Training At A Club With A Different Philosophy To Me

[Simply Grand]

This is part debrief for me, part asking for other people's experience...

I want to get back into obedience with Quinn and hopefully get to trialling and at least CCD/CD stage. We have done some lower level obedience at a club before we moved, and progressed somewhat just practising ourselves but have a way to go before trialling.

Tonight I went along to the local community obedience club, there is only the one here, and chatted to them and watched the classes. The lady I spoke to was nice and helpful, she explained how they work and everything and was very welcoming. She also explained that different instructors have different approaches, which I know is how it works at these clubs and that's fine.

I asked about using treats for rewards and she said that's fine. We can work on flat collar, check chain or head collar but not harness, and no clickers. That is all fine, we'll do flat collar and verbal marker.

My concern is I watched the classes for the hour and at all the levels that I could observe there was a lot of emphasis on physical manipulation of the dogs and very little on mark & reward.

Most dogs were on check chains, including in the puppy class, and many of the others on head collars and students were encouraged to check often, pull the dogs around when heeling (on both checks and head collars ), physically cue/place dogs into position and use harsh verbal "GET DOWN" "NO" "STAY" type commands. Praise and affection were encouraged as rewards after exercises were completed but only after using the physical stuff to do the exercises in the first place.

I'm confident enough in saying 'no I won't be doing that' with my own dog, and even with suggesting other things to others if the circumstances arise, but I'm worried that I'm 1. Going to get frustrated and distressed watching all this; and 2. Going to piss off instructors by disagreeing with them and not doing things their way.

Any experiences / suggestions on how to deal with this?

Edited June 9, 2016 by Simply Grand

[The Spotted Devil]

I honestly wouldn't do it unless I chose to use it as a distraction opportunity. I find those sorts of environments unhelpful and joy-less and would much rather do online training classes and catch up with like-minded people.

[Simply Grand]

Hmm, the trouble is I don't know many people here, let alone like minded ones! On line is an option when I can sort out better internet access I suppose.

I didn't always see eye to eye with everyone at the club in Canberra but comparing to this they were definitely more open to modern thinking.

The old "never let your pup win in a game of tug or they've won the war" came out in the puppy class here ????

[The Spotted Devil]

Hmm, the trouble is I don't know many people here, let alone like minded ones! On line is an option when I can sort out better internet access I suppose.

I didn't always see eye to eye with everyone at the club in Canberra but comparing to this they were definitely more open to modern thinking.

The old "never let your pup win in a game of tug or they've won the war" came out in the puppy class here ????

I hope you can get your internet up and running soon! Anything Fenzi is very affordable at Bronze - a great online community. SG is a great investment but the initial outlay can be expensive plus it's not really what you're after. I do the vast majority of training on my own too.

Edited June 9, 2016 by The Spotted Devil

[bridgie_cat]

certainly done this - same situation being in a small town with 1 club where old methods are still used.

I think it is still nice if it is a well run class re the exercises done and the proofing ideas and opportunities it presents - as long as you are happy using shaping and luring for the various exercises you will need to teach (obviously if you need help teaching exercises you are likely to be given the correction method of doing so!). I find I really need to still have that regular class to keep me training and giving me ideas of what to train next etc.

I found it best to quietly excel with an enthusiastic food trained dog in this situation, rather than offer too much in the way of advice or correcting the instructors... bound to lead to conflict or annoyance. If asked - then yes - say what you are doing. Otherwise quietly train your own way and do the same exercises the class does, but better ;) . Should be fine :)

You will have to decide yourself if you are happy to be around others training with the old method. It probably depends how severe the corrections are for me personally, and whether the class is otherwise well run, as to how happy I am to stay in said situation.

Good luck with it all - it's a tough one if that is all that's on offer!

[LisaCC]

I had the option last year of two clubs like that, one better than the other (allowed me to bring my clicker but not reward with toys) or nothing. Went with nothing. Went to the slightly better one for one session and it was just dull and boring, and people frustrated at their dogs doing drills. Left less than half way. I don't want my dog to think training is boring, I think that's super important, especially if you are going to aim for competition.

[Diva]

Sounds like it depends on your own level of self control, only you know your threshold. As long as I was allowed to do my training my way it would be doable for me, but if you think you will be driven to intervene probably better to stick to on line.

[Simply Grand]

Thanks guys :) I think I will give it a go, like bridgie_cat says I will get further if I have a class to go to each week. And I do like to get different views on things and find what works for me, in this case not really with training the behaviours in the dog but in learning what I need to do re body language, trial rules etc.

I think it will come down to whether the instructors let me do it how we do it or not. I like bridgie_cat's approach of do what we do and do it well, and explain if asked, otherwise just get on with it.

I will have to see how it goes with my frustration levels with watching others be told to do the physical stuff...

[Simply Grand]

Also, please everyone keep sharing, it's good to hear what people think ????

[OSoSwift]

I did exactly this.

I had my ideas and philosophies. I asked if I could use clicker and food. Food no issue clicker only if it didn't annoy the other dogs.

I went in the first class, then trained on the periphery. I quietly did my thing, only giving advice if asked. Had a few people become interested and started training with me and using clickers. Some of the older established didn't like that too much but we continued on.

We started traveling and gaining some passes and titles, more people became interested in operant conditioning and rewards based training and clicker. Over time there became a gradual shift however some were staunchly no clicker.

The vast majority shifted to positive reinforcement even if they didn't really understand the philosophies.

I still continued to pay my membership and train on the periphery and use the group of dogs for distraction training and used their agility gear. Win win for me :)

[Papillon Kisses]

A different opinion: my dog would find it extremely stressful to be in an environment where verbal and physical punishments were used on other dogs, even if no such punishments were used on him.

Consider whether you want your dog to be in such a stressful, scary and joyless environment.

If you do go, make sure no one ever uses your dog as a training example as you can't control what they may do (they may not listen to your instructions).

[Weasels]

A different opinion: my dog would find it extremely stressful to be in an environment where verbal and physical punishments were used on other dogs, even if no such punishments were used on him.

Consider whether you want your dog to be in such a stressful, scary and joyless environment.

If you do go, make sure no one ever uses your dog as a training example as you can't control what they may do (they may not listen to your instructions).

Yes this was the clincher for me. I tried out a club in Adelaide that was like this and it just stressed out my dogs too much having people yelling and pulling chains right behind them while heeling in a circle. Watching people being told to yank their tiny puppies around and getting told to punish my naturally obedient worker for not doing something she'd never been taught to do was crap too, but the effect it had on my dogs who normally love training was the deciding factor in never going back.

Edit: having said that, they did really well at a mixed-philosophy club in WA because the location was bigger and they did heeling in a row instead of circles so were less affected by what others were doing

Edited June 9, 2016 by Weasels

[Willem]

@OP:...if you have other ideas and philosophies you would like to discuss with the instructors during the training I think it is not a good idea to give it a go.

To put this into some context, the training in our club seems to be similar to what you described: it is based on positive reinforcements (praise, treats, tug with toys as reward), but it is not force free as leash corrections are used to prevent dogs from running away or ensure they walk in the same direction with the owner. They also teach 'NO' - IMO a very helpful command as it gives the dog a clear cue about what is the wrong choice. There is never brutal force, no scolding, kicking or beating during the training classes (not allowed or accepted) and the corrections via the leash are applied - IMO - with appropriate force depending on the size / weight of the dog. Different owners when giving the cues will sound harsher or more friendly, but the focus is always on fun!

While the instructors might be happy to discuss different philosophies I can tell you my dog - and likely other dogs in her group too - would be pretty upset about ongoing discussions. They love the training and they want to earn their rewards - there are brief discussions with questions from the dog owners and explanations from the instructors, but if it takes too long respectively the break between the exercises are too long my dog tells me straight away via her 'I'm bored barking': she wants to exercise and earns her rewards!

For passing and heeling exercises the goal is always loose leash walking, but if a dog owner wouldn't use the leash if required to prevent his/her dog from jumping on my dog during a passing exercise I would look for another partner for this exercise - nevertheless if my dog would get distracted by the other dog as it jumps on her she would miss the chance to earn a treat, so again she wouldn't be amused.

There are all kind of breeds in this group (she is in class 3 now, approx. 15 dogs on average attend the weekly training in this class - there might be 30-40 dogs in this class in total), from German Shepard to toy poodle, and they all have fun with the employed trainings philosophy. It is amazing seeing them switching from play mode (most of them get a good run before the training) into training mode, all keen to exercise. Some owners do clicker training at home, but IMO during the sessions verbal markers and praise are the better option as it is easier for the dogs to recognize when it comes from the particular owner.

I highly recommend this kind of training, but only if it doesn't collide with the own trainings philosophy. If it doesn't feel right for you - and your dog will likely sense it - it won't be a good trainings environment for your dog and the other dogs. Are online courses an option?...while they can be very informative, I don't believe they can be a substitute for the interactions between other dogs and owners in a real obedience class.

Edited June 9, 2016 by Willem

[Two Best Dogs!]

I do what bridgie does when a trainer rotates around who is truely at odds with what I do. I have put my foot down firmly once and went to another trainer for back up. That was the man handling for stand for exam and less than 2 weeks later we finally started progressing with it. I rarely man handle into position, it's confuses and scares my dog and makes her resist. So I lure or shape instead at class.

I don't take my clicker simply because some of the other dogs are clicker trained so I don't want to distract them. I stick to verbal then and if anyone asks I clarify we use a clicker usually for new commands.

For other things I am at odds with I continue our way. I think the trainers are realising we are a "special" case where some things can not be done some ways. Thankfully all mine seem willing to ask questions and encourage doing what works best!

Edit. To clarify. I can manhandle my dog, but when it comes to position changing it usually confuses her so she doesn't make the connection that I want her in a specific pose!

And my corrections are simply a verbal "try again" marker or a loud oi. I try not to do collar corrections and would never do it with a head halter. But I admit I have gotten frustrated and tried that way in the moment. Much better I walk us off to cool down and try again as when I am considering that she is too far gone (excite or scared) to listen anyway.

Edit 2: my class is no where near so bad as to be upsetting to be in in regards to watching others or teachers. There is a preference for praise over corrections and corrections to only be used occasionally. To my relief.

Edited June 10, 2016 by Thistle the dog

[Simply Grand]

Thistle, I immediately thought of you guys when I was watching last night! To me it's really important to consider what the individual dog needs and responds to, not just do what has worked on some dogs with all of them.

In the level 3 class I think we'll be going into I was watching the heeling and there was a BC working beautifully, tight focused heeling, enthusiastic, and just a little bit bouncy occasionally when holding a sit while the instructor was talking. The owner didn't seem comfortable with it to me but did as she was told and gave a loud growly "sit" and a leash jerk. The dog's demeanour totally changed, it cringed and shrink down, clearly with no idea what had happened and gave the biggest stress shake off once it was released

Another dog heeling nicely, knowing what to do and yet still being jerked by the head collar on ever about turn, even tho it was already doing the turn anyway.

Like you say PK and Weasels, the biggest thing will be how Quinn responds and how uncomfortable I feel. If we can just go about our business and maybe have it go along the lines OSo describes that would be great but if we aren't having fun we won't keep going.

[dididog]

I also had this problem at my last club. While they were fine with me using toys and treats with very few exceptions all of the trainers were very much into jerking dogs around, manipulating them into position and punishing quite aggressively when they did something naughty. I thought the same as you, that I know what works for Didi and I'll just do that and tell the trainer I don't want to do something they suggest but it got extremely hard for me to block out all the awful training going on around me. Not just with the instructors but the way the others in the class would yell and physically abuse their dog really upset me and was starting to upset Didi as strangers yelling around her stressed her out a bit. I lasted 8 months there. It was good in the sense we got to practice training around other dogs and under distraction but I was starting to get worked up so much at the prospect of going and it was making me extremely anxious and I would spend most of class working off to the side and playing and only joined the group when it was my turn to do an exercise so I just stopped showing up.

If you think you can remain relatively disconnected and just use it as a place to practice then I'd say try it out for a bit but I at least think it's pretty damaging to your wellbeing to consistently see dogs being mistreated/abused and not really being able to say anything about it.

[Willem]

I also had this problem at my last club. While they were fine with me using toys and treats with very few exceptions all of the trainers were very much into jerking dogs around, manipulating them into position and punishing quite aggressively when they did something naughty. I thought the same as you, that I know what works for Didi and I'll just do that and tell the trainer I don't want to do something they suggest but it got extremely hard for me to block out all the awful training going on around me. Not just with the instructors but the way the others in the class would yell and physically abuse their dog really upset me and was starting to upset Didi as strangers yelling around her stressed her out a bit. I lasted 8 months there. It was good in the sense we got to practice training around other dogs and under distraction but I was starting to get worked up so much at the prospect of going and it was making me extremely anxious and I would spend most of class working off to the side and playing and only joined the group when it was my turn to do an exercise so I just stopped showing up.

If you think you can remain relatively disconnected and just use it as a place to practice then I'd say try it out for a bit but I at least think it's pretty damaging to your wellbeing to consistently see dogs being mistreated/abused and not really being able to say anything about it.

...'manipulating them into position'...you mention this in context with 'quite aggressive punishment', why?...what makes 'manipulating a dog to sit, drop or to stand' such a bad, cruel exercise?

Edited June 10, 2016 by Willem

[OSoSwift]

Yes our club wasn't a yelling yanking club by any means although chains and corrections were used.

I just treated it as training with distractions.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

1. Going to get frustrated and distressed watching all this; and

2. Going to piss off instructors by disagreeing with them and not doing things their way.

I did both of these things at my first club.

And eventually they booted all the reward based trainers off their committee so we all left.

It's made things a bit cramped at the agility club.

I get quite upset when I see other people "correcting" their dog by scolding it, or yanking it round. And I don't mean when the dog gets to the end of the lead - not following - I mean that sharp yank on the neck. I've seen more than one *instructor* grab their dog (or worse - someone else's dog" by the choke chain and lift it off the ground because - "Dog knows what it is supposed to be doing". Maybe - but you don't.

So I can't train around people who are violent with their dogs. There is always another way to get what you want.

And yes - I pissed off a lot of instructors.

They had a self destructive cycle among the instructors - the instructors that are in the instructor sub club are not beholden to the club president or committee other than the "chief instructor" who is not accountable to anyone except the other instructors. So they only recruit like minded instructors and keep others (reward based / force free trainers) out.

The only weapon we really have is to beat the pants off them repeatedly in competition - which a significant number of reward based trainers are. Change is slow.

[Salukifan]

It takes approximately 40 minutes to drive from one end of Canberra to the other.

There are three obedience clubs that I know of.

I would recommend travel to the one that best suits your training style.

Things were a lot more positive when I was involved with a local club years back. I hope its not that one.