCACY VIDEOS --> EDUCATIONAL VIDEOS ....

Eta: ... I was wondering what she was actually doing in the last 2 section of the video (where she sits on the veranda and then when 'she puts it together')...so watched it again this morning...that's just terrible, you can see from the last sequence that the only thing she taught the dog is to pick food from the ground.

Edited June 13, 2016 by Willem

[Willem]

...and I thought this site http://ppgaustralia.net.au/ promotes 'force-free'?...

...the lady clearly uses force in the beginning by counter the pulling dog! ...and the relieve of the tension gets rewarded!...That's not force-free!...and it took her a month to get off the driveway!...call a spade a spade, accept that force can be useful and achieve what she achieved in a month in one week with crazy walking!...that's in total much less force that the dog would experience!!!!

Eta: video(s) can be found via this link http://petprofessionalguild.com/forcefreetrainingvideos ...if you put up such a website, at least make an effort to look for quality educational material otherwise the whole idea backfires...

Edited June 13, 2016 by Willem

[Willem]

...nice video, the only flaw in this video is that there are no dogs that show unwanted mouthing / nipping behaviour :laugh: ...don't show me only the result...show me the journey...

another video teaching the dog picking food up from the floor

...that's just swapping one bad behaviour with another bad behaviour....

another one showing the result

, but where is the journey?...

all these videos are under educational videos to demonstrate force-free training...

Edited June 13, 2016 by Willem

[Kavik]

I love kikopup, she has great instructional videos :)

I think the stop jumping up video looks good, rewards are placed on the floor so the dog anticipates low rewards (placement of reinforcement is very important) rather than high rewards so is more likely to keep their feet on the ground rather than jump up. Putting rewards on the ground is very common :) and often used to reset behaviours while shaping.

Here is one of my videos :) I am using food here as a distraction for IYC and want him to look at the food but not get it until I release him

Another one of mine - contact training this time, so sport specific. Rewards are placed on the ground as I want him to anticipate low rewards to keep his focus down and forward, and then release to a thrown food reward at the end.

Edited June 14, 2016 by Kavik

[Willem]

I love kikopup, she has great instructional videos :)

I think the stop jumping up video looks good, rewards are placed on the floor so the dog anticipates low rewards (placement of reinforcement is very important) rather than high rewards so is more likely to keep their feet on the ground rather than jump up. Putting rewards on the ground is very common :) and often used to reset behaviours while shaping.

Here is one of my videos :) I am using food here as a distraction for IYC and want him to look at the food but not get it until I release him

Another one of mine - contact training this time, so sport specific. Rewards are placed on the ground as I want him to anticipate low rewards to keep his focus down and forward, and then release to a thrown food reward at the end.

beautiful dog ...the box trick is very helpful when asking the dog to step on the scale :D ...

wrt treats: I trained her not to take treats from the ground; I drop a treat on the ground, had to say 'NO' at the beginning,...she doesn't take it, as a reward I pick up the treat and give it to her from my hand....if I see her fossicking I still have to use 'NO' from time to time, but we getting there.

[Kavik]

You can do the same with Its Yer Choice like in my video, instead of releasing them to the reward as I have done you can pick up the treat and give it in your hand. I didn't have to say "No" for this training :)

[Cosmolo]

Thrown food rewards are very powerful and useful- i don't find it increases ground scavenging when trained properly either and i don't see it as a bad habit!

[Willem]

not sure whether this works (dropbox link)https://www.dropbox.com/s/a93t48jr9ldzgd3/WP_20160614_09_15_33_Pro-FlirtPole.mp4?dl=0 ...link should get you to a clip that shows some flirt pole training;

some notes (I didn't bother to edit the video respectively to add comments in the video, so please take the following comments seriously):

• This game is a little bit tough as there is a lot of twisting, hard stops and jumping involved; if you want to try this with your dog you have to make sure that your dog is really fit, has no medical conditions, is not overweight etc. etc.... Be aware that in case your dog is spayed there is a significant higher risk in cruciate ligament injuries!!!...I wouldn't recommend it for bigger sized and heavier dogs as the impacts increase with weight significantly. My dog is used to this game, has only 17 kg, only muscles and bones, is entire, and her traits as a BC makes her an ideal athlete for this game.
  
• You recognize from the video that I trained her in front of the house on the green strip - there is no fence etc., cars passing by, people working on the other side of the road. Choose the place wisely!...and never let the dog drag a leash / long leash behind him in this game for the 'just in case' scenarios - the leash will tangle and can cause serious injuries!
  
• The flirt pole: just a rope and a rag from the garage and a PVC pipe from Bunnings. Make sure that the rope is thick enough - not for strength, but to avoid nasty cuts!...only play tug when the dog has a good grip of the lure, don't pull when he only has a grip of the rope!
  

I normally don't use treats for this game as the game itself is rewarding for the dog. I always throw some stands, drops, place etc. in to test her response to these cues.

[Willem]

...some recall training from today:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8s6rj5o3z7gb6a3/WP_20160614_09_42_06_Pro-Recall1.mp4?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ai8vqfmz4mr5pg8/WP_20160614_10_01_29_Pro-Recall2.mp4?dl=0

...in the second clip she broke the 'drop' twice - filming with the mobile phone might have also interfered with my hand signals.

Note: this clips are more or less only snapshots of her current obedience level (so showing only the results, not the journey - she is 17 month now). Focus to get there was always on positive reinforcement, but it was not total force-free as I used corrections too!

[Willem]

...and it was a fun day too as we bumped into her best friend...when 40kg hit 17 kg... :D

https://www.dropbox.com/s/zcgwa5ccta6rggp/WP_20160614_10_16_48_Pro-Fun1.mp4?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/q3qdpyher6xue3b/WP_20160614_10_20_49_Pro-Fun2.mp4?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/k4wta04p6ljhw0m/WP_20160614_10_32_43_Pro-Fun3.mp4?dl=0

[Willem]

https://www.dropbox.com/s/j5tk8c9vu38oews/WP_20160614_10_25_19_Pro-LLW.mp4?dl=0

...LLW...now, to put this into a context, 8 month ago this dog went totally nuts when she just saw another dog, there was nothing else existent (there is a thread here on the forum about it).

can someone confirm whether the links are working?...works from myside, but I'm not 100% sure about the settings.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Link to the loose lead walking seems to be working.

Labs are such space invaders but yours doesn't seem to mind.

Mine would have stopped four times to check out smells and once to pee in that length of time.

I tend to say "Frosty, what ya doing?" if I want her to loosen up instead of "Eh eh eh" like an excited Canadian.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

For that recall where she didn't come straight back...

Susan Garrett would have given a pat but no food treat.

For me this is one of the hardest things - not rewarding a crappy recall - because I'm scared I will get no recall. But when I actually do the pat not treat for crappy recall - dog gets a little bit more excited cos she was *expecting* a treat (training fail on my part), and will work harder next time - ie I actually get better recalls if I aim to reward "average or better" performance instead of crap performance.

[Simply Grand]

For that recall where she didn't come straight back...

Susan Garrett would have given a pat but no food treat.

For me this is one of the hardest things - not rewarding a crappy recall - because I'm scared I will get no recall. But when I actually do the pat not treat for crappy recall - dog gets a little bit more excited cos she was *expecting* a treat (training fail on my part), and will work harder next time - ie I actually get better recalls if I aim to reward "average or better" performance instead of crap performance.

I don't know that that is a training fail Mrs RB, you want her thinking that every time she recalls could be the time she's gonna get that treat. You want that "work harder next time, coz she may have just missed out this time" - pokies principle.

The key is that random reinforcement schedule, once they know the behaviour - reward just enough to keep them motivated, throw in a jackpot now and then, and give a pat or a casual "good" acknowledgement for decent performance.

ETA - now mine know the behaviour they often just get a "good" or a pat or a "thanks" for even a great recall, but then they'll get a jackpot chucked in for a good or great recall sometimes, so that whatever the circumstances, even high distraction, it's in their minds that this time could be the jackpot, and it might not come again for ages, so it's worth going to check.

Edited June 14, 2016 by Simply Grand

[Cosmolo]

With regards to reliable recalls I also think it depends on the type of dog- the more independent or more distracted, the higher the ongoing rate of reinforcement needs to be and classically conditioning a recall can be really beneficial with these dogs, meaning you reinforce every one.

[Simply Grand]

Yes, definitely. A proper classically conditioned recall is awesome!

I did use a really high reward rate early on in training with all of mine, and find that a really good way to get recall training going. I still use a fairly high reward rate too, we go through lots of treats at the dog park, but I've been lazy with the timing and consistency needed for a proper classical conditioning. My three are all pretty biddable (toy and herding breeds, plus there was 5 month family member foster puppy bull breed) so it's been easier to be a bit less consistent with them than with more independent breeds, but I LOVE Leslie Nelson's Really Reliable Recall with sight hounds.

Edited June 14, 2016 by Simply Grand