A Good Message

[persephone]

from Mark Singer's FB page >

[Simply Grand]

Hahahahahaha!

Saxon and Riley sometimes compete over sitting on

my lap and occasionally will move further and further up me to be the closest until I end up with a bum in my face and push them both off.

[Steph M]

Yeah sorry. I don't buy this either. If I ask my dog to hop off my feet/legs/lap he will but otherwise he comes to sit on me for warmth/affection/comfort.

Dogs aren't people, its not the same deal

[Steph M]

Yes! That's a good point!

[Simply Grand]

Oh I didn't even take it seriously! Does he really say you shouldn't let your dog initiate contact?!?

I'm with you guys, like I said mine walk on me and climb on me and lean on me pat me, if I don't feel like it I tell them to move or stop but otherwise we all enjoy it

It's the old if they sleep on the bed/walk in front of you/go through doors before you/eat before you they will become "dominant" over you story.

[Simply Grand]

Actually there's a well regarded (and by no means bad) trainer up here who has the same kind of philosophy, even for dogs just needing some general manners and obedience training he says you cannot have them on the bed, walking in front of you etc because it means you aren't the "leader".

[westiemum]

Snook Andy leans in when he's feeling insecure and he sits on my foot - and I don't mind if it helps my little man feel better - he's a rescue after all just like Justice.

Today I had a very long work day so I left them with Mum early this morning. Apparently Andy sat near the window for over two hours waiting for me to come home. Mum said he heard my car tonight and that he was carrying on like a madman with excitement. And he was all over me like a rash when I finally walked in the door at 7.50 pm. Whereas Sarah, a confident well socialised non-rescue barely batted an eye-lid from her position on the lounge as I came in. As for the bed... well its share and share alike in this house!!! And yet my guys are in no doubt who the boss is here. So i think its whatever works for you and don't overthink it.

[The Spotted Devil]

Oh what simplistic nonsense. There's more to a balanced household than who initiates contact, who eats first and who goes through doors first.

[sas]

Old dominance theory - proven wrong time and time again yet it still manages to hold in there by desperate people wanting a fix and you know what, it will work like anything if by repetition a dog learns that it can no longer do something it often stops, that doesn't mean it respects you, it means it understands cause and effect.

[persephone]

yeah - it's an interesting discussion ...

I do agree with the personal space thing , and from the bits I've read from mark Singer .. cuddles/being on furniture etc are all fine , provided the initiation comes from the human , not the dog.

isn't it just 'good manners' ?

In most cases your dog is not trying to dominate you

In most cases your dog is not looking to 'dominate' you, in actual fact it is rare. Your dog is only reacting to the way you interact with it. You teach your dog how to react with you, family members, and visitors. Be a leader your dog can respect by being consistent with discipline, and learn to read your dogs intent when interacting with it. Understand the rules of controlling personal space and assertive behaviours, and I assure you, you will gain a lot more respect from your dog.

[The Spotted Devil]

My Spaniels climb into my lap, curl up on my feet and snuggle on my pillow uninvited. Dog forbid they don't even get "disciplined" whatever the hell that is. Yet take Em into the field and she explodes into the most incredible working dog. No lack of connection or attention. Go figure!

Edited May 17, 2016 by The Spotted Devil

[persephone]

My Spaniels climb into my lap, curl up on my feet and snuggle on my pillow uninvited. Dog forbid they don't even get "disciplined" whatever the hell that is. Yet take Em into the field and she explodes into the most incredible working dog. No lack of connection or attention. Go figure!

:) slightly OT - do have any videos of Em working ?

[Steph M]

I don't want myself to be the ONLY source of joy and comfort for the dogs, they're allowed on the furniture here and if they want a pat they come get it. All I ask is if I tell them to go 'out' which we use as out of my personal space or 'off' they do it. And they do. So as they were! Haha

[persephone]

yeah - it's an interesting discussion ...

I do agree with the personal space thing , and from the bits I've read from mark Singer .. cuddles/being on furniture etc are all fine , provided the initiation comes from the human , not the dog.

isn't it just 'good manners' ?

In most cases your dog is not trying to dominate you

In most cases your dog is not looking to 'dominate' you, in actual fact it is rare. Your dog is only reacting to the way you interact with it. You teach your dog how to react with you, family members, and visitors. Be a leader your dog can respect by being consistent with discipline, and learn to read your dogs intent when interacting with it. Understand the rules of controlling personal space and assertive behaviours, and I assure you, you will gain a lot more respect from your dog.

I didn't say that Mark says that they can't be on the couch or have pats, only what you said about it all being to by invitation only and not initiated by the dog. I'm not sure why it's considered bad manners for a dog to approach you and want to cuddle or to sit on the couch with you, provided they listen when you say no or when you've had enough and want them to get down? I don't make the friends and family in my life wait to be invited to give me a hug or kiss and don't think it's bad manners when they do initiate affection with me. I might think it's bad manners if a stranger does it though. And yes, I know dogs aren't people, I just fail to see what's rude or disrespectful about my dog jumping on the couch and putting his head on my lap fo let me know he'd like some affection, or leaning on me or sitting on my lap when he's frightened or upset?

Back when we had the consultation when I was told about the no leaning, asking for pats, getting on furniture etc I was a novice dog owner and still thought Cesar Millan was something to aspire to, so implemented what I was told to do and it wasn't enjoyable for either of us. Sure, my dog stopped approaching me, stopped getting on the furniture, stopped walking through doorways ahead of me and stopped moving ahead of me on walks, but the cost was an unhappy human, an unhappy dog and a somewhat damaged relationship.

:) I can understand how awful that would have been for both of you .... you are so good for each other .

Not that I enforce it at all times ..but guess it resonates with me as it's basically what I've been taught for a half century , * old habits die hard* ? :)

I love cuddles from dogs & cat etc , just that it's usually my decision as to when & where . Obviously, a frightened /injured dog is a very different scenario :)

[BlaznHotAussies]

My dogs are allowed in our bedroom only if we say (because it's carpet) and we have to invite them onto the couch so that a blanket can be put down before they hop up. Oh and there's also the back gate - if they want to come with me to hang out the washing they can't push through the gate because 3 dogs plus human holding a washing basket doesn't fit at once so they have to all sit (or stand if they're a show dog) while I go through the gate then they're allowed through. I'm extra mean, whoever pushes through before they're allowed gets left in the yard while everyone else plays (no idea if they connect rushing through with being left and they probably don't, but it seemed to work for the next load of washing!).

The other stuff to do with "who goes first" like where the dog is on walks is just waffle to me, I'd never enjoy going for walks if my dogs all had to walk behind me - I love watching them run around chasing rabbits & sniffing around.

[korbin13]

I teach personal space to my dogs for risk aversion, nothing to do with dominance.

In the past I've had dogs with no awareness that I have a cup of tea on the lounge and just jump up, lol. So all dogs are invited up, as well as waiting for a command to go through doors and gates. But there is no reason that those things can't be taught in a fun and positive way.

On leash dogs must walk calmly beside me as it makes my walks much more enjoyable. Off leash and on long lines they can go nuts as long as the stay in range.

I must admit that I'm not a fan of dogs begging for pets but that is just a personal thing. But once again this is taught in a positive, happy way. I have a dog that hates being pet on his side so I don't pet there, I don't see this as any different.

[persephone]

I teach personal space to my dogs for risk aversion, nothing to do with dominance.

In the past I've had dogs with no awareness that I have a cup of tea on the lounge and just jump up, lol. So all dogs are invited up, as well as waiting for a command to go through doors and gates. But there is no reason that those things can't be taught in a fun and positive way.

On leash dogs must walk calmly beside me as it makes my walks much more enjoyable. Off leash and on long lines they can go nuts as long as the stay in range.

I must admit that I'm not a fan of dogs begging for pets but that is just a personal thing. But once again this is taught in a positive, happy way. I have a dog that hates being pet on his side so I don't pet there, I don't see this as any different.

This too :)

a 'walk' onlead is just that . a walk - not playtime :)

[Loving my Oldies]

Actually there's a well regarded (and by no means bad) trainer up here who has the same kind of philosophy, even for dogs just needing some general manners and obedience training he says you cannot have them on the bed, walking in front of you etc because it means you aren't the "leader”.

These sorts of trainers should be banished. I imagine he is okay with the basics, but all this leader and dominance business has caused so much harm to dogs and owners.

So called Dr Cam by any chance?

[raineth]

Oh boy, when is dominance theory ever going to die? It doesn's seem to matter how disproven, or illogical it is, it just hangs around like a bad smell. It says so much more about us as a species than about dogs.

[BlaznHotAussies]

My FIL hates how my dogs are...ok...fairly feral... They don't walk with their nose on my heel, they sit in the cab of the ute with me, I give them cheese sausage from the Cafe, they're allowed in the stables and they're often either in the house or in the yard (not in runs or tied up).

I do remember one of my dogs doing something at their place, maybe staring at a (literally feral) cat intensely and my MIL did the "Sst" *poke* thing like CM does pretty unnecessary.