Training At A Club With A Different Philosophy To Me

[The Spotted Devil]

I'm not even going to bother with Willem's post, but I just wanted to quote one of my favourite sayings by Sue Ailsby: "The leash is to keep the animal from getting hit by a truck, not to control, punish or teach."

I saw a really good idea on a trainer I follow, tie a slip knot in the middle of your leash, try not to let it come undone :D

Nice! Wherever I can I play and train with no leash - it was the best thing to get me out of very old habits. My youngster does drag a long line "just in case" as she's very quick and I don't have many safe places to train her. I'm definitely not perfect when I'm walking my 3 dogs from A to B....not easy with a frozen shoulder....but I just keep aiming to improve my skills every day.

[Willem]

I'm not even going to bother with Willem's post, but I just wanted to quote one of my favourite sayings by Sue Ailsby: "The leash is to keep the animal from getting hit by a truck, not to control, punish or teach."

I saw a really good idea on a trainer I follow, tie a slip knot in the middle of your leash, try not to let it come undone :D

Nice! Wherever I can I play and train with no leash - it was the best thing to get me out of very old habits. My youngster does drag a long line "just in case" as she's very quick and I don't have many safe places to train her. I'm definitely not perfect when I'm walking my 3 dogs from A to B....not easy with a frozen shoulder....but I just keep aiming to improve my skills every day.

...of course ...just in case...the suitable methods to get there...(BTW: if you can only catch the end of the long line while your dog is accelerating towards ....lets say a truck, that actually can increase the risk of injuries compared to using just a normal leash - but I'm sure you know this.)

[Two Best Dogs!]

I'm not even going to bother with Willem's post, but I just wanted to quote one of my favourite sayings by Sue Ailsby: "The leash is to keep the animal from getting hit by a truck, not to control, punish or teach."

I saw a really good idea on a trainer I follow, tie a slip knot in the middle of your leash, try not to let it come undone :D

That's a really clever trick for assessing how your LLW is coming along!

[Willem]

I'm not even going to bother with Willem's post, but I just wanted to quote one of my favourite sayings by Sue Ailsby: "The leash is to keep the animal from getting hit by a truck, not to control, punish or teach."

I saw a really good idea on a trainer I follow, tie a slip knot in the middle of your leash, try not to let it come undone :D

That's a really clever trick for assessing how your LLW is coming along!

yep, it is a good exercise, and because this objective is not so easy to achieve it just proves that the method to get there is not force free!

[The Spotted Devil]

I'm not even going to bother with Willem's post, but I just wanted to quote one of my favourite sayings by Sue Ailsby: "The leash is to keep the animal from getting hit by a truck, not to control, punish or teach."

I saw a really good idea on a trainer I follow, tie a slip knot in the middle of your leash, try not to let it come undone :D

Nice! Wherever I can I play and train with no leash - it was the best thing to get me out of very old habits. My youngster does drag a long line "just in case" as she's very quick and I don't have many safe places to train her. I'm definitely not perfect when I'm walking my 3 dogs from A to B....not easy with a frozen shoulder....but I just keep aiming to improve my skills every day.

...of course ...just in case...the suitable methods to get there...(BTW: if you can only catch the end of the long line while your dog is accelerating towards ....lets say a truck, that actually can increase the risk of injuries compared to using just a normal leash - but I'm sure you know this.)

Sure. But that's not what I do. Long line is FAR from ideal and is as much about giving ME confidence.

[Simply Grand]

preventing that any force via the leash is applied to the dog?

Willem

There is a not very subtle difference to the dog applying the force, and the human applying the force via the leash.

But personally I prefer "reward based" rather than "force free". There are times when I use "force" not so much as pushing my dog into doing something but stopping her from doing something. But she's usually the one applying the force. I apply the equal and opposite force in the same way as if I'd tied her to a fence post.

So if a dog launches after something it is not supposed to be chasing - I don't want the owner letting it go.

there is no difference, not even a subtile one - or you would prove Newton (actio = reactio) and Einstein (relativity) wrong, which would be quite interesting.

Fact is that the dog can't apply a force on its own if you don't apply the force on the other end of the leash!

You want to move, but the dog doesn't results in tension in the leash, the dog wants to move, but you don't results in tension in the leash, you both want to move, but in different directions or with different speed results in tension in the leash. The difference between you and the fence post is only that you can move, the post can't.

For the training there is no difference regarding force respectively who applies the force: you and your dog walking in different directions will result in tension in the leash. Saying that it is the dog that applies the force (and that the exercise is therefore 'force free') because he doesn't follow you is ignoring your existence and intention - but you are the reason why there is the tension in the leash! The purpose of the leash / lead is to 'force' the dog to follow the handler respectively to respond to the handler's movements, not the other way round - so who applies the force?

If you want to do a force free training: use a string instead of a leash...(and no collar grab games).

Eta: the problem of the 'force-free trainer army' is that they mistaken the objective of the training for a suitable method to get there.

The difference is in one case the dog can decide if it would rather keep doing what it wants to do (pull to try and get over there) or stop and relieve the pressure on the lead. In the other the dog can either do what it doesn't yet want to do (follow the handler) or continue to feel the pressure of the lead.

And Mrs RB did specifically say that she doesn't claim force free. She (and I) go for reward based training, aiming to make what the handler wants and what the dog wants to do the same thing, eliminating the need for that second scenario where the dog has to do what it doesn't want to do or be jerked by the leash.

[JulesP]

If a handler is going lots of jerking then they are doing it wrong. They aren't correctly properly the first time.

Physically placing a dog in a position should also not cause any distress to the animal.

What you are describing is bad training.

To go some where with a different training philosophy is going to take a fair bit of back bone. If you are in any way sensitive don't go. I personally wouldn't train at a club that has such a different philosophy to me. It is bad enough when there are elements you don't want to do.

[Willem]

If a handler is going lots of jerking then they are doing it wrong. They aren't correctly properly the first time.

agree.

Physically placing a dog in a position should also not cause any distress to the animal.

agree, but if your dog trusts you, physical supportive force doesn't have to be stressful.

What you are describing is bad training.

agree partly - if 'bad training' refers to the jerking and stressful placing: I agree; however wrt SG's first post I'm not so sure whether it is just the different trainings philosophy with the employment of force that influenced the evaluation.

To go some where with a different training philosophy is going to take a fair bit of back bone. If you are in any way sensitive don't go. I personally wouldn't train at a club that has such a different philosophy to me. It is bad enough when there are elements you don't want to do.

agree. Dogs sense whether the dog owner is confident in what he/she is doing and this is a requirement for quality training. If there are too many unspoken irritations it will affect the training negatively, no matter whether it is a 'good' or 'bad' trainer. Another option is just visit the training from time to time without dog, just to pickup some useful ideas.

Eta: spelling...

Edited June 11, 2016 by Willem

[Willem]

preventing that any force via the leash is applied to the dog?

Willem

There is a not very subtle difference to the dog applying the force, and the human applying the force via the leash.

But personally I prefer "reward based" rather than "force free". There are times when I use "force" not so much as pushing my dog into doing something but stopping her from doing something. But she's usually the one applying the force. I apply the equal and opposite force in the same way as if I'd tied her to a fence post.

So if a dog launches after something it is not supposed to be chasing - I don't want the owner letting it go.

there is no difference, not even a subtile one - or you would prove Newton (actio = reactio) and Einstein (relativity) wrong, which would be quite interesting.

Fact is that the dog can't apply a force on its own if you don't apply the force on the other end of the leash!

You want to move, but the dog doesn't results in tension in the leash, the dog wants to move, but you don't results in tension in the leash, you both want to move, but in different directions or with different speed results in tension in the leash. The difference between you and the fence post is only that you can move, the post can't.

For the training there is no difference regarding force respectively who applies the force: you and your dog walking in different directions will result in tension in the leash. Saying that it is the dog that applies the force (and that the exercise is therefore 'force free') because he doesn't follow you is ignoring your existence and intention - but you are the reason why there is the tension in the leash! The purpose of the leash / lead is to 'force' the dog to follow the handler respectively to respond to the handler's movements, not the other way round - so who applies the force?

If you want to do a force free training: use a string instead of a leash...(and no collar grab games).

Eta: the problem of the 'force-free trainer army' is that they mistaken the objective of the training for a suitable method to get there.

The difference is in one case the dog can decide if it would rather keep doing what it wants to do (pull to try and get over there) or stop and relieve the pressure on the lead. In the other the dog can either do what it doesn't yet want to do (follow the handler) or continue to feel the pressure of the lead.

And Mrs RB did specifically say that she doesn't claim force free. She (and I) go for reward based training, aiming to make what the handler wants and what the dog wants to do the same thing, eliminating the need for that second scenario where the dog has to do what it doesn't want to do or be jerked by the leash.

the dog has always the choice to relieve the pressure by following the handler - however, the dog might need some help to recognize this respectively to make the right choice. The built up of tension and relieve of tension in the leash is like a communication between dog and handler, but they both have to speak this language, and learning this language needs some time and assistance respectively the right tools. IMO leash pulling is one of the bad behaviours that is very easy to address - nevertheless a lot of dog owners 'prefer' to get dragged behind their dogs instead of putting some serious work in it to stop it.

[Simply Grand]

What you are describing is bad training.

agree partly - if 'bad training' refers to the jerking and stressful placing: I agree; however wrt SG's first post I'm not so sure whether it is just the different trainings philosophy with the employment of force that influenced the evaluation.

What do you mean?

[Willem]

What you are describing is bad training.

agree partly - if 'bad training' refers to the jerking and stressful placing: I agree; however wrt SG's first post I'm not so sure whether it is just the different trainings philosophy with the employment of force that influenced the evaluation.

What do you mean?

as I already mentioned the description you gave of the training seems to be similar to the training I experience in our club, however based on the not so detailed information you provided (that's not meant as criticism) 'similar' could be 'very similar' or 'less similar'...and my judgment about whether it is really a not so good training depends on the level of similarity E.g.

1. you mentioned that you watched different classes, so I assume the classes were led by different instructors and my question would be if they all showed the same - from your point of view - negative handling of the dogs?
   
2. wrt 'jerking': my expectation is that the higher the class, the less force should be required; for me it wouldn't seem right if there was a lot of 'jerking' going on in class 3, class 3 should actually allow most of the exercises without leash and the leash should be used here more or less only to prevent run offs (which can still happen sometimes when training recalls). Also there shouldn't be any physical force required to get a dog to sit, drop and stand - a dog not able to perform this simple task on hand signal or verbal cue shouldn't be in class 3 (except there are medical conditions that would prevent e.g. a sit).
   
3. Conversely I wouldn't be too much bothered about appropriate applied leash force in class 1 (whether it's 'jerking' or 'just a tug' depends likely on the viewer); it also depends heavily on the type of dog: for some boofheads jerking is just a tug - for other dogs it is a pain inflicting physical correction. If this is not recognized by the owner I would expect that the instructor would point this out and would give the particular owner the right advice.
   
4. wrt collars: again, a pinch collar (I'm actually not sure whether they are allowed in our club - have to ask) might be justifiable in class 1 or beginner, but in class 3 every dog should be trainable with normal collar.
   
5. The obedience level associated with the different classes should be clear recognizable IMO.
   

From your description I got the impression that all the classes looked the same for you, and I have some doubts that this was really the case as this would be - IMO - a really bad trainings performance. Hence I took into consideration (I might be wrong here, please correct me and don't take it personal) that you might have been slightly biased when noticing a few things that didn't comply with your understanding of the training you wanted.

[Kavik]

I think if you want to train positively and the club uses physical corrections that you don't want to use, it would be very difficult to train there. I know your options for clubs and classes may be limited . It is difficult enough even when the club is positive but wants to train things differently to the way you want to, much less if they have a totally different training philosophy.

[Simply Grand]

What you are describing is bad training.

agree partly - if 'bad training' refers to the jerking and stressful placing: I agree; however wrt SG's first post I'm not so sure whether it is just the different trainings philosophy with the employment of force that influenced the evaluation.

What do you mean?

as I already mentioned the description you gave of the training seems to be similar to the training I experience in our club, however based on the not so detailed information you provided (that's not meant as criticism) 'similar' could be 'very similar' or 'less similar'...and my judgment about whether it is really a not so good training depends on the level of similarity E.g.

1. you mentioned that you watched different classes, so I assume the classes were led by different instructors and my question would be if they all showed the same - from your point of view - negative handling of the dogs?
   
2. wrt 'jerking': my expectation is that the higher the class, the less force should be required; for me it wouldn't seem right if there was a lot of 'jerking' going on in class 3, class 3 should actually allow most of the exercises without leash and the leash should be used here more or less only to prevent run offs (which can still happen sometimes when training recalls). Also there shouldn't be any physical force required to get a dog to sit, drop and stand - a dog not able to perform this simple task on hand signal or verbal cue shouldn't be in class 3 (except there are medical conditions that would prevent e.g. a sit).
   
3. Conversely I wouldn't be too much bothered about appropriate applied leash force in class 1 (whether it's 'jerking' or 'just a tug' depends likely on the viewer); it also depends heavily on the type of dog: for some boofheads jerking is just a tug - for other dogs it is a pain inflicting physical correction. If this is not recognized by the owner I would expect that the instructor would point this out and would give the particular owner the right advice.
   
4. wrt collars: again, a pinch collar (I'm actually not sure whether they are allowed in our club - have to ask) might be justifiable in class 1 or beginner, but in class 3 every dog should be trainable with normal collar.
   
5. The obedience level associated with the different classes should be clear recognizable IMO.
   

From your description I got the impression that all the classes looked the same for you, and I have some doubts that this was really the case as this would be - IMO - a really bad trainings performance. Hence I took into consideration (I might be wrong here, please correct me and don't take it personal) that you might have been slightly biased when noticing a few things that didn't comply with your understanding of the training you wanted.

Ok, fair enough, thanks for clarifying.

My first post was a very quick summary of the things making a bit uncomfortable about training a the club, not a blow by blow description of everything I saw, heard and thought while observing mainly the puppy/beginner class and the the level 3 class (as they were the closest) I anticipate going into for an hour.

Yes there were differences between the activities and the instructors in each class but I think I've adequately explained throughout the thread why I feel the club as a whole has a different training philosophy to me. From what you've said your club may well have a different philosophy to me also so I may have the same concerns I have now if I had visited your club the other night.

The thread has changed a bit, as they do, into a discussion about different training approaches, which you are continuing in your other thread, and that's fine, but how different individuals perceive the level of physical force used and what does and doesn't constitute force to different people doesn't change the face that the club's philosophy is different to mine.

[Simply Grand]

I met someone at the park today who has trained at the club and had the same concerns, she got into the agility side with them and said that the training for that is much more focussed on positivity and rewards.

I guess I'm hoping that if we can pretty quickly progress to trialling level where it's more individually working on what you need to than just following the instructors through a class I will benefit from being at the club.

I'm not at all worried about being pressured to change my methods to something either Quinn or I are uncomfortable with, because I just won't, and I'm not interested in arguing with the instructors or trying to change their minds if they are set in their ways, it just depends on whether they are going to be questioning me at every turn.

[JulesP]

Is your dog good? It is hard for anyone to argue with you when your dog is working well :)

[Simply Grand]

She is pretty good, from what I saw of the other dogs in the class we'll be able to keep up. I haven't done much formal training with her for ages and ages so I need to practice some more to get her there but she is a fast learner and she loves training so I'm hoping they won't have any grounds to say how I train doesn't work!

Edited June 11, 2016 by Simply Grand

[aussielover]

I honestly wouldn't do it.

There are very few group training situations where the dog will learn to competition heel (at least the way I would like my dog to do it- animated, happy and attentive). For a beginner dog even 1 minute of "heeling" is too much. Additionally do you want to set your dog up for failure by having other dogs, other people etc distracting them (at best) and actually scaring them or giving them a bad experience at worst.

Most group classes last for an hour and there are very few beginner dogs that can maintain the level of focus and precision that I personally desire, training for that length of time.

Your money would be better spent on an online course.

I would personally not go into a group unless my dog was already working reliably at home and with some distraction.

Once you think your dog is ready for trialling or working at a good level, joining an advanced group (ideally a trialling group if available) may be of some benefit.

Good luck!

Edited June 20, 2016 by aussielover

[Nanoosh]

Sounds like my local club. While my girl is no where near the level of your fur baby, (in fact she's dog reactive), I found that the method of training was a) a little mean for my liking and b) not accomodating to her and her issue. The trainer just looked at me like I was a bad dog owner and spoke down to me. I went to two sessions and then decided to try training on my own as I wasn't comfortable there. It's a shame really, I wanted my girl to get some socialising done so that she might calm down! Instead I was made to feel like an idiot.

Go with your gut! Your dog will thank you for it xx

[Simply Grand]

Thanks everyone for the comments :) turns out I haven't gone back because 1) I can't find Quinn's vax cert and haven't gotten around to contacting her vet in Canberra to get a copy and 2) have been busy with stuff and now have foster dog Molly so time is limited.

It's actually interesting working with Molly, who is an adult female 30kg mix who has some stubborn bull breed in her, compulsion (trying to physically move her) just doesn't work, she plants her butt and that's it but given that I need to move her around to keep her separate from my dogs (I have another thread that talks a bit more about her) I NEED to be able to get her to where I want her to be and rewarding what I want from her and giving her consistency and patience is working really well and she is responding beautifully to it. Plus it's growing her confidence and showing her that she has choice and control over her environment. There is still a LOT of management going on to set her up for success but she has come out of her shell so much, and is even recalling enthusiastically after only a week and a bit.