A Good Message

[raineth]

yeah - it's an interesting discussion ...

I do agree with the personal space thing , and from the bits I've read from mark Singer .. cuddles/being on furniture etc are all fine , provided the initiation comes from the human , not the dog.

isn't it just 'good manners' ?

In most cases your dog is not trying to dominate you

In most cases your dog is not looking to 'dominate' you, in actual fact it is rare. Your dog is only reacting to the way you interact with it. You teach your dog how to react with you, family members, and visitors. Be a leader your dog can respect by being consistent with discipline, and learn to read your dogs intent when interacting with it. Understand the rules of controlling personal space and assertive behaviours, and I assure you, you will gain a lot more respect from your dog.

Dominance is rare in the same way Big Foot is rare.

[persephone]

staring at a (literally feral) cat intensely and my MIL did the "Sst" *poke* thing like CM does pretty unnecessary.

LOL .if you did that to one of our dogs - they would take that as : GET HIM!! and be off like a speeding bullet !

[BlaznHotAussies]

staring at a (literally feral) cat intensely and my MIL did the "Sst" *poke* thing like CM does pretty unnecessary.

LOL .if you did that to one of our dogs - they would take that as : GET HIM!! and be off like a speeding bullet !

Hahaha, I have actually encouraged my dogs to chase them (the cats are pretty fast) but have rethought that, considering when I got scratched and bitten by one we were doing away with it got infected

On a tangent, my childhood dog, a little Silky Terrier X Maltese, used to come on walks with me around one of the paddocks and there was a section full of rabbit holes. Often we'd get to a certain distance from them & she'd see movement & perch down on her haunches until I said "Get 'em!!" and she'd shoot off! Was the cutest thing, she never caught them

[Simply Grand]

Actually there's a well regarded (and by no means bad) trainer up here who has the same kind of philosophy, even for dogs just needing some general manners and obedience training he says you cannot have them on the bed, walking in front of you etc because it means you aren't the "leader”.

These sorts of trainers should be banished. I imagine he is okay with the basics, but all this leader and dominance business has caused so much harm to dogs and owners.

So called Dr Cam by any chance?

I'd be really interested in whether it is Dr Cam as a friend whose dog has terrible anxiety is saving up to see a vet behaviourist and he's the only registered VB in Brisbane, where she lives. Her dog would completely melt down with some of the dominance theory based strategies.

No no, not Dr Cam *goes to research Dr Cam.

I don't think the guy I'm talking about and his other trainers, are extreme with the dominance stuff, I'm not 100% sure but I don't think they do a lot of physical stuff and I don't think they're promoting hard corrections etc. I've only seen a presentation an demo from them myself but a number of people in an FB group I'm on have trained with them and from what they've said about their training and the advice they give others it's pretty clear that there is a strong emphasis on the idea that behaviour issues primarily stem from the dog not seeing the human as their pack leader.

Stuff like that someone's dog who walks out the front of owner and other dog and pulls on the lead is pulling because it sees itself as the leader because it's allowed to walk at the front, for example.

[Papillon Kisses]

Dominance Theory Debunked: http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org

Edited May 18, 2016 by Papillon Kisses

[persephone]

Dominance Theory Debunked: http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org

Thanks, P K . Lots of interest on that site .

The final paragraph from this article :)

DOMINANCE THEORY

Although it has been widely accepted amongst qualified behaviourists and trainers for many years that the interpretation of dog behaviour based on a ‘dominance model’ relies on unsupported assumptions, this outdated approach is still used by those that have not had the opportunity to study the most recent literature and clinical practice. This article has explained how this theory arose through a historical ‘mistake’ in the interpretation of wolf behaviour, along with a series of assumptions about how this might apply to dogs. These assumptions have been clearly shown to be erroneous by recent research, and a modern interpretation of dog behaviour provides us with a much clearer interpretation of how and why behaviour develops. Although often portrayed as an ‘academic argument’ it is important to realise that the way people interpret the behaviour of their dogs has a strong influence on the way that they behave towards them. Dispelling the myths behind this theory is therefore an important step in enhancing the welfare of the dogs in our care.

[Simply Grand]

Oh I also meant to say, I don't actually have a big problem with TRAINERS teaching pet owners that "leadership" in the form of setting boundaries like stay off the furniture unless invited, don't walk out in front on lead, wait until you're released for food or at door/gates etc, will help with behaviour and obedience.

If those kind of things are taught through rewarding desired behaviours, being consistent, giving clear cues etc and they give the owners a sense of control over their dog's behaviour without resorting to harsh punishments then I think they are fine.

And explaining it as "be the leader" is a lot easier for a lot of people to understand, especially in a short space of time, than trying to explain learning theory and quadrants and relationship building and reward history and how dogs do respond well to feeling confident that they can turn to you for guidance in difficult or stressful situations rather than reacting on their first impulse etc etc.

I think where it is risky is when less experienced people (like those in my FB group) take the over simplified explanation they've gotten from the trainer and start implementing in situations they haven't covered with the trainer or even worse, give advice to other people, without understanding the complexity behind it.

[Simply Grand]

And another thought, I don't like it when trainers, or anyone, make blanket statements about "you have to do this" or "you can never do this" full stop. I prefer the approach of "if you want your dog to do this, you need to do this, and this is why".

As we've seen just in this thread a problem behaviour for one person is not a problem for someone else, what works in one household doesn't work in another. Training should be about what sets up this household to have happy humans and happy dog, that are also not presenting problems to any one else.

I always remember doing a training session with a woman who was struggling to deal with an energetic adolescent largish mixed breed dog. One of the things she was worried about was walking him and she said he doesn't pull too much but he won't stay on my left side he likes to be on the right. She'd been stressing during walks about keeping him on her left and when I asked why he had to be on the left she said because that's where they're supposed to be isn't it?

My advice was unless you're wanting to compete in obedience (she wasn't) then let him walk wherever works for both of you! You could see the relief in her face when she got "permission" to just relax and wall her dog how SE felt like it.

[The Spotted Devil]

I put it like this....I have no problem with dogs on beds or on my lounge. If you DON'T want that then be prepared to TRAIN it - teach your dog to DO what you would like them to do (eg lie on their bed) - and by train I mean "reward what you want and manage when you can't, not intimidate. Moving through doors, out of crates and out of cars is critical for me...I have trained them to sit when my hand touches the door...in what order my dogs are released depends on who is demonstrating the best behaviour (break early and you go to the back of the queue lol) and/or who I need for training at that point in time. 9 times out of 10 I want to release them before I move through the front door so I can make sure the cats don't "door dash" but I might want them to wait until a visitor moves through. Sometimes I let them run in the big chook yard (sans chooks!) and I expect the same manners at the gate. It's a very fun way to check whether they can demonstrate impulse control under HIGH arousal..."are you ready! Are you steady! Are you readyyyyyyyyy!?!" :laugh: Translates beautifully to agility start line stays and steady Gundogs.

Edited May 18, 2016 by The Spotted Devil

[The Spotted Devil]

My Spaniels climb into my lap, curl up on my feet and snuggle on my pillow uninvited. Dog forbid they don't even get "disciplined" whatever the hell that is. Yet take Em into the field and she explodes into the most incredible working dog. No lack of connection or attention. Go figure!

:) slightly OT - do have any videos of Em working ?

Hey Pers! Videos are hard as they work at such long distances (up to 150 m) in retrieving trials so it's hard to follow. Here's some footage a friend managed to get at a trial - think it was the 2nd run (in All Age it's 3 runs and usually 3 items of game for each). To explain what's happening it shows Em delivering the blind (a blind is a retrieve that the dog HAS NOT seen fall so they have to trust you and run off the line that you give them) and then being sent on the memory mark (mark is a retrieve that the dog has seen fall - in this scenario she saw the mark go up, had to leave that, get the blind, THEN get the mark and then go back for a "double rise" which is where a 2nd retrieve is placed around 10 m behind the 1st mark. Dogs are trained NOT to go back to the fall of a bird so this is a special command to actually go back there). The dogs only saw the very top arc of the mark so you can see she dives left to check (also a lot of scent from the double rise out there) but then comes straight back to the area of the fall and picks it up.:

Some of the best days we've had have been away from trialling - working paddocks for partridge and picking up on a paid shoot. Makes my heart sing to watch her work. It's all a game to her. Work = Play = Work.

[Willem]

I admit I have some problems following this thread, e.g. I don't understand the connection between leadership and dominance - IMO these are 2 different things.

wrt the link http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/ provided earlier: the concerns about using previous wolf studies to explain dominance behaviour are widely acknowledged, however, I can't see that using behaviour studies based on a group of neutered dogs is in anyway more suitable to rebut the older theories.

quote from http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/why-not-dominance.php:

The study, described in Bradshaw et al. (2009) investigated the interactions between a group of 19 dogs housed together in a ‘sanctuary’ environment. The aim of this study was to investigate

whether these neutered domestic dogs

, which had been in the group for at least 6 months and were freely able to determine interactions between group members, formed a hierarchical structure as predicted by the ‘dominance theory’.

Neutered dogs behave differently (obviously they will have some issues filling out a parental role :) ), hence it is a little bit keen to use the findings of such a study as evidence for any behaviour of entire dogs.

[Scottsmum]

Hey Pers! Videos are hard as they work at such long distances (up to 150 m) in retrieving trials so it's hard to follow. Here's some footage a friend managed to get at a trial - think it was the 2nd run (in All Age it's 3 runs and usually 3 items of game for each). To explain what's happening it shows Em delivering the blind (a blind is a retrieve that the dog HAS NOT seen fall so they have to trust you and run off the line that you give them) and then being sent on the memory mark (mark is a retrieve that the dog has seen fall - in this scenario she saw the mark go up, had to leave that, get the blind, THEN get the mark and then go back for a "double rise" which is where a 2nd retrieve is placed around 10 m behind the 1st mark. Dogs are trained NOT to go back to the fall of a bird so this is a special command to actually go back there). The dogs only saw the very top arc of the mark so you can see she dives left to check (also a lot of scent from the double rise out there) but then comes straight back to the area of the fall and picks it up.:

Some of the best days we've had have been away from trialling - working paddocks for partridge and picking up on a paid shoot. Makes my heart sing to watch her work. It's all a game to her. Work = Play = Work.

Thanks for sharing & explaining.

That waggling tail :thumbsup:

[persephone]

:D Thank you ! She loves her job!! I have seen this with labs ... but not with an ESS ... and love that it's done in the field . back in teh day , we had a Koolie bitch with a lovely soft mouth ,who was The Boss's duck dog - she was amazing ..spent so much time in the water retrieving and having a ball .

Beautiful bit of country, too :)

[Steph M]

Em for PM!

[The Spotted Devil]

:laugh: Glad you enjoyed it! She's a cracker all right. Scottsmum it gets even more complicated on some runs - what these dogs are capable of comprehending and remembering is amazing. Pers I have some very old photos of a Dalmatian working as a Gundog. Mine doesn't have the mouth for it

Edited May 19, 2016 by The Spotted Devil