French Bulldog Causing Carnage

[corvus]

It is worth bearing in mind that some behavioural trainers work in conjunction with the clients existing vet to get the dog on medication etc. Just because someone is a trainer doesn't mean they can't recommend medication- they just can't prescribe it.

Well... I believe you can get in trouble if the advice you give could be construed as medical advice if you are not a vet. As in, you can be sued. I would not presume to suggest medication. I suggest a client might wish to speak to their vet or a vet behaviourist about medication. I can tell them how it might help, and I can give them an idea of what to expect, but I can't tell them their animal needs medication, or what kind of medication. That is for a vet to say.

You really need some video of the dog's behaviour when they are alone to determine whether it is separation anxiety or not. Some signs of distress may be invisible if you just look at the resultant destruction. It matters when it occurs, where it occurs, and for how long the activity goes on as well as the dog's behaviour before the owner leaves and within half an hour of the owner leaving at least. Context is highly relevant.

[RuralPug]

Im not sure why its been labelled separation anxiety especially when you say she is quite happy to go into her crate. Seems to me that the dog is simply treating the house as if its her kennel so she can go where she wants , mark her turf, do what she wants while you're not there just as she probably did in her kennel at the breeders place. This is akin to leaving a 3 year old toddler at home alone and expecting to come back and all is well. She is throwing herself at the fence because that's probably learned behaviour from being in a pack in a kennel setting.

Ive got some pretty well behaved dogs who I never have to correct while they are in my home but I wouldn't leave any of them locked in my home with free run of the place for 8 hours at a time

To me this is more of a management issue than a fancy name that makes excuses for what is happening.

I agree that sometimes there is a fine line between separation anxiety and boredom destruction, but I did just want to point out that a dog happy to go into a crate while the owner is present doesn't contra-indicate separation anxiety.

I also agree that this might be separation anxiety but really we don't have enough information to be 100% sure from your posts. But you have been given some great advice. I second that she needs to be in a pen or destruction-proof room with plenty of acceptable toys and a baby gate to keep her there while you are not home.

While she is being rehabilitated or trained, as the case may be, it would be wise to let her see, hear and smell your other dog - beds either side of the gate or pen perhaps. If your other dog has never been destructive in the home it is easy to forget that she/he might be joining in some of the games and actually participating in some of the destruction.

[Cosmolo]

Sorry Corvus- that's exactly what I meant. If i believe a dog would benefit from medication i encourage the client so speak to their own vet or vets that i know who have been helpful re: deciding on appropriate medication in the past. What you have described is exactly what i would do- I'm certainly not telling them they need XYZ medication!

[ESCS]

Jane Harper has been a great help with one of my tibbies who has anxiety issues ( presented as DA not separation anxiety) . The vet with GAP (when we were considering adopting a greyhound) once told me that there's often a genetic component to anxiety as well as poor socialisation. She said that it may not be something that will go away but with professional help, we can learn to manage it and provide a better quality of life for both dog and owner. She cautioned me about having unrealistic expectations for our tibbie ( such as being able to take her to cafes, fetes and places with lots of strange dogs). Once I got my head around this, it reduced my own anxiety which in turn benefited my tibbie. Jane really helped us improve our understanding of what was happening for my dog, change my own behaviour/response and put together a management plan. She is such a calm, positive and sensible person that it rubs off on those she works with!! While it's not perfect and we still have bad days ( 7 years on), we have in place a routine that works quite well. Patience, management and routines are now my best friends ( pity it doesn't come naturally to me!). I have to say that I would not take a dog with these issues again much as we love him. It's a huge commitment and responsibility for a very long time as he just needs a lot of management with little room for error or it will be a set back for quite some time.

I believe Dr Cameron Day is a vet behaviourist in Brisbane. I have not used him but a friend told me he was good. Might be worth checking out.

[GEMINI62]

Some frenchies are overboard too.Vit-B in diet can calm them down abit.Good luck with her and so sorry you are having theses problems with her.But very happy you want to try and help her.

[Steph M]

Staffyluv some good suggestions there as with other posters but when I saw your suggestion of chicken necks I was

To the OP take it from one who has had Frenchies for 34 years please DO NOT FEED WHOLE CHICKEN NECKS!!!!!!!!

With the structure of a Frenchie in the head area they are not capable of chewing on and swallowing a chicken neck, they would and do try to swallow it whole, I have heard over the years of quite a few Frenchies choking to death on them.

I feed raw chicken necks to my kids but they are chopped up into bite size pieces and the day they have them for a meal I supervise them.

Marrow bones are fine.

Wow! I have always heard never to touch marrow bones! Interesting...

[Mjosa]

Marrow bones are OK for Frenchies now and again, mine get a big bone sliced through for the marrow to be exposed, once they have eaten that and any meat on the knuckle end it is taken away and binned.

[Staffyluv]

Staffyluv some good suggestions there as with other posters but when I saw your suggestion of chicken necks I was

To the OP take it from one who has had Frenchies for 34 years please DO NOT FEED WHOLE CHICKEN NECKS!!!!!!!!

With the structure of a Frenchie in the head area they are not capable of chewing on and swallowing a chicken neck, they would and do try to swallow it whole, I have heard over the years of quite a few Frenchies choking to death on them.

I feed raw chicken necks to my kids but they are chopped up into bite size pieces and the day they have them for a meal I supervise them.

Marrow bones are fine.

OK.

To the OP, please don't feed your dog chicken necks - I am sure there would another suitable alternative.

My point was more to hide some sort of food around the yard (or where the dog hangs out most of the day), so it gives her something to do while you are out.

Giving her something she is ALLOWED to do, may keep her amused enough to NOT do the things she isn't allowed to do..

I find dogs become troublesome, mostly when they are bored.

[Guest crazydoglady99]

Hey Staffyluv! We've missed you - have you been away?

To the OP - how is everything going?

[Roova]

I keep secateurs in the kitchen and chop chicken necks in to three or four depending on the size. My Frenchie loves them and they aren't a choking hazard that way. :)

[Isabel964]

I really feel for you. Your heart wanted to give a breeding bitch a home. I rescued a 4 month old kelpie- staffy cross that is now 7 months old. She would destroy a lot of things and it took me two months of solid effort to toilet train her. I thought it was never going to happen - but we got there.

You'd think 4 months is very young but those early days and months without the right socialization and basics really affects dogs. Yours being 2 years ..... gosh much much harder. I wish you well and can not more highly recommend a very good behaviourust.

We have come a long way but she is still destroying things though it's getting much better.

Be careful with electric cords!

I take my dog to a well reputed dog training centre Sunday mornings and Wednesday nights. It's helped a lot.

Your dog needs to understand what is ok and what is not.

Yours sounds like potential anxiety and that needs specialist advice.*

You need to restrict what your dog has access to. Not the whole house, not yet.

You would benefit from learning how to set boundaries with your dog.

Crating. Use an iPad or phone to record your dog in the crate when you are gone. Then you can see if she does ok or if she is anxious and stressed. I've read that some dogs are fine in a crate for 8 hours. But if she is stressed that's no good. You might need to hire or buy a device that allows for longer recording time for this exercise.

With my dog she mainly has rubber toys and long toys. They are made from certain material and help her up know what she can chew on. If you give your dog a wide range of toys made of a wide range of materials it may be difficult for her to tell what she can chew and what she can't.

Don't correct/ your dog or tell her off for destituingvyhinfs unless you catch her in the act of doing it.

I honestly know that you need a very good behaviourust. If you don't feel they are a match for your situation, try another ins. All the best.

[juice]

Yep, thought mine was doing good till i accidentally left the door unlocked to my salon yesterday and popped out, she had nudged the door open from the garage side and chewed through the electrical cord of my new heater. Thankfully not plugged in, and a couple of salon towels from the basket.

Never let down your guard :laugh:

[dogbesotted]

I feel for you both and indeed anyone who has a dog who has behavioural issues.

It is a journey and In my experience with foster and failed fosters dog it is sometimes a matter of just quietly pointing them in the right direction.. not being overly effusive with praise and redirecting behaviours that are unacceptable.. sort of being a calming central figure in the dogs world.

I would also consider using DAP diffusres to promote a feeling of wellbeing and safety.

attended a lecture on storm phobia by Dr Cam Day and he recommends that an anxious dog have a safe place and to use DAP there .. he also said that sometimes with a very anxious dog prescription medication is necessary to dull the roar of anxiety enough for training messages to get though.

also maybe read The Cautious Canine by Patricia McConnell gives some excellent advice.

Good Luck

Helen

[Jackie77]

Hi all,

Thank you for your responses I have been reading them eagerly!

We have had a few setbacks. I saved up for a new fence and the very next day she still got out through another fence so she had to go back inside.

I took her to the vet, and am giving her collicalm (something similar from vet). Have crate in laundry/bathroom area open and covered, leaving music on, walking her in the morning. She still chews what is available to her (which I can live with) but she poos and wees EVERYWHERE! which isn't fun coming home to every day! difficult to change this behaviour as I am not there to correct it so can't get cranky with her when I get home.

She has just gone on heat (so cancelled the de sexing visit).

Have had the fence repaired again and am hoping for some wins. I have left her outside today with her crate and music and have walked her.

I started off feeling positive...but the last few days I have to admit have been tough.

I called the behaviourist and because I literally just paid for the fence will have to wait to get the $$ together for this as it is $500.00

Anyhooow, I am sure it will all come together...please send positive vibes my way...could use it.

[Willem]

Hi all,

Thank you for your responses I have been reading them eagerly!

We have had a few setbacks. I saved up for a new fence and the very next day she still got out through another fence so she had to go back inside.

I took her to the vet, and am giving her collicalm (something similar from vet). Have crate in laundry/bathroom area open and covered, leaving music on, walking her in the morning. She still chews what is available to her (which I can live with) but she poos and wees EVERYWHERE! which isn't fun coming home to every day! difficult to change this behaviour as I am not there to correct it so can't get cranky with her when I get home.

She has just gone on heat (so cancelled the de sexing visit).

Have had the fence repaired again and am hoping for some wins. I have left her outside today with her crate and music and have walked her.

I started off feeling positive...but the last few days I have to admit have been tough.

I called the behaviourist and because I literally just paid for the fence will have to wait to get the $$ together for this as it is $500.00

Anyhooow, I am sure it will all come together...please send positive vibes my way...could use it.

...the dog needs training (not necessarily a behaviourist) - if you don't have the time or no one else can train the dog nothing will change! ...a few hours training and advice from a behaviourist will provide you with more knowledge, but you have to invest this knowledge via spending the time and train the dog....there is no substitute for intense training!

Edited June 23, 2016 by Willem

[Jackie77]

Hi all,

Thank you for your responses I have been reading them eagerly!

We have had a few setbacks. I saved up for a new fence and the very next day she still got out through another fence so she had to go back inside.

I took her to the vet, and am giving her collicalm (something similar from vet). Have crate in laundry/bathroom area open and covered, leaving music on, walking her in the morning. She still chews what is available to her (which I can live with) but she poos and wees EVERYWHERE! which isn't fun coming home to every day! difficult to change this behaviour as I am not there to correct it so can't get cranky with her when I get home.

She has just gone on heat (so cancelled the de sexing visit).

Have had the fence repaired again and am hoping for some wins. I have left her outside today with her crate and music and have walked her.

I started off feeling positive...but the last few days I have to admit have been tough.

I called the behaviourist and because I literally just paid for the fence will have to wait to get the $$ together for this as it is $500.00

Anyhooow, I am sure it will all come together...please send positive vibes my way...could use it.

...the dog needs training (not necessarily a behaviourist) - if you don't have the time or no one else can train the dog nothing will change! ...a few hours training and advice from a behaviourist will provide you with more knowledge, but you have to invest this knowledge via spending the time and train the dog....there is no substitute for intense training!

Do you mean intense training ourselves or with a behaviourist?

[_PL_]

Staffyluv some good suggestions there as with other posters but when I saw your suggestion of chicken necks I was

To the OP take it from one who has had Frenchies for 34 years please DO NOT FEED WHOLE CHICKEN NECKS!!!!!!!!

With the structure of a Frenchie in the head area they are not capable of chewing on and swallowing a chicken neck, they would and do try to swallow it whole, I have heard over the years of quite a few Frenchies choking to death on them.

I feed raw chicken necks to my kids but they are chopped up into bite size pieces and the day they have them for a meal I supervise them.

Marrow bones are fine.

Wow! I have always heard never to touch marrow bones! Interesting...

Yeh I can't use and bones with the fatty marrow. It's tempting pancreatitis and makes a lot of my guys vomit. I can only use meaty bones, trimmed of fat either with no access to marrow or with that red honeycomb marrow.

[Willem]

Hi all,

Thank you for your responses I have been reading them eagerly!

We have had a few setbacks. I saved up for a new fence and the very next day she still got out through another fence so she had to go back inside.

I took her to the vet, and am giving her collicalm (something similar from vet). Have crate in laundry/bathroom area open and covered, leaving music on, walking her in the morning. She still chews what is available to her (which I can live with) but she poos and wees EVERYWHERE! which isn't fun coming home to every day! difficult to change this behaviour as I am not there to correct it so can't get cranky with her when I get home.

She has just gone on heat (so cancelled the de sexing visit).

Have had the fence repaired again and am hoping for some wins. I have left her outside today with her crate and music and have walked her.

I started off feeling positive...but the last few days I have to admit have been tough.

I called the behaviourist and because I literally just paid for the fence will have to wait to get the $$ together for this as it is $500.00

Anyhooow, I am sure it will all come together...please send positive vibes my way...could use it.

...the dog needs training (not necessarily a behaviourist) - if you don't have the time or no one else can train the dog nothing will change! ...a few hours training and advice from a behaviourist will provide you with more knowledge, but you have to invest this knowledge via spending the time and train the dog....there is no substitute for intense training!

Do you mean intense training ourselves or with a behaviourist?

the behaviourist will be able to tell you whether the dog suffers also (in addition to the non existent training and education) from anxiety or other underlying issues. From what you described for me it looks more like a neglected dog that was fed over 2 years, but had no further interaction with humans. So what happend is: the dog had to learn by herself where to pee and poo, how to entertain herself etc. and therefore developed her own rules for the last 2 years. No one taught the dog what is wanted and what is unwanted behaviour, hence she just can't know it.

The difference when raising and training a pup is that the unwanted behaviour is addressed and corrected from the beginning, and if done correctly won't manifest in the dog. Therefore it is much easier and less time consuming. Conversely you face the following challenge: you can train your dog in the morning and in the evening, and after a while she will learn to poo outside etc. - when you are around!...but over the day, when she is by herself, she will just do what she did for the last 2 years. She won't generalize that she shouldn't poo / pee inside the house also if she is on her own...and you can't blame her for this.

Hence the training becomes more time consuming and requires much more monitoring. I don't think - assuming that there are no other underlying issues - that the training is especially difficult, it is just that it requires more or less around the clock presence of a trainer. You have to catch up with 2 years lack of training plus you have to erase the manifested unwanted behaviour - and that requires more than half an hour training in the evening and in the morning.

The options you have IMO are:

• intense training more or less around the clock for the next half year (by yourself or someone else), or
  
• kennel in the garden for the time she is on her own - but this means that she might never become a 'house' dog.
  
• rehoming the dog
  

Edited June 23, 2016 by Willem

[Jackie77]

I have just communicated with the breeder who is not willing to take her back. I got her from this website from the adult page. I just want the best for this dog, if that means holding onto to her and putting in the effort that we physically have time for I will. However am starting to wonder if it's a doable task. Am also starting to see what everyone else saw and that is - the breeder passing on this poor dog because of her issues. Feel like a bit of a sucker right now!!!

[Guest crazydoglady99]

Oh Jackie

I'm really sorry if you've been duped. What a shitty situation

I really feel for you.

Edited June 26, 2016 by crazydoglady99