thewss Posted June 4, 2016 Share Posted June 4, 2016 Hi all I feel like my puppy's development is going backwards in some areas rather than improving, so I just wanted to hear from people who have had the same or similar issues with their pup. I have a 4 and a half month old white Swiss Shepherd who is quite shy and timid by nature. I'd say a little more so than your average WSS (knowing WSS are not the most forthcoming/friendly breeds out there). Knowing this, I've been putting a lot of effort with socialisiation since he first arrived home at 9 weeks. Short history: He started puppy school at 9 weeks, where it took him about a class or 2 for him to come out from 'hiding'. Eventually, and towards the end, as soon as we walked through the doors he'd get really excited to meet everyone again. Aside from puppy school, he's been taken out and about and was generally the normal excitable puppy when people came to greet him. Shortly after graduating from puppy school, he started barking at other dogs out in public. His anxiety towards other dogs started getting worse so then I ramped up his socialisation with dogs, and in the last 2 weeks (after full vaccination) I've taken him to the dog park almost every day. He also started beginner training and goes twice a week now, so he gets plenty of controlled socialisation with dogs. This seems to have helped quite a bit and I'm now seeing huge improvements, although it's not perfect yet. In the last 2 weeks however, I've also noticed he has started barking at people/strangers. Most of the time he does this when strangers approach him, but on the odd occasion he will bark at people minding their own business. At first I thought it was only towards men but then realised it didn't matter the age, gender, size, type of person. He'll also bark if a stranger approaches to talk to me, even when they are ignoring him. I first noticed this behaviour towards select people that he may not have liked the look of, and with others he was ok to be touched. But now it seems to be just about anyone. People who understand dogs will try and help the situation by stepping back (sometimes turning their back) and offering him a treat. This sort of works in that he will cautiously step forward to reach for the treat, grabs the treat, then steps back again. I'm not sure if this is creating a positive impact on him - I guess time will tell. He hasn't had any bad experiences, so I'm not sure why he's turned all of a sudden. Is there anything else I could be doing to get him over this fear? Is it just part of the development cycle? I'd love to hear about similar cases! Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted June 4, 2016 Share Posted June 4, 2016 Don't panic just yet - I will advise you to read the info in all these links - They will help explain some of what you've noticed , I think . LINK 1 Development Calendar . LINK 2 Socialisation - what is it exactly ? LINK 3 Socialise now- play later . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suziwong66 Posted June 4, 2016 Share Posted June 4, 2016 we've had some of what you've experienced but our problems with our 19 month bitch originated from people behaviour inappropriately when we were out and about socialising from a very young age - I am guessing that some of these incidents occurred during her fear periods. Her confidence has been seriously eroded and we now work with a behaviourist to help with the fear, anxiety and reactivity. I am not suggesting your situation is the same; i'm just sharing our experiences. Our girl is fine with strangers when we're out and about until they stop and stare giving her direct eye contact; then she reacts by barking. We are currently working on getting her to relax a little more and have taught her a 'greet' command with a built in default that she can come back to the heel any time she wants. She is not obliged to do anything other than touch the person's hand when it's offered after she's been released with the greet command. We do this with everyone that comes into the house as well. Had i the advantage of hindsight, i would have consulted a behaviourist earlier to help her relax more. As for other dogs...she is still reacting but is coming down from her reactive state much quicker. We currently don't allow anyone to approach us with their dog - we are working toward that with our behaviourist but are a long way from that goal as yet. I am somewhat confident that we will reach our goals as she's displaying behaviour that indicates she wants to interact with strange dogs but she's not confident enough to do so. I am hoping that once she has some more controlled interactions that are positive in outcome her fear will allay somewhat and her confidence will build. We no longer allow treats when our girl is in an anxious state as it's way too easy to reward and reinforce the behaviour - at this point in her treatment we allow her to react and help her calm down and then once she's calmed down we give her a treat. We have the advantage of having another dog that is quite laid back so when she's reacting and he's sitting nicely, i treat him heavily - she often will control her reactivity and then focus on the treats he is getting. Once she calms herself, we treat her. I am not afraid to say that i was inadvertently reinforcing her reactivity by using treats to distract her when they weren't doing a very good job of distracting her. Our behaviourist has been really helpful in helping me identify my own behaviours. If you are unsure, my recommendation is to find yourself a good trainer and/or behaviourist to help guide you. All my previous dogs have been super laid back and were capable of getting over hiccoughs easily; this young bitch is my first really challenging dog and I wish i had of gotten help/guidance earlier because her anxiety and reactivity is now outside of my skill set to manage independently. Good luck i hope all works out for you and your boy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starkehre Posted June 4, 2016 Share Posted June 4, 2016 I'd say there are a few things going on here, that are manifesting now more because of development... genetics, early socialisation and raising by the breeder, and guardian breed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted June 4, 2016 Share Posted June 4, 2016 (edited) My immediate response is that any concerns about your dog's behaviour are unlikely to be 'cured' by going to a dog park. Quite the contrary. I'd say the kind of free for all generally found in a dog park may heighten anxiety. I wouldn't take any pup to one, let alone an anxious one. Get some professional help. The first step will be for a professional to tell you what is triggering the reactions you are seeing and then to assist you to deal with them. The other thing to remember is that you chose a breed that is not meant to greet strangers like lost best friends. This is not a Labrador! Edited June 4, 2016 by Haredown Whippets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted June 4, 2016 Share Posted June 4, 2016 I agree with HW - I wouldn't go to a dog park with a dog that is nervous or reactive. I don't take any of my dogs to dog parks as I don't like the free for all in there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewss Posted June 5, 2016 Author Share Posted June 5, 2016 Persephone - thank you for those links. I have read the first one, hence why I thought perhaps this behaviour was the norm during this so called fear period. Suziwong66 - thanks for sharing your experience. I have been considering a behaviourist but wasn't sure if this behaviour was cause for one, in that he is still young and perhaps just going through a 'phase'. But I might just look for one now to get some early advice! HW - thanks for your advice. I'll cease the dog park trips and just maintain the classes. Hopefully I'll be able to find a good trainer or behaviourist who can give some guidance. And yes I'm fully aware that this breed is not the friendly lab. I don't expect them to be forthcoming towards strangers. I just don't want them nervously barking at people or other dogs. Instead I expect them to be observant, and (with training and time) display confidence in any situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted June 5, 2016 Share Posted June 5, 2016 Persephone - thank you for those links. I have read the first one, hence why I thought perhaps this behaviour was the norm during this so called fear period. Suziwong66 - thanks for sharing your experience. I have been considering a behaviourist but wasn't sure if this behaviour was cause for one, in that he is still young and perhaps just going through a 'phase'. But I might just look for one now to get some early advice! HW - thanks for your advice. I'll cease the dog park trips and just maintain the classes. Hopefully I'll be able to find a good trainer or behaviourist who can give some guidance. And yes I'm fully aware that this breed is not the friendly lab. I don't expect them to be forthcoming towards strangers. I just don't want them nervously barking at people or other dogs. Instead I expect them to be observant, and (with training and time) display confidence in any situation. ...isn't there a qualified instructor with whom you can discuss the behaviour?...wrt dog parks respectively 'forced' socialisation: agree with others; you can't force a dog to socialise if he is anxious as this will back fire. Encouraging yes, but exceeding the threshold where it is only stress for the dog will achieve the opposite. Keep the distance to people, dogs and things & items that is comfortable for him and wait till he wants to investigate more and wants to get closer. Be aware that there is not only one fear period - every dog responses a little bit different and even older dogs (over a year) might go through another fear period. A few dogs also develop anxiety due to early desexing - then it is not only a period, but a lifetime challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewss Posted June 5, 2016 Author Share Posted June 5, 2016 Willem yes I have discussed with a few different instructors and they don't really have any specific advice except to keep up the socialization (and to hand out treats to strangers to use when greeting). Over time (and perseverance) I suppose this may work, hence why I'm interested to hear from others on what they've seen work. I will seek professional help though, as I'm conscious that this period is the most important time for a pup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiverStar-Aura Posted June 5, 2016 Share Posted June 5, 2016 Where abouts are you located? There are quite a number of awesome dog people who can be recommended for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewss Posted June 5, 2016 Author Share Posted June 5, 2016 I'm in Sydney (western) area Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheena Posted June 5, 2016 Share Posted June 5, 2016 You could try the Look At That Game....but you need to take it very slowly & "set up" scenarios where you can train it in a controlled environment & gradually add the triggers. Here are some notes that will get you going...if nothing else...have a read :) LAT Game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 The LAT game is a great idea, particularly because it does not require the dog to interact directly. I am not keen on strangers giving people-leery dogs food. That's how dogs get pressured into going closer than they are comfortable with, which can lead to bites. Better to let them feel safe and in control and let them collect information in their own time. LAT offers a way to do this with structure. It also adds some counter-conditioning, which is another good idea. I think it's fair to assume that if your dog is going backwards in socialisation, you need to go slower and do less rather than more. I don't mean take the dog out less so much as pick less intense exposures (fewer people or dogs, less bustle in the environment, more distance) and work back up as the dog gets less reactive. I don't pay much attention to fear periods myself. You never really know if that's what is going on or not, so best to just take one day at a time and act according to your dog's needs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 (edited) I would try and get in to see Steve @ K9Pro or find a trainer. The earlier the better but I am sure he will have some advice as to what to do in the period before you see him. The earlier you can get onto any potential nervousness problem the better. I would definitely be scaling back on the dog park visits though. Here is the link for Steve - http://k9pro.com.au/ Edited June 8, 2016 by ness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 Willem yes I have discussed with a few different instructors and they don't really have any specific advice except to keep up the socialization (and to hand out treats to strangers to use when greeting). Over time (and perseverance) I suppose this may work, hence why I'm interested to hear from others on what they've seen work. I will seek professional help though, as I'm conscious that this period is the most important time for a pup. if it would be my dog I would be concerned as this could encourage a dog to run to strangers for getting treats - that's not what I want. I want that she is aware that she gets the best stuff from me - if she follows the cues and is a good girl. Even if I allow strangers to pad her (after they asked and it seems to be ok for me), she gets the treats from me. I can recognize in obedience and agility that the owners of dogs that are used to get the treats from anywhere, have more problems to get the dog's focus / attention. Another thought worth contemplating: while it might be a fear period for the dog, it shouldn't be a fear period for the owner!...how you interpret your leadership role is what shapes the dog... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juice Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 (edited) i spoke to a trainer recently who was very good,premier dog training in sydney. Edited June 8, 2016 by juice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 LAT, used appropriately, rocks. Brilliant for pups/dogs that are reactive/fearful OR over excited. I agree - not big on strangers giving treats - it really doesn't build confidence. Possibly because it's a game of luring rather than choice and reward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewss Posted June 12, 2016 Author Share Posted June 12, 2016 I would try and get in to see Steve @ K9Pro or find a trainer. The earlier the better but I am sure he will have some advice as to what to do in the period before you see him. The earlier you can get onto any potential nervousness problem the better. I would definitely be scaling back on the dog park visits though. Here is the link for Steve - http://k9pro.com.au/ Thanks ness. I did contact them but the earliest available time slot was September! So I'm looking at a couple of other places now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumabaar Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 Yes you are more than justified talking to a behaviouralist right now for this type of problem. You are setting the stage for your pups entire life so better to jump the gun a little now to have a fun future then err on the side of letting it go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewss Posted June 12, 2016 Author Share Posted June 12, 2016 You could try the Look At That Game....but you need to take it very slowly & "set up" scenarios where you can train it in a controlled environment & gradually add the triggers. Here are some notes that will get you going...if nothing else...have a read :) LAT Game I've started the LAT game at home :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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