What's So Bad About Using Force In Dog Training?

[Willem]

as someone with a technical background I'm pretty familiar with the general term 'force' - and in the world of physics it just exists without prejudice. Without controlling force we wouldn't be able to build houses, developing engines and drive cars, we wouldn't even be able to walk as it requires to resist gravity.

Hence for me it is somehow strange that force used in dog training has such a negative image. Dog owners using force when handling, managing and training their dog seem automatically abusing the dog. I can torture and even kill my dog with food - for many dog owners food equals love, and more food equals more love, still food doesn't seem to have the same negative image as 'force'. Of course a lot of damage can be done by using force, but if used wisely it is also very helpful.

For me using force in dog training is just another tool in my tool box and I value it as high as I value positive reinforcement. And it is not even a one-way street in a dog/dog-owner relationship: think about guide dogs where the dog actually guides the owner via a gentle pulling force. Today I learned that for some dog owners the only purpose of the leash is to prevent that the dog gets hit by a truck...seriously???

Where does it come from that a training that focuses on positive reinforcement has to be at the same time force free?...I understand that the objective in dog training is to interact with the dog one day without requiring any force, but that doesn't mean for me that on the way towards this keen target I'm not allowed to use force. The simplest equipment that allows me to use force in a positive way is the leash: I use it to train loose leash walking, to control the distance to dangerous objects (cars, trucks etc.) or people, to correct the direction to make sure we (the dog and I) are heading in the same direction - and I do this by applying force. At the beginning I needed more force, now most of the time a very gentle tug is enough to get her attention. Other dog owner using the leash too, but some will argue that this has nothing to do with applying force.

Now - I mentioned this in another thread - Newton's law and Einstein's theory of relativity is valid also for the system dog-leash-handler: the dog can't apply a force on its own if the handler doesn't apply the force on the other end of the leash! The purpose of the leash is to 'force' the dog to follow the handler respectively to respond to the handler's movements, not the other way round (except for the guide dog) - so who is responsible for the force transferred via the leash?

And using a leash for managing, handling and training by applying force doesn't equal hurting the dog either. Force can be used for guidance, as a signal (works both ways, e.g. in case of guide dogs), pulling a sledge or even when playing tug of war - or other rougher games. Of course, the threshold when force becomes a hurting, painful stimuli needs to be considered all the time - what some dog owners seem to oversee is that this threshold differs from dog to dog and breed to breed. The way you can play rough with a cattle dog is likely not suitable for more gentle breeds and dogs - the key is to recognise where the threshold for each individual dog is, or more precisly, where the threshold for my/your own dog is to make sure it is not exceeded.

And the latter one might be the crux in this controversial discussion about using force vs. force-free training: if you are not confident regarding where this threshold for your dog is, you likely won't be confident in using force as a helpful tool.

May the force be with you ... :)

Edited June 11, 2016 by Willem

[Kavik]

Not all force is created equal in dog training :D

When people state they train force free they generally mean without physical corrections. This is widely understood terminology.

There are many times when restraining is used in positive training, but I would not say that this is using 'force' in dog training.

Eg restrained recalls or restrained sends to eg equipment.

You can train loose lead walking without you yourself pulling on the lead, you can use the lead to purely make sure the dog doesn't bolt off.

[Willem]

Not all force is created equal in dog training :D

When people state they train force free they generally mean without physical corrections. This is widely understood terminology.

There are many times when restraining is used in positive training, but I would not say that this is using 'force' in dog training.

Eg restrained recalls or restrained sends to eg equipment.

You can train loose lead walking without you yourself pulling on the lead, you can use the lead to purely make sure the dog doesn't bolt off.

if I use the leash to correct the direction my dog is heading to make sure we both going in the same direction I would call it physical correction...?...now - after training her using force in combination with positive reinforcement - it is enough to make the 'EH' sound, so no physical correction required anymore (saying this: a sound signal is somehow a physical signal too :) )

And I agree that you can achieve the same objective with different tools - depending on the individual dog some work better, some will take longer, some will come with associated risks. Using force applied via 'crazy walking' (it actually doesn't require much force with the right timing) was for me a very effective tool to erase excessive leash pulling.

[Kavik]

if I use the leash to correct the direction my dog is heading to make sure we both going in the same direction I would call it physical correction...?...now - after training her using force in combination with positive reinforcement - it is enough to make the 'EH' sound, so no physical correction required anymore (saying this: a sound signal is somehow a physical signal too :) )

Yes using the leash to correct the direction your dog is heading (if you pull on the leash) is a physical correction.

No, a sound signal is verbal, not physical, but your 'Eh' sound is a verbal correction.

You could have a leash on your dog, but not use it to correct the direction the dog is heading, instead you could be using food or your voice, body language, toys to keep your dog's attention, and the leash is just a safeguard to make sure it does not run off after something.

And I have nothing against 'crazy walking', I do a similar thing but try to change direction before he gets so distracted that the leash will come into effect

Edited June 11, 2016 by Kavik

[Willem]

if I use the leash to correct the direction my dog is heading to make sure we both going in the same direction I would call it physical correction...?...now - after training her using force in combination with positive reinforcement - it is enough to make the 'EH' sound, so no physical correction required anymore (saying this: a sound signal is somehow a physical signal too :) )

Yes using the leash to correct the direction your dog is heading (if you pull on the leash) is a physical correction.

No, a sound signal is verbal, not physical, but your 'Eh' sound is a verbal correction.

You could have a leash on your dog, but not use it to correct the direction the dog is heading, instead you could be using food or your voice, body language, toys to keep your dog's attention, and the leash is just a safeguard to make sure it does not run off after something.

And I have nothing against 'crazy walking', I do a similar thing but try to change direction before he gets so distracted that the leash will come into effect

wrt 'EH' sound: it is actually more a mix of an attention seeking signal and verbal correction...similar like using the tongue making the clicker noise (but that does only work over a few meters, not if she is 30 meters away from me). I use also 'NO', and that would be the verbal correction. The 'EH' is more a 'watch out what you doing' and if she doesn't rethink I have to use the 'NO'.

wrt 'crazy walking': as I mentioned I used also positive reinforcement (in form of treats, praise), however when she was younger she got so easily distracted that the added force (with the right timing while doing the crazy walk there is really no harsh jerking required) accelerated her learning dramatically. Now we do the crazy walk just a as heeling exercise without leash / force.

wrt definition of 'physical correction': some light reading here http://www.training-your-dog-and-you.com/Dog-Training-Corrections.html

[Kavik]

if I use the leash to correct the direction my dog is heading to make sure we both going in the same direction I would call it physical correction...?...now - after training her using force in combination with positive reinforcement - it is enough to make the 'EH' sound, so no physical correction required anymore (saying this: a sound signal is somehow a physical signal too :) )

Yes using the leash to correct the direction your dog is heading (if you pull on the leash) is a physical correction.

No, a sound signal is verbal, not physical, but your 'Eh' sound is a verbal correction.

You could have a leash on your dog, but not use it to correct the direction the dog is heading, instead you could be using food or your voice, body language, toys to keep your dog's attention, and the leash is just a safeguard to make sure it does not run off after something.

And I have nothing against 'crazy walking', I do a similar thing but try to change direction before he gets so distracted that the leash will come into effect

wrt 'EH' sound: it is actually more a mix of an attention seeking signal and verbal correction...similar like using the tongue making the clicker noise (but that does only work over a few meters, not if she is 30 meters away from me). I use also 'NO', and that would be the verbal correction. The 'EH' is more a 'watch out what you doing' and if she doesn't rethink I have to use the 'NO'.

wrt 'crazy walking': as I mentioned I used also positive reinforcement (in form of treats, praise), however when she was younger she got so easily distracted that the added force (with the right timing while doing the crazy walk there is really no harsh jerking required) accelerated her learning dramatically. Now we do the crazy walk just a as heeling exercise without leash / force.

wrt definition of 'physical correction': some light reading here http://www.training-your-dog-and-you.com/Dog-Training-Corrections.html

I am not sure you are aware, but I have done the NDTF course, so quite well versed on the motivation matrix :)

[Willem]

I am not sure you are aware, but I have done the NDTF course, so quite well versed on the motivation matrix :)

nope, I wasn't aware - on the other hand I hope you are not the only reader of this thread :D ; saying this, I appreciate your thoughts and comments and if ok I would like to pm you with some questions about the NDTF course...

[Simply Grand]

I'm reading but my comments would just be repeating what I said in the other thread.

I don't think "force free" is a particularly useful term when it comes to training, it is a bit ambiguous, and I don't use it. I'll quote one of my posts from the other thread.

" jerking on a puppy's neck cannot be comfortable and could easily scare and even injure the puppy. Not to mention what I believe it does to the bond of trust and communication between dog and handler.

Same with pushing a dog's back end down into a sit and pulling a dog into a drop by the collar, and the jerking the dog's head around by the head collar on each about turn that I mentioned previously.

Aside from the potential for physical and mental damage, the other thing about physically moving the dog or using touch cues (eg one person was cueing the sit on halt using a tap on the dog's back) is that it seems counter productive if the aim is obedience trialling. You're going to have to end up not using the physical cues so why not just start off with rewarding the dog for putting itself into the position you want? It doesn't bother me if people do it I guess, as long as they don't get rough if they get frustrated, I just think it's confusing for both dog and handler."

Above I'm talking about the use of physical cues that don't hurt the dog in the context of obedience trial training, but I think the same thing applies to training loose lead walking, I don't see the point of using a lead jerk to cue a direction change when you can just use a voice cue and reward to get the same result, and can then employ the same cue to the dog when not on lead.

That's a personal choice though, I'd rather not use even gentle physical force with my dogs when I don't need to but if other people want to I don't have a problem, unless as I said they get rough when they get frustrated.

Of course I do use force with my dogs, if they don't willing go into the front room where i put them while I am work then I physically carry them or walk them in there by the collar. If they are doing something to endanger themselves or others, or annoy others then I physically intervene if I need to. When Riley was choking on a chunk of cheese I'm sure I hurt him shoving my fingers all the way down his throat to fish it out, but all that's different to pulling a dog into a drop by the collar when you can achieve the same result with luring and rewarding them.

Edited June 11, 2016 by Simply Grand

[Kavik]

Sure you can PM me about the NDTF course :) I did it quite a while ago now though, and it has changed since then, but happy to share my experience.

I have done a lot since that course, and train very differently now than when I took the course, that was the first dog training course I did.

Now I concentrate mostly on agility and do mainly online courses or seminars with particular trainers that I like.

Edited June 11, 2016 by Kavik

[The Spotted Devil]

I actually agree with Bob Bailey who says that novice trainers should not be taught to use punishment. Learn how to apply positive reinforcement PROPERLY (ie mechanics, splitting vs lumping, rate of reward, differential reinforcement) before you apply principles you don't fully understand. Yes, severe punishment can permanently suppress behaviours but if you are continually having to give verbal or physical corrections the dog hasn't sufficiently learned the appropriate response. It's actually very inefficient.

For the record my PhD is on human-dog relationships, dog behaviour and welfare, I work with livestock and companion animals and I've trained 100s of dog owners. I have the only Agility Champion Dalmatian in the country, my ESS is a rare example of a positively trained working and competition Gundog and, after the Agility Nationals last week she's now the Novice Agility 400 National Champion. And I still don't think I know enough about the minutiae of training to consider using punishment as part of my methods. Am I a perfect trainer? No freaking way - unfortunately I'm human and had my early dog training influences to overcome. But I know the path I'm on not only gets results but is probably the most FUN I've ever had interacting with dogs.

I really don't like to debate training methods on the Internet as I'd rather spend that time doing other, more constructive things. Seriously, if you think your training method is the "right" way, take video, post it up, be proud of your technique rather than going around in circles. Saves a hell of a lot of time wasting. This is how I train:

Edited June 11, 2016 by The Spotted Devil

[Kavik]

I love your Recallers video TSD! It really shows how you can progress the games. I hope you get chosen for the finals :)

Edited June 11, 2016 by Kavik

[Steph M]

Today I learned that for some dog owners the only purpose of the leash is to prevent that the dog gets hit by a truck...seriously???

Wait, what the hell are you using it for?

If I'm walking my dog and he's walking nicely by my side then that's exactly the purpose? If something spooks him or distracts him or whatever the entire purpose of the leash is so he doesn't take off into traffic?

[Willem]

I actually agree with Bob Bailey who says that novice trainers should not be taught to use punishment. Learn how to apply positive reinforcement PROPERLY (ie mechanics, splitting vs lumping, rate of reward, differential reinforcement) before you apply principles you don't fully understand. Yes, severe punishment can permanently suppress behaviours but if you are continually having to give verbal or physical corrections the dog hasn't sufficiently learned the appropriate response. It's actually very inefficient.

For the record my PhD is on human-dog relationships, dog behaviour and welfare, I work with livestock and companion animals and I've trained 100s of dog owners. I have the only Agility Champion Dalmatian in the country, my ESS is a rare example of a positively trained working and competition Gundog and, after the Agility Nationals last week she's now the Novice Agility 400 National Champion. And I still don't think I know enough about the minutiae of training to consider using punishment as part of my methods. Am I a perfect trainer? No freaking way - unfortunately I'm human and had my early dog training influences to overcome. But I know the path I'm on not only gets results but is probably the most FUN I've ever had interacting with dogs.

I really don't like to debate training methods on the Internet as I'd rather spend that time doing other, more constructive things. Seriously, if you think your training method is the "right" way, take video, post it up, be proud of your technique rather than going around in circles. Saves a hell of a lot of time wasting. This is how I train:

...and Bob Baily also said ...'In the modern use of the name CLICKER TRAINER, punishment, especially positive punishment, is "disallowed." I allow myself to use punishment if I believe it is necessary to accomplish the task and if the task merits the use of punishment. I rarely have need of punishment.'...

wrt your comment: ...you are not really recommending that most dog owners shouldn't use a leash?

[Simply Grand]

Today I learned that for some dog owners the only purpose of the leash is to prevent that the dog gets hit by a truck...seriously???

Wait, what the hell are you using it for?

If I'm walking my dog and he's walking nicely by my side then that's exactly the purpose? If something spooks him or distracts him or whatever the entire purpose of the leash is so he doesn't take off into traffic?

Exactly! I could easily walk any of my dogs off leash and keep them with me just by talking to them most of the time but I have leashes on them for the just in case, unexpected situations or in case I'm not 100% on the ball. Same reason I rarely have them off leash in unfenced areas.

[Willem]

Today I learned that for some dog owners the only purpose of the leash is to prevent that the dog gets hit by a truck...seriously???

Wait, what the hell are you using it for?

If I'm walking my dog and he's walking nicely by my side then that's exactly the purpose? If something spooks him or distracts him or whatever the entire purpose of the leash is so he doesn't take off into traffic?

...post #1, fourth paragraph...

[Kavik]

You would like the NDTF course :laugh:

[The Spotted Devil]

Bob Bailey is not against the USE of punishment but rather against its use by the novice trainer. He is an AMAZING trainer and I understand full well when he uses punishment and it's the LAST step after he has trained the animal to be perfectly fluent. And it's usually a life-death situation. He is also a huge fan of Susan Garrett.

By all means use a leash to keep your dog safe (I certainly do). But you can learn a hell of a lot about training if the only thing you have to control your dog is your skills as a trainer. By the way, my pups start learning in the bathroom first...low distraction, high rate of reward - training fundamentals.

And I rarely use a clicker - much more difficult to get it right if you are training precise behaviour.

Edited June 11, 2016 by The Spotted Devil

[Cosmolo]

I'm not sure what your last post is supposed to mean Kavik but as a current lecturer on the NDTF course who has been heavily involved in content changes over the last few years, I'd just like to advise anyone here that the course has seriously evolved and changed in recent times.

I'm a bit tired of debating training techniques so won't weigh in too heavily- Willem, you might be interested in my recent blog post.

http://underdogtraining.com.au/dont-be-a-tool-the-dog-training-equipment-debate-debacle/

I agree with Bob Bailey's position on punishment and novice trainers generally.

[Simply Grand]

Awesome blog post Cosmolo, exactly how I feel about it ????

[silentchild]

Not going to weigh in on the discussion at hand as everybody else has already articulated so well some excellent points (also I hate debating on the internet), but TSD I just wanted to say I've watched your Recallers video like a million times since you first shared it and it never fails to put a HUGE smile on my face every time!! :D I love it and it encapsulates every thing I love about dog training - fun, joy, relationship-based training! I hope your video makes the finals too. :)