For All The Unethical (But Responsible) Dog Owners ...

[Dame Aussie]

You aren't getting fined for having an entire bitch. People are getting discounts for desexing their dogs. Here it is $100 for a desexed dog for lifetime registration. Lifetime registration is also a discount to encourage more people to register their dogs.

No lifetime rego in Vic. $114 every year just because she isn't desexed. It's ridiculous

[juice]

I assume you are joking when you say rescuing dogs from the pound only increases the problem.

If you are not, im saying nothing more other than WTF , you have even less of a clue than i thought.And i would get banned for telling you what i really thought

Edited May 11, 2016 by juice

[Willem]

Here's my take on part of the problem for homeless dogs and rescue groups and why council registration rates are like this, trying to curb the creation of potentially homeless dogs in the first place. People who deliberately mate their dogs to make some money don't care where those puppies go and I believe it is highly likely the wrong dog in the wrong home is a reason for a percentage of surrenders or dogs who end up at the pound and don't get picked up by their owners. These 'breeders' of undesexed dogs don't care about the future of the puppy they have bred but the money. Then you have the oops litters and once the owners have worked out they can't palm off a 'cute puppy' to friends, family, neighbours or give them away on Gumtree they get surrendered. These people have no clue how to work out what is the right home for that dog and just keep their fingers crossed someone doesn't try to return one. They didn't want them in the first place so they certainly don't put much effort into finding the right home - they look for any home. These puppies have no value to anyone and are the true unwanted. Enforced desexing (or by hitting an owner in the hip pocket) could have an impact on these two scenarios, making it hard for deliberate back yard breeding and harder for accidental matings.

But I think education is also missing if we want to reduce the over production of unneeded dogs, inappropriate purchasing and dumping cycle. Many people seem quite clueless about owning entire dogs, wouldn't have a clue their girl was in season until after she had escaped from the yard or even imagine the creative ways a dog will access a bitch. Loads of people in rescue have heard the stories from people who own an entire male and an undesexed female in the same house - "I never thought a brother/sister or mother/son would mate together!" or "I only took my eye off them both for a minute!". Many of us have also heard the hilarious "She should have one litter first!"!

So educate about the pros, cons and risks of desexing and not desexing, include financial information regarding the cost of desexing (some people think it costs too much to even consider) and also the cost of whelping and rehoming a litter and raising a dog from puppyhood for its entire life. Give people the information so they can be responsible for all their dogs needs. Create incentives for responsible ownership and create barriers for irresponsible deliberate breeding and selling. Make those effers go and get real jobs!

How do they find their customers?...gumtree, newspapers I guess?...therefore they could be easily identified and made liable for future costings if the dog ends up in the pound. Or you could fine them straight on the spot if they are not registered breeders...

wrt education: sometimes I get the impression that de-sexing is done to ease the search for new owners and not for preventing off-springs: it is sold as a no worry package ...no worries about the mess a bitch can make - she's de-sexed. Looks soooo easy to own a dog. And then the people find out that taking care of a dog is - despite that she is de-sexed - a lot of work: dog requires training, walks etc....dog gets neglected ...dog becomes problematic ...dog gets surrendered. People should be educated that it is not easy but a big responsibility and that they should think twice before they decide to get a dog! Yes, it will make it more difficult to rehome dogs but might lead to more responsible owners in the long term.

It seems also hypocritical that we prohibit cropping of ears and tails (which has actually less negative impacts on the dog's health), but removing the uterus is not only ok, but even promoted to address our desire for convenience.

[Willem]

I assume you are joking when you say rescuing dogs from the pound only increases the problem.

If you are not, im saying nothing more other than WTF , you have even less of a clue than i thought.And i would get banned for telling you what i really thought

if you would have read the first sentence in my first post you would have recognised that this thread is not meant for you :) ...rehoming dogs to owners not able to address the needs (there are enough threads here on this forum giving evidence of owners who can't address the needs of rescue dogs) won't stop irresponsible breeding and will worsen the situation, and the more dogs you save the more they (the irresponsible breeders) will breed to replace the ones that just left the pounds...

Edited May 11, 2016 by Willem

[Rebanne]

Basically you are just whinging cause you have to pay more for your entire dog then someone else has to pay for their desexed dog. BooHoo

[CHA]

So if they are forced to get their dogs desexed, the irresponsible breeders will not be able to breed... Hence higher registration fees being a start.

[Willem]

Basically you are just whinging cause you have to pay more for your entire dog then someone else has to pay for their desexed dog. BooHoo

...not really, I actually believe that the money I had to pay more will make a very good investment for the sake of my dog's health. However, I believe that there is something wrong if people think de-sexing is ok and needs to be promoted - and the same people would hit you with a hefty fine if you would crop the tail of your dog. As long as it doesn't cause any inconvenience for us we are pretty quick shouting 'that's animal cruelty'...but otherwise - despite significant health impacts - the majority is pretty keen to use surgical procedures to adapt animals to the needs of humans.

Edited May 11, 2016 by Willem

[Willem]

So if they are forced to get their dogs desexed, the irresponsible breeders will not be able to breed... Hence higher registration fees being a start.

I'm not a breeder and don't envisage to breed - conversely a breeder just breeding for money won't give a damn and if he / she really registers her bitch she/he will even try harder to get more puppies out of her to pay for the loss...

Eta: just looked it up: a recognized breeder has to pay actually only AU$ 51 ...instead of the AU$ 188 I have to pay...which is ok - the problem seems to be the not registered ones, and the current approach doesn't do much to improve the situation.

Edited May 11, 2016 by Willem

[stellnme]

Unfortunately, Willem, it's not the majority who are pretty keen to use surgical procedures - and I wish it was, but those who choose to desex do it in many cases to protect their animals from health problems, including not having to go through pregnancy and birth with the associated risks. I've been involved in desexing programs for years and the people who took advantage of a bit of help to desex their pets,overwhelmingly genuinely cared about them and realised that the animals would be better off being desexed and taking away the problems of escaping (or other dogs coming into the yard), being hit by cars or being mated and then they have puppies to find homes for. They are the responsible ones. In my experience the vast majority of owners of oops litters give them away to neighbours, relatives, friends or the first person to put their hand up - and so the cycle continues.

Good for you that you are responsible and look after your dog seemingly very well, but many people don't.

In answer to your point that desexing causes health problems, all of my dogs and cats, except one who had to be put to sleep at 10 years, have lived very long and quite healthy lives - 17, 18 years on average. I have seen many horrific health problems in undesexed dogs, though.

When I take on an animal I also take on all the costs associated with owning that animal and if the place I live in requires x amount for registration, that's what I pay - otherwise I wouldn't have an animal. Anything that encourages people to desex their animals (and I'm talking about the general public here - not good breeders or people like you), will only benefit the animal.

[flame ryder]

So isn't it going to become a rule in SA to de-sex all dogs unless you are a registered breeder? There was a huge argument on FB a while ago about it. I haven't heard anymore since. I'm not sure if the new law is even coming in or if it's just a rumour? I am totally against it.

All 3 of my dogs are de-sexed but I prefer to choose to do that rather than being told I have to, encourage people, don't MAKE them...arghh don't get me started!!!

I also committed the huge sin of buying one of my dogs from a Gumtree add. Didn't someone want to ban that too?

Edited May 11, 2016 by flame ryder

[Steph M]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I will never ever judge someone for desexing their pet if they do not wish to or are not able to manage an entire dog.

Frankly I never batted an eyelid at the extra cost before Gus was desexed. I made a choice, I was happy with my choice and I paid more for it.

I believe the education programs and benefits for people to desex pets are great. Most pets owned by the general public SHOULD be desexed or sterilised.

[Purdie]

It is up to the owner if they desex or not and some dogs cope better than others through the heat.

Myself i would always desex my dog if not intending to breed because..

A ...Will not have the mess and smell.

B...Not have every stray dog for miles trying to get into my property or my dog trying hard to escape.

C...Risk of accidental mating as if it did occur i would not terminate due to my personal beliefs.

If rescues did not try to rescue or help as many dogs as they can then many more animals would be disposed of in shocking ways.

I believe many dogs end up in the pound because the owners chose the wrong breed for their situation or find they are unable to train the dog

and can't cope with problem behaviors and do not seek help for whatever reason..

[Willem]

Unfortunately, Willem, it's not the majority who are pretty keen to use surgical procedures - and I wish it was, but those who choose to desex do it in many cases to protect their animals from health problems, including not having to go through pregnancy and birth with the associated risks. I've been involved in desexing programs for years and the people who took advantage of a bit of help to desex their pets,overwhelmingly genuinely cared about them and realised that the animals would be better off being desexed and taking away the problems of escaping (or other dogs coming into the yard), being hit by cars or being mated and then they have puppies to find homes for. They are the responsible ones. In my experience the vast majority of owners of oops litters give them away to neighbours, relatives, friends or the first person to put their hand up - and so the cycle continues.

Good for you that you are responsible and look after your dog seemingly very well, but many people don't.

In answer to your point that desexing causes health problems, all of my dogs and cats, except one who had to be put to sleep at 10 years, have lived very long and quite healthy lives - 17, 18 years on average. I have seen many horrific health problems in undesexed dogs, though.

When I take on an animal I also take on all the costs associated with owning that animal and if the place I live in requires x amount for registration, that's what I pay - otherwise I wouldn't have an animal. Anything that encourages people to desex their animals (and I'm talking about the general public here - not good breeders or people like you), will only benefit the animal.

...appreciate you post, and I have no problems if people - once informed about all the pro and cons - make their own decision. However it seems that recent studies about the negative impacts of de-sexing getting still ignored and I doubt that many owners of de-sexed dogs are aware of the potential health risks.

I have some problems if terms like 'heating cycles', or even 'pregnancy' etc. is used in the same context like diseases - it is not a disease but a biological process mother nature designed for propagation!...and mother nature is usually pretty good with her designs...yes, there are associated risks, but I still believe more damage is done to dogs by feeding the wrong food than by letting a bitch having a normal heat cycle. I don't mind the 2-3 weeks bleeding - at least it will stop while spay incontinence might last a life time. And a bitch in season is absolutely manageable without having unwanted pregnancies.

If someone thinks it is better for his/her dog to get de-sexed: I respect this, but I have problems if someone is telling me that I - or anyone else - have to de-sex the own dog too because it is the only 'ethical' thing to do.

[Dame Aussie]

I don't judge people for choosing to desex at all. It's an individual decision on what's best for the person and their dog/s. I do feel that vets can be quite one sided in risk/benefit discussions but I understand why and in many cases it's probably for the best.

I do wish there were more accessible options than major surgery.

[Steph M]

I don't judge people for choosing to desex at all. It's an individual decision on what's best for the person and their dog/s. I do feel that vets can be quite one sided in risk/benefit discussions but I understand why and in many cases it's probably for the best.

I do wish there were more accessible options than major surgery.

Agree! Especially with that last part! Be nice to see those other options publicised and pushed a bit more.

I guess its a catch 22, no ones willing to try it, vets don't get experience and don't think to suggest it much.

[JulesP]

Having just dealt with pyometra, my position on de-sexing has changed a bit. I would always de-sex now. Pyometra is frigging nasty. I have had no problems with any de-sexed animal - cats, dogs & horses oh and a steer!

[Leah82]

1. 
   
2. unregistered back-yard breeders
   
3. puppy mills
   
4. mass production via registered breeders
   
5. owners who let their dog have 'this one litter'...or two...
   
6. accidents from dogs not de-sexed
   

Firstly the bolded groups above are all one in the same.

Secondly I'm really confused as to how you come to the following conclusion...

Furthermore, it is very likely that actually the desperate efforts, trying to rescue every dog possible, contributes heavily to the indeed unethical breeding culture: as long as there are some kind of takers, irresponsible breeders will keep on going fueling the market!...in other words: the more dogs you save, the more they breed...

You made some vague mention of BYBers "replacing" pound dogs because they are going to rescue?!

You're kidding yourself if you think irresponsible and unregistered breeders have any knowledge of their dogs ending up in the pound to being with let alone have any idea if they go to rescue or are destroyed.

Rescues are 3 steps away from the typical BYBer (BYBer > First Owner > Pound > Rescue) which means any link you try and make is tenuous at best.

You'll actually find that as rescue's are providing another option when it comes to sourcing a pet that there are therefore less people looking for cheap BYB puppies

[westiemum]

I second that Jules - pyometra is really nasty and I see no point in putting oldies at risk if it can be avoided.

[Dogdragon]

Well I have to wade in on this one as I am faced with this issue at the moment. My council have the following on their website:

Animal Registration

Microchip Your Pet

The Companion Animals Act 1998 makes it compulsory to microchip all puppies and kittens by 12 weeks of age and registered by 6 months of age. Any dogs or cats who change owners need to be microchipped and registered. Microchipped animals are registered on the NSW Companion Animals Register. Owner information needs to be kept up to date. Contact Council if you need to change any details.

How Much Does Registration Cost?

Lifetime registration on the NSW Companion Animals Register is available from Blue Mountains City Council. This is a one off payment and the animal is registered for life, anywhere in New South Wales.

Current Registration Fees:

• $192 for undesexed dog or cat

• $52 for a dog or cat owned by a registered breeder that is kept for breeding purposes

• $52 for a desexed dog or cat

• $21 for a desexed dog or cat owned by a pensioner

• FREE for an Assitance Animal or Working Dog

http://www.bmcc.nsw.gov.au/yourcommunity/animalcontrol/animalregistration/

$192 for an undesexed dog or cat......What do I get for it?.....I get that its to do with stopping unwanted litters but it doesn't stop this.......Doesn't stop it.....Puppy mills, pet shop owners don't have to outlay this cost, they keep breeding, only the pet owner has to pay. Yes it encourages pet owners to desex but it seems to me that this is simply revenue raising. What if I want to show my male dog with unlimited registration paper? I cant show a male dog that has been desexed (not sure about a bitch).

Responsible pet owners are paying for the irresponsible ones. The fee structure doesn't seem to do anything for the issue of unwanted dogs and cats.

[Steve]

Well I have to wade in on this one as I am faced with this issue at the moment. My council have the following on their website:

Animal Registration

Microchip Your Pet

The Companion Animals Act 1998 makes it compulsory to microchip all puppies and kittens by 12 weeks of age and registered by 6 months of age. Any dogs or cats who change owners need to be microchipped and registered. Microchipped animals are registered on the NSW Companion Animals Register. Owner information needs to be kept up to date. Contact Council if you need to change any details.

How Much Does Registration Cost?

Lifetime registration on the NSW Companion Animals Register is available from Blue Mountains City Council. This is a one off payment and the animal is registered for life, anywhere in New South Wales.

Current Registration Fees:

• $192 for undesexed dog or cat

• $52 for a dog or cat owned by a registered breeder that is kept for breeding purposes

• $52 for a desexed dog or cat

• $21 for a desexed dog or cat owned by a pensioner

• FREE for an Assitance Animal or Working Dog

http://www.bmcc.nsw....alregistration/

$192 for an undesexed dog or cat......What do I get for it?.....I get that its to do with stopping unwanted litters but it doesn't stop this.......Doesn't stop it.....Puppy mills, pet shop owners don't have to outlay this cost, they keep breeding, only the pet owner has to pay. Yes it encourages pet owners to desex but it seems to me that this is simply revenue raising. What if I want to show my male dog with unlimited registration paper? I cant show a male dog that has been desexed (not sure about a bitch).

Responsible pet owners are paying for the irresponsible ones. The fee structure doesn't seem to do anything for the issue of unwanted dogs and cats.

Once a dog is registered as a potential breeding dog for $52 by a registered breeder even after it changes hands and goes to someone who will not be breeding there is no more cost . I pay the $52 to register all of my puppies which are going to NSW owners with my local council before I send them home. The ones that are going out for working in NSW have free registration too.

It seems to me the puppies aren't the problem. Even in cases where a pregnant girl or a young litter comes into rescue they are in high demand by rescue groups to take and their puppies are more easily sold for a higher price.

It doesn't take much energy for anyone to sell puppies to new owners who present as people who will look after their dog and be responsible for it.

Its the owners who have life changing situations, who cant stand the dog because it doesn't match their expectations, or basically people who see them as they see everything else - easily replaceable.

Until the real stats are available we all just guess as to where they come from and who could be held more responsible. No matter how hard a breeder or a rescue tries to screen em, educate them, or support them the final onus for responsibility of looking after a dog is on the owner .

Like Willem I don't believe there should be a system that rewards people for desexing their dogs over other responsible behaviours . How many desexed dogs are dumped?

All of the studies including the one via the ACT where desexing is mandatory show that it doesn't change one little dot the numbers dumped - it does change the numbers of desexed dogs dumped.

A government should not take the place of educated decisions made between an owner and their vet and all responsible behaviours should be rewarded .