Tor Posted May 29, 2016 Share Posted May 29, 2016 Hello DOLers! I am the proud first-time owner of a boxer puppy, Sebastian, who is now 7 months old. He has been a fabulous puppy, no trouble toilet training or waking at night, he's generally calm inside the house, he's never chewed or destroyed anything, we just adore him. He is very confident and friendly and gets along well with other dogs. He is very polite when off-lead, he approaches and asks to play appropriately and backs off when told by another dog. He is also good at defusing any difficult situations, although I watch very closely and step in if necessary. He generally seems to know which dogs to steer clear of though. My goals for him are to be a polite and well-behaved dog who can be trusted off-lead. Eventually I'd like to train him as a therapy dog, I think he's got the right calm, bombproof temperament and he loves everyone. But I'm not interested in high level obedience or agility particularly. Maybe tracking one day down the road. We go to obedience class once a week and I do little sessions at least once a day. He has an off lead run at the dog beach or park at least five times a week, the other days I take him for a structured walk and/or to Petbarn. He knows sit, stay, come, off, touch,leave it, where's your ball/toy. We are working on back and heel. He walks well on a loose leash until he sees a person or another dog. And this is where I'd like some advice. He wants to say hello to everyone and pulls/lunges towards them. Right now I am getting him to sit and do some watch me, or other commands until they go past. I'm not letting him meet anyone on the lead at the moment as he just gets too excited. Is this the right approach? He does get plenty of social interaction at the dog park and Petbarn. Ultimately I'd like him to be able to sit calmly and accept a pat or hello. Right now I can usually get him to sit before he starts lunging or pulling but it can be hard if it's busy, as it was today. I distracted him with sticky cheese on my fingers to walk him into Petbarn without pulling, is that ok? Usually I do a combination of standing still and changing direction for pulling. Our other issue is at training. He just gets so excited by all the other dogs and is desperate to play with them. He ends up doing a fair bit of lead chewing and fighting which he never does anywhere else's. I think it's pure frustration and excitement. I don't let him play at all, except maybe at the end if there's a compatible dog. I usually take him three meters or so away from the group and he can usually listen quite well there for short bursts. Should I stop the group classes? I enjoy them, we have a lovely friendly club, but I don't want him to get so frustrated he starts to hate going. Phew! Sorry this is so long. I'm a first time puppy raiser, so any advice gratefully appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tor Posted May 29, 2016 Author Share Posted May 29, 2016 (edited) Oh I'm trying to add a photo but it won't work! Edited May 29, 2016 by Tor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottsmum Posted May 29, 2016 Share Posted May 29, 2016 Oh I'm trying to add a photo but it won't work! :) It needs to be quite small - under 300kb to add as an attachment - thats like a low res jpeg from paint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted May 29, 2016 Share Posted May 29, 2016 ...we had a similar problem with our BC - this thread has a lot of good ideas from the members here; now 7 month later she still loves to run and play with other dogs, but does it on my terms respectively when she is allowed to do so. She holds her stand, sit and drop during obedience between all the other dogs pretty good, and I have no problem recalling her when she runs with other dogs - I'm very happy with how she develops :). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tor Posted May 29, 2016 Author Share Posted May 29, 2016 ...we had a similar problem with our BC - this thread has a lot of good ideas from the members here; now 7 month later she still loves to run and play with other dogs, but does it on my terms respectively when she is allowed to do so. She holds her stand, sit and drop during obedience between all the other dogs pretty good, and I have no problem recalling her when she runs with other dogs - I'm very happy with how she develops :). Oh thank you! I will read through the thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 Always hard to know how things will develop with a young dog. I would suggest the following: 1) The Look At That game (from Control Unleashed - look it up on YouTube for a tutorial) when on leash and people are around. The trick is to reward him for a quick glance at people so you interrupt him before he gets fixated, but you're still giving him the opportunity to check on them. That way, you know he's processing the oncoming people and not just being distracted. 2) You can either decree no greetings on leash or allow him to greet on cue. It's up to you. It's probably easier to do the former so he doesn't anticipate the release, but be careful he's not getting frustrated. If having him sit and focus on you is working now, I would continue to do that, make sure he is rewarded well for this, and start sneaking some Look At That in if you like to make sure he is learning that this is what we do in response to people. Where it is not working because it's too busy or whatever, you can switch to shoving food in his face if that is successful. I would avoid those situations, though, because that is beyond what he has the skills to handle at the moment. Can you wait outside Petbarn a little ways off where he can chill until it's less busy? 3) I would not stop the group class if you think they are useful. Just move him farther away again. It's hard work to hold yourself in check when you really want to go and play with the dogs. So, don't ask him to do it for extended periods when the dogs are so close and tempting. Move him far enough away that he can give you at least 80% of his attention and the rest to the other dogs and whatever else is going on around him. If he can only do that for short periods, take him well away for a quick play to release his tension before he starts getting antsy, then come back for another go. You should be able to gradually come closer to the other dogs in the class as the weeks progress. If you can't, chances are he needs shorter sessions near the dogs and longer sessions away from them. Or he needs to be farther away again. Or it's possible the classes are just really challenging for him and he might be better off not being there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tor Posted June 1, 2016 Author Share Posted June 1, 2016 Thank you Corvus, those are all great tips. I have tried the Look at That game a bit, but I don't think I was doing it very well - he didn't really seem to pick it up and I gave up after a few goes. I'm very inexoerienced so I'm sure it was my fault. I took him to sit outside a cafe today and he did really well. He sat with me quietly and although he did get up a few times, he came back and sat when I told him to. When he saw someone going past I made his positive interrupting noise and treated him when he looked around at me, which he always did. A few people asked if they could pat and he was happy but quite calm - no jumping, but some excited sniffing. I will try standing a bit further away in the classes and also take more breaks. Thanks again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheena Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 I wrote this article on Look At That Game, & put it on my web page, to save having to explain the fundamentals to people every time I tried to explain how it works. You are very welcome to have a look if you like :) The LAT Game Secret is to not try to rush it...you need to be patient...it is not going to happen overnight, like most training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tor Posted June 3, 2016 Author Share Posted June 3, 2016 Thank you Sheena, that's really helpful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witheverythingiam Posted June 5, 2016 Share Posted June 5, 2016 You've described a typical Boxer. They are the class clown and always want to interact with the other dogs. :) We did low level obedience, agility, endurance and lure coursing with our boy. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tor Posted June 18, 2016 Author Share Posted June 18, 2016 (edited) Well, we had a really good day at training today. I actually bought a new lead - it's a chain link one that attaches as normal to his flat collar. I thought it might stop him from wanting to chew his lead, and it did! He tried a couple of times, but clearly didn't like it. He was able to focus well for the majority of the hour class, he did all the exercises beautifully and the instructor used him to demonstrate some clicker training. He even got me to drop his lead while he worked with him which I was pretty nervous about, but it was fine. He did do a bit of lunging towards other dogs, but it was easy to redirect him and I did a lot of playing with his tug toy as a reward for working and also during the waiting times. I'm hoping that's increasing my value for him and that he can see I'm fun too, not just other dogs. We were able to stay with the main group too, I didn't have to stand four metres away. The instructor said he could go up to the next class after the club's next fun day in a couple of weeks. I'm very proud of him! Our issue now is working on calm walking from the car to the tie-up point and to and from the class area. Right now he is still being zig zag pully during those parts. I can now imagine that one day we might even be able to do some agility. I was watching some of the beginner agility people today, and the dogs were still on-lead, which I didn't realise you could do. So I'm more hopeful as before it looked like an unattainable dream. I think he'd love to do agility for fun, he's really athletic and smart. So maybe one day. We are going to start working on LAT properly this week, thank you for all the great suggestions Edited June 18, 2016 by Tor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papillon Kisses Posted June 18, 2016 Share Posted June 18, 2016 Great news Tor! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roova Posted June 18, 2016 Share Posted June 18, 2016 Not sure if I read this right but in-between his training is he still getting free running with other dogs at the park? This may be just building a reinforcement history for him that playing with other dogs is the most fun thing he can do? Maybe drop this back until you have good focus and can use short bursts of play as a reward? How is his recall when off lead? If it's not great every failure to return is probably not going to help focusing on you in the long run. Maybe consider all 'free' walks to be attached to you on a horse lunge lead so he can still roam, sniff and play but if you call him, you can reel him in if you need compliance? I would be loaded up with his favourite treats to make returning to you worth it too. Alternately (or in conjunction with) you could use a release word after he has returned so return to play is the reward. This will also teach him you don't just end all fun times lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted June 18, 2016 Share Posted June 18, 2016 (edited) Not sure if I read this right but in-between his training is he still getting free running with other dogs at the park? This may be just building a reinforcement history for him that playing with other dogs is the most fun thing he can do? Maybe drop this back until you have good focus and can use short bursts of play as a reward? How is his recall when off lead? If it's not great every failure to return is probably not going to help focusing on you in the long run. Maybe consider all 'free' walks to be attached to you on a horse lunge lead so he can still roam, sniff and play but if you call him, you can reel him in if you need compliance? I would be loaded up with his favourite treats to make returning to you worth it too. Alternately (or in conjunction with) you could use a release word after he has returned so return to play is the reward. This will also teach him you don't just end all fun times lol ...that's an interesting one. When we had our problems to get the focus of our dog (see link in post #4) people also suggested to keep her away from other dogs for a while. I decided to let her still play and run with other dogs, but on my terms and for dedicated times. E.g. I gave her a good run with the other dogs before the official obedience training, or when we caught up with her friends in an off-leash area, but I also refused contacts when in trainings mode, on walks or in off-leash areas during training. I'm very happy with my decision. The runs with other dog is IMO not only very beneficial for the dog's physical health (muscle development, fitness etc.), but also regarding mental stimulation, socialisation etc.. She was not the most confident dog, but letting her run with the big guys really boosted her self-esteem. Training after a good run was also much easier and the value of the distraction / appetitive stimuli (=other dogs) faded after a good run. When her recall was somehow reliable, I used the socialisation before the official obedience training also to test her recall - and was in for a nice surprise: I could call her back while she was running in a pack with other dogs, she got her treat and as additional reward another turn. It teaches her that she can have both (treats and runs / play time with other dogs) - if she is obedient. Isolating the dog from other dogs might see a faster result in training, but will the recall be more reliable when there are other dogs around?...I doubt it. Plus there will be the missed opportunities regarding socialisation with other dogs. Saying this, I can recognise now that the method (run / playtime on my terms) was the right one for our dog, but it doesn't mean that this is the silver bullet for every dog - the right choice will always depend on the individual character of the particular dog. Eta: ...I think the highlighted text is very important. Trying to call a dog back while running with other dogs with only little chance that the dog will follow the cue bears the risk of reinforcing the unwanted behaviour. Minimise the attempts - best only one attempt, if it works, keep on going (but don't overdue it), if it doesn't you have to wait till the recall without distraction is more reliable. Choose also the time for the testing wisely, give your dog a good run first as the chances are much higher for success when the dog is a little bit tired and the values of the two appetitive stimuli (treats vs. run with other dogs) shifts. The better the recall, the more challenging the scenarios for the recall can be. Edited June 18, 2016 by Willem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tor Posted June 18, 2016 Author Share Posted June 18, 2016 It's something I've considered too, whether letting him play is a good idea, but he loves it so much and it's so good for him that I don't think I can stop it altogether, nor do I want to. I also have a feeling that it would just increase his frustration, if he was never allowed to play. But I am putting limits on it. I take him to an enclosed dog park earliyish when there are only ever 1-3 other dogs, all now familiar.' He must sit and wait for my "ok"'before he goes to play. His recall is great in the absence of other dogs and we are working on it all the time. I'm not testing it around other dogs right now as I don't want to reinforce not coming back and our park set up is one in which I don't need to call him, as the dogs meet and go home at the same time. When he comes over to check in, he gets a treat and released to play again. He doesn't play at training and he doesn't meet other dogs while walking on leash right now. My aim is to be able to greet calmly and move on, but that's going to take a while Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 It's something I've considered too, whether letting him play is a good idea, but he loves it so much and it's so good for him that I don't think I can stop it altogether, nor do I want to. I also have a feeling that it would just increase his frustration, if he was never allowed to play. But I am putting limits on it. I take him to an enclosed dog park earliyish when there are only ever 1-3 other dogs, all now familiar.' He must sit and wait for my "ok"'before he goes to play. His recall is great in the absence of other dogs and we are working on it all the time. I'm not testing it around other dogs right now as I don't want to reinforce not coming back and our park set up is one in which I don't need to call him, as the dogs meet and go home at the same time. When he comes over to check in, he gets a treat and released to play again. He doesn't play at training and he doesn't meet other dogs while walking on leash right now. My aim is to be able to greet calmly and move on, but that's going to take a while ...that's pretty much what I did, and it worked!...8 month later now and she has one of the best recalls in her obedience class (really close to 100% - no matter what the distraction is). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roova Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 I would be thinking limiting dog play is more a means to an end, whilst you're trying to achieve a training goal, not something to do forever. Once you have gained control and reliability then other dogs won't be more important than listening to you. It might take a bit longer if play continues but persistence should eventually pay off :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 It's something I've considered too, whether letting him play is a good idea, but he loves it so much and it's so good for him that I don't think I can stop it altogether, nor do I want to. I also have a feeling that it would just increase his frustration, if he was never allowed to play. But I am putting limits on it. I take him to an enclosed dog park earliyish when there are only ever 1-3 other dogs, all now familiar.' He must sit and wait for my "ok"'before he goes to play. His recall is great in the absence of other dogs and we are working on it all the time. I'm not testing it around other dogs right now as I don't want to reinforce not coming back and our park set up is one in which I don't need to call him, as the dogs meet and go home at the same time. When he comes over to check in, he gets a treat and released to play again. He doesn't play at training and he doesn't meet other dogs while walking on leash right now. My aim is to be able to greet calmly and move on, but that's going to take a while So a nice way to do this is to continually up the ante....so for example, before my pup gets to go running (and she is bonkers about RUNNING not playing with other dogs) I expect her to play tug and follow multiple verbal cues, all correct behaviours followed up with a food reward - sit, drop, stand, twist, spin, paws up, say your prayers, nose touch - and THEN run. I might even say "go play" and immediately recall her, repeating this 5-6 times before releasing her properly. Just continues to build value for you because going running/playing/swimming/hunting is contingent on engagement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 Playing - YES . :) he can also play with YOU ... which puts YOU as a the BIG TREAT ..the one who has the games/treats :) Whay does he enjoy doing? Play with him doing that . use a longline . Don dog & I play fetch , tug , and 'find it' all on longline :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 (edited) I would be thinking limiting dog play is more a means to an end, whilst you're trying to achieve a training goal, not something to do forever. Once you have gained control and reliability then other dogs won't be more important than listening to you. It might take a bit longer if play continues but persistence should eventually pay off :D I think Tor's approach is a good way to use the stimuli with the highest value (other dogs) for our own advantage. Once the dog settled on the learning path of positive reinforcement this playtime on our own terms can be really used as reward - and it seems to work. Conversely I don't think that isolating the dog from other dogs will erase this interest in other dogs (I guess it is strongly linked to instincts) so there is a big risks that the recall needs to be trained / reinforced anyway the moment other dogs are around. Plus the social interaction with other dogs is a very important part too and best learned when the dog is younger and grows in to it. Eta: ...wrt highlighted text I have to correct myself - I know at least one dog that seems to be not interested in other dogs at all, however, I'm not sure whether this is a good behaviour...at least it doesn't seem to be very natural and balanced for me. Edited June 19, 2016 by Willem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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