Willem Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 1. Going to get frustrated and distressed watching all this; and 2. Going to piss off instructors by disagreeing with them and not doing things their way. I did both of these things at my first club. And eventually they booted all the reward based trainers off their committee so we all left. It's made things a bit cramped at the agility club. I get quite upset when I see other people "correcting" their dog by scolding it, or yanking it round. And I don't mean when the dog gets to the end of the lead - not following - I mean that sharp yank on the neck. I've seen more than one *instructor* grab their dog (or worse - someone else's dog" by the choke chain and lift it off the ground because - "Dog knows what it is supposed to be doing". Maybe - but you don't. So I can't train around people who are violent with their dogs. There is always another way to get what you want. And yes - I pissed off a lot of instructors. They had a self destructive cycle among the instructors - the instructors that are in the instructor sub club are not beholden to the club president or committee other than the "chief instructor" who is not accountable to anyone except the other instructors. So they only recruit like minded instructors and keep others (reward based / force free trainers) out. The only weapon we really have is to beat the pants off them repeatedly in competition - which a significant number of reward based trainers are. Change is slow. ...does this mean that these trainers don't use a leash at all or a leash that is so thin that it will break when the smallest tension is applied thus preventing that any force via the leash is applied to the dog? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dididog Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 I also had this problem at my last club. While they were fine with me using toys and treats with very few exceptions all of the trainers were very much into jerking dogs around, manipulating them into position and punishing quite aggressively when they did something naughty. I thought the same as you, that I know what works for Didi and I'll just do that and tell the trainer I don't want to do something they suggest but it got extremely hard for me to block out all the awful training going on around me. Not just with the instructors but the way the others in the class would yell and physically abuse their dog really upset me and was starting to upset Didi as strangers yelling around her stressed her out a bit. I lasted 8 months there. It was good in the sense we got to practice training around other dogs and under distraction but I was starting to get worked up so much at the prospect of going and it was making me extremely anxious and I would spend most of class working off to the side and playing and only joined the group when it was my turn to do an exercise so I just stopped showing up. If you think you can remain relatively disconnected and just use it as a place to practice then I'd say try it out for a bit but I at least think it's pretty damaging to your wellbeing to consistently see dogs being mistreated/abused and not really being able to say anything about it. ...'manipulating them into position'...you mention this in context with 'quite aggressive punishment', why?...what makes 'manipulating a dog to sit, drop or to stand' such a bad, cruel exercise? ... I said the trainers were into manipulating dogs into position AND used aggressive punishments... maybe you should actually read what someone says before you decide to pick it apart??? But I still don't think yanking up on the collar while jamming down on the butt (which is what they would make every beginner do if your dog couldn't sit on word command) is a particularly fair or good way to train a position, neither is pulling a dog up by it's collar from a drop into a stand or a sit. I wouldn't say for the most part (apart from when people are being aggressive and forceful with their yanking and pushing and shoving) that using physical touch to show a dog a position is necessarily cruel but being forceful and inflicting pain to do so definitely is. And since most of the trainers at my club really weren't giving great advice and most dogs weren't being worked with food or toy rewards, a lot of the dogs would still not understand the positions, the owners would get frustrated and then they'd take it out on the dog when manipulating them into position when they didn't respond the first time or broke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simply Grand Posted June 10, 2016 Author Share Posted June 10, 2016 It takes approximately 40 minutes to drive from one end of Canberra to the other. There are three obedience clubs that I know of. I would recommend travel to the one that best suits your training style. Things were a lot more positive when I was involved with a local club years back. I hope its not that one. I'm not in Canberra anymore HW. The clubs there were very good in my experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simply Grand Posted June 10, 2016 Author Share Posted June 10, 2016 (edited) I'm not going to get into one of the semantics discussions Willem enjoys so much, but there are a few aspects to why the methods we're referring to don't sit well with me. I certainly didn't see anyone smacking their dogs, shouting at them or otherwise abusing them at this club, please don't think that. But jerking on a puppy's neck cannot be comfortable and could easily scare and even injure the puppy. Not to mention what I believe it does to the bond of trust and communication between dog and handler. Same with pushing a dog's back end down into a sit and pulling a dog into a drop by the collar, and the jerking the dog's head around by the head collar on each about turn that I mentioned previously. Aside from the potential for physical and mental damage, the other thing about physically moving the dog or using touch cues (eg one person was cueing the sit on halt using a tap on the dog's back) is that it seems counter productive if the aim is obedience trialling. You're going to have to end up not using the physical cues so why not just start off with rewarding the dog for putting itself into the position you want? It doesn't bother me if people do it I guess, as long as they don't get rough if they get frustrated, I just think it's confusing for both dog and handler. Edited June 10, 2016 by Simply Grand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 Completely agree with you SG! I will put this out there - firstly I suggest you video your training and keep training notes but secondly, please feel free to friend me on FB or send me links to videos. More than happy to provide feedback. My videos on You Tube will demonstrate how I train. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simply Grand Posted June 10, 2016 Author Share Posted June 10, 2016 (edited) Here's an anecdote I just remembered that I think is relevant to this discussion (which has gone slightly OT from my own original topic, because I wasn't and am not planning to try and have these kind of discussions at the training club, especially during classes): I was in Aldi the other day, which is well set up for kids to run amok in as many will know, not having the traditional aisles, and I passed a lady with her three young sons all with a hand on the trolley. She said to them "thank you boys for doing the right thing and holding the trolley". Smiles from the boys and then they started talking to each other, not being naughty or particularly annoying, still holding the trolley, but apparently not exactly what mum wanted because she then told them several times in a slightly raised voice to be quiet. Now I'm in no position the make any judgement on this woman, and I certainly don't think she did anything wrong, but I thought to myself wow she had such a good result going there with three young boys all holding the trolley, not running around or touching things, and yes she acknowledged it but then rather than making it a fun happy experience for all of them that they had achieved this great result she went straight onto saying (paraphrasing) "but you're not being 100% how I want you to so here's an unpleasant consequence". To me that's what it's like to praise or even treat a puppy for walking on the left on a loose lead and looking at you when that is new to them, but then jerk them by the neck when they look off at something else the next moment and aren't quite as close as they were. You don't need the second bit! You can get the results from the first bit, so why add in the unpleasant consequence? If that makes any sense Edited June 10, 2016 by Simply Grand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simply Grand Posted June 10, 2016 Author Share Posted June 10, 2016 Completely agree with you SG! I will put this out there - firstly I suggest you video your training and keep training notes but secondly, please feel free to friend me on FB or send me links to videos. More than happy to provide feedback. My videos on You Tube will demonstrate how I train. Awesome, thanks TSD! I will definitely take you up on that as we progress, I actually think Quinn will come along in leaps and bounds when I get my act together, she loves training and is so responsive. I bought a new clicker today (no idea where my previous ones have gone in various moves) and I'm going to concentrate on using that with her on our own, because I think I need the precision to show her what I want, then use the classes as practice and proofing, unless/until it stresses me or her out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 Completely agree with you SG! I will put this out there - firstly I suggest you video your training and keep training notes but secondly, please feel free to friend me on FB or send me links to videos. More than happy to provide feedback. My videos on You Tube will demonstrate how I train. Awesome, thanks TSD! I will definitely take you up on that as we progress, I actually think Quinn will come along in leaps and bounds when I get my act together, she loves training and is so responsive. I bought a new clicker today (no idea where my previous ones have gone in various moves) and I'm going to concentrate on using that with her on our own, because I think I need the precision to show her what I want, then use the classes as practice and proofing, unless/until it stresses me or her out. Ok - first bit of advice. Be wary of the clicker. It's awesome but it's power means that you can inadvertently reinforce the wrong behaviour PARTICULARLY if you are training a very precise behaviour such as heel work. Just be conscious that your timing needs to be perfect. I rarely use it nowadays - verbal markers and PARTY work just fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 And yes. Completely get where you're coming from with the anecdote :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simply Grand Posted June 10, 2016 Author Share Posted June 10, 2016 Hmm, yes I definitely need to learn more about my body language and timing and hand signals or I will confuse her. She's so used to focussing on my eyes to guide her on what I want her to do in more "real life" situations that I have some work to do to get her sitting straight at heel so I was thinking of working on that first with the clicker, shaping basically, with a click and big reward when we get her nice and straight. Because I won't be yanking her around in class when she isn't straight, that's for sure! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 (edited) Love it! Great plan! Mark action and reward position :) Edited June 10, 2016 by The Spotted Devil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silentchild Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 I am another one who trains mostly by myself. :) I am pretty much a fully Fenzi trainer LOL, although I have also done SG and a few others. The online communities are great and Denise has been an incredible mentor to me, going far above and beyond and helps me far more than any trainer I have trained with in the flesh. In the rare occasion I need training in a group setting, like TSD I catch up with like minded people. My dog is very soft and she would not cope in an environment like the one you described, and I would get far too annoyed and frustrated at other people. If you are the kind of person who can do your own thing and not let what others say or do bother you in the slightest then you'll probably be fine, and if your dog can also handle that. Unfortunately me and my dog are not like that at all LOL. My girl has gone from a dog who was scared even of people walking past loudly to a demo dog performing complex behaviours in busy, noisy crowds with countless noises and distractions. Instilling confidence and joy in her has been key, and I doubt I would have been able to do it in a club setting where I am very self-conscious of myself and how others are training. Online training has worked wonders for us. I have attended clubs before, quite good ones too, but they are just not my cup of tea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 SC you are a shining example!!! Loving your work xxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simply Grand Posted June 10, 2016 Author Share Posted June 10, 2016 (edited) It's sounding like I'm going to need to get onto this online stuff! I have knowledge (ok not huge amounts but more than the average joe) about learning theory and general life skills, behaviour modification type stuff but the precision of things like "how do I convey that I want her to sit straight at heel without losing the focus or the automatic sit" is where I need people to bounce off. I'm excited ???? ETA - SC I am not at all the kind of person that can ignore what everyone is doing around me, I suspect that will be what doesn't work at this club. I can say I'm not doing that, and you're not doing it to my dog, but I think watching others be told to do stuff I don't like will drive me nuts, and I'm not so great at biting my tongue sometimes ???? We'll see though, I'll give it a shot. Edited June 10, 2016 by Simply Grand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Rusty Bucket Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 preventing that any force via the leash is applied to the dog? Willem There is a not very subtle difference to the dog applying the force, and the human applying the force via the leash. But personally I prefer "reward based" rather than "force free". There are times when I use "force" not so much as pushing my dog into doing something but stopping her from doing something. But she's usually the one applying the force. I apply the equal and opposite force in the same way as if I'd tied her to a fence post. So if a dog launches after something it is not supposed to be chasing - I don't want the owner letting it go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simply Grand Posted June 10, 2016 Author Share Posted June 10, 2016 Yep, exactly my thoughts too Mrs RB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 (edited) preventing that any force via the leash is applied to the dog? Willem There is a not very subtle difference to the dog applying the force, and the human applying the force via the leash. But personally I prefer "reward based" rather than "force free". There are times when I use "force" not so much as pushing my dog into doing something but stopping her from doing something. But she's usually the one applying the force. I apply the equal and opposite force in the same way as if I'd tied her to a fence post. So if a dog launches after something it is not supposed to be chasing - I don't want the owner letting it go. there is no difference, not even a subtile one - or you would prove Newton (actio = reactio) and Einstein (relativity) wrong, which would be quite interesting. Fact is that the dog can't apply a force on its own if you don't apply the force on the other end of the leash! You want to move, but the dog doesn't results in tension in the leash, the dog wants to move, but you don't results in tension in the leash, you both want to move, but in different directions or with different speed results in tension in the leash. The difference between you and the fence post is only that you can move, the post can't. For the training there is no difference regarding force respectively who applies the force: you and your dog walking in different directions will result in tension in the leash. Saying that it is the dog that applies the force (and that the exercise is therefore 'force free') because he doesn't follow you is ignoring your existence and intention - but you are the reason why there is the tension in the leash! The purpose of the leash / lead is to 'force' the dog to follow the handler respectively to respond to the handler's movements, not the other way round - so who applies the force? If you want to do a force free training: use a string instead of a leash...(and no collar grab games). Eta: the problem of the 'force-free trainer army' is that they mistaken the objective of the training for a suitable method to get there. Edited June 10, 2016 by Willem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silentchild Posted June 11, 2016 Share Posted June 11, 2016 (edited) I'm not even going to bother with Willem's post, but I just wanted to quote one of my favourite sayings by Sue Ailsby: "The leash is to keep the animal from getting hit by a truck, not to control, punish or teach." eta: Thanks TSD!! :) Edited June 11, 2016 by silentchild Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LisaCC Posted June 11, 2016 Share Posted June 11, 2016 I'm not even going to bother with Willem's post, but I just wanted to quote one of my favourite sayings by Sue Ailsby: "The leash is to keep the animal from getting hit by a truck, not to control, punish or teach." I saw a really good idea on a trainer I follow, tie a slip knot in the middle of your leash, try not to let it come undone :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted June 11, 2016 Share Posted June 11, 2016 (edited) http://fenzidogsportsacademy.com/index.php/courses/8524 .... nice picture :D Eta:...and ....surprise, surprise...the equipment required inlcudes ... A leash and a buckle collar, or a PLAIN harness... Edited June 11, 2016 by Willem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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