For All The Unethical (But Responsible) Dog Owners ...

[Steve]

So how do you increase the numbers of registered breeders?

[Willem]

@DogDragon

Thanks - fair comments.

The whole thread started because I wondered why desexing is so heavily promoted in Australia - and one reason you hear from the desexing lobby all the time are full pounds and overpopulation. I took the risk and ask the question whether the pounds are really full and whether there is really a problem with overpopulation, and of course got shot down in flames - e.g. see post #95.

No comprehensive stats and contradicting information from different sides - a challenging topic, glad we agree regarding the last point, which also implies (correct me if I'm wrong) that desexing is not the silver bullet for the real problem and can't be a replacement for a more transparent registration that would allow to control numbers.

[YOLO]

I still cannot believe all the people who have been BRAINWASHED into drinking the sterilisation kool-aid.

I even had a supposedly "renowned" breeder tell we that she insisted all bitches be sterilised because "it reduces ovarian cancer by 90%"

Really not sure how the other 10% managed to get cancer in a part of their body they nolonger had?

When we were purchasing our latest bitch. I was actually concerned and started a thread on Pyro. I expected to be inundated with horror stories, because apparently every unsterilised bitch will get pyro almost immediately and almost die. Yes its a horrible disease, and I suppose that if you're worried that you won't detect when your bitch is sick, then removing troublesome body parts might be a good option.

I have owned 4 Flatties. 2 dogs, and 2 bitches. One of each was entire, and the others were sterilised because they were re-homes. Guess which ones had all the development problems.

There are literally NO good reasons to castrate a male dog. It's amazing that in an era when people are protesting the routine castration of male livestock, people thinks its a good thing for their pets.

For starters, even if ALL our dogs were running wild, castrating males has no effect on population. That's biology 101. (Ironically, that's why male livestock are castrated, because you only need ONE Bull or Ram to service an entire herd.)

Castration does not stop humping. That's simply a training matter. My entire dog was trained out of it at an early age. Our castrated re-home still did it when we got him, and had to be re-trained.

Depriving your dog of Testosterone is cruel and can lead to stunted growth, and a variety of developmental issues.

Yes, if you start with an overly "aggressive" dog (such as one bred for security work or fighting) then castration can settle them down. But hey, maybe just buy a different dog?

Bitches are a tougher question.

Pyro IS an issue (just not the certainty some would have you believe.)

As is mammary cancer.

And yes, it can only take one bastard dog climbing your back fence to have an unwanted litter of mongrels.

The problem of too many dogs in pounds and getting euthanased is a complicated one.

I have not completed any grand study, so I can only base my opinions on logic, my own observations, and some inferences. (But I still think my views are just as valid as those who blindly proclaim that "overpopulation" is caused by YOU not sterilising your dog.)

There is a terrible industry of puppy mills and BYBs churning out puppies for the petstore and gumtree market. It turns my stomach to think what happens to the cute puppies in the window, when they are nolonger cute, and its time for the new batch.

Added to that, the way some people treat their dogs as things they can simply throw away when they are bored of them, is sickening.

When we got our dogs, we spent a lot of time looking in pounds and havens. Not sure what its like elsewhere, but when we looked it seemed that 90% of the dogs were some form of Staffy or Kelpie cross. Probably very cute as puppies, but completely unsuited to high-density urban living.

To my way of thinking, the solution lies firstly in encouraging and enforcing a more responsible attitude towards dog ownership.

ie: Don't buy cute puppies, look to the adult dog you want to own.

Dogs are for LIFE, not till you have to move house or get a partner.

Don't support BYBs or puppy-mills.

Always consider the needs of the dog, not just the plaything you want for a couple of hours a day.

Buy a dog that is suited to your environment and lifestyle.

And secondly on clamping down on the BYBs and puppy mills.

Edited May 26, 2016 by Big D

[JulesP]

When we were purchasing our latest bitch. I was actually concerned and started a thread on Pyro. I expected to be inundated with horror stories, because apparently every unsterilised bitch will get pyro almost immediately and almost die. Yes its a horrible disease, and I suppose that if you're worried that you won't detect when your bitch is sick, then removing troublesome body parts might be a good option.

The symptoms of pyometra are actually rather subtle. That people wouldn't pick it up straight away would not surprise me. And if the pyometra was closed then that could prove a massive risk to the bitch.

So I suggest people learn the symptoms if they have an entire bitch.

My bitch was just off her food. No decrease in energy etc. And she then started to lick her bits more than normal. She didn't even have a high temp.

[Steve]

40 years always entire girls never once had pyometra.

However,after my seventh baby I had a good bout of pyometra myself. Agony and I really did think I might die

[Willem]

...maybe one day our kids will ask whether the entire male dog that just walked by is sick because they think the balls are tumors hanging out of the bum...or how many dog owners here still know the first signs when an entire bitch comes into heat?...I walk our dog even when she is on heat, now sometimes we meet other dog walkers and when I mentioned to them - from a distance - that I can't let her off the leash for a play today because she is on heat their facial expression tells me that they think I must be crazy....I never had an incident, problems to keep other dogs away and the like. And no, there are no straying dogs queueing up in front of our house either. Of course this will also depend on where you live - in a neighbourhood with a lot of straying dogs it might happen that you find the ocasssional male sniffing in front of your house. I don't take her to the obedience and agility training, dog parks etc. etc. while she is on heat...no off-leash outside the house or backyard...but that's it.

...and yes, owners who think desexing would stop their male from humping other dogs - keep dreaming :D ....

Edited May 27, 2016 by Willem

[JulesP]

Something people could watch for, prior to the bitch actually getting pyometra would be weird seasons. Or barely there seasons. Amber's have always been odd, which may be her or may be her other condition (liver shunts). I don't know if there is any connection with her other condition and Pyometra as dogs with her condition don't tend to live long enough for it to become a problem. Whilst her bloods aren't normal they aren't really tragic and she isn't prone to getting other sicknesses. Of course other dogs could be operated on with less stress.

[workcocker1983]

...maybe one day our kids will ask whether the entire male dog that just walked by is sick because they think the balls are tumors hanging out of the bum...or how many dog owners here still know the first signs when an entire bitch comes into heat?...I walk our dog even when she is on heat, now sometimes we meet other dog walkers and when I mentioned to them - from a distance - that I can't let her off the leash for a play today because she is on heat their facial expression tells me that they think I must be crazy....I never had an incident, problems to keep other dogs away and the like. And no, there are no straying dogs queueing up in front of our house either. Of course this will also depend on where you live - in a neighbourhood with a lot of straying dogs it might happen that you find the ocasssional male sniffing in front of your house. I don't take her to the obedience and agility training, dog parks etc. etc. while she is on heat...no off-leash outside the house or backyard...but that's it.

...and yes, owners who think desexing would stop their male from humping other dogs - keep dreaming :D ....

If you you were walking towards me and told me that uour bitch was in season you would get a mouthful of not very nice words! Part of the responsibility of keeping you bitch entire is leaving her at home when she is in season. Walking a bitch in season even on a lead in a public place is irresponsible and asking for trouble.

[Willem]

...maybe one day our kids will ask whether the entire male dog that just walked by is sick because they think the balls are tumors hanging out of the bum...or how many dog owners here still know the first signs when an entire bitch comes into heat?...I walk our dog even when she is on heat, now sometimes we meet other dog walkers and when I mentioned to them - from a distance - that I can't let her off the leash for a play today because she is on heat their facial expression tells me that they think I must be crazy....I never had an incident, problems to keep other dogs away and the like. And no, there are no straying dogs queueing up in front of our house either. Of course this will also depend on where you live - in a neighbourhood with a lot of straying dogs it might happen that you find the ocasssional male sniffing in front of your house. I don't take her to the obedience and agility training, dog parks etc. etc. while she is on heat...no off-leash outside the house or backyard...but that's it.

...and yes, owners who think desexing would stop their male from humping other dogs - keep dreaming :D ....

If you you were walking towards me and told me that uour bitch was in season you would get a mouthful of not very nice words! Part of the responsibility of keeping you bitch entire is leaving her at home when she is in season. Walking a bitch in season even on a lead in a public place is irresponsible and asking for trouble.

...just to clarify: the trouble is coming from responsible people like you or from other dogs or from what?????...if you can't control your dog because he senses a bitch on heat, rest assured I can...

Eta:

...when I walk our dog and she is in season, of course I try to avoid any encounter with other dogs and there is no socializing with other dogs no matter whether male / female, no dog parks, off leash areas, crowded areas etc.. If other dog walkers approach, I change side of the road etc...if they want to come closer, they get the warning - it worked for the last 40 years. If an owner of a male dog can't control his dog despite early warnings and keeping distance, I doubt that he can control his dog in case a cat or other animal is crossing his way triggering the dog's prey drive (which can happen without warning) - any owner should always be able to control his own dog in public - no matter what the distractions might be!...if an owner can't do this, then he should stay at home with his dog!

Edited May 27, 2016 by Willem

[mumtoshelley]

does that make me a irresponsible dog owner cause all my dogs are desexed? I own 2 females and 2 males. I choose to desex cause I wasn't interested in breeding and cause I didn't want to risk problems.

[_PL_]

does that make me a irresponsible dog owner cause all my dogs are desexed? I own 2 females and 2 males. I choose to desex cause I wasn't interested in breeding and cause I didn't want to risk problems.

No it doesn't.

Edited May 27, 2016 by Powerlegs

[Willem]

does that make me a irresponsible dog owner cause all my dogs are desexed? I own 2 females and 2 males. I choose to desex cause I wasn't interested in breeding and cause I didn't want to risk problems.

of course not!...I guess it was anyway a more rhetorical question...there are always scenarios where desexing might be the best available option - you have 2 males, 2 females so desexing could really help to increase the quality of their life (less need for crating, significant less problems to walk them...). If you read through the whole thread you will recognize that it is about the - IMO - false recommendation that desxing is the sole cure for the pound problems, overpopulation, health and behaviour issues...

[mumtoshelley]

I do agree with you in some point but if the dog or bitch isn't a good quality of its breed it should be desexed, All crossbreeds should be desexed too. In my area the pound is full most of the time,mostly crossbreeds. But in saying that I remember the old days where crossbreeds where free to good home now people are asking the same amount if not more for a crossbreed then a purebred.

[ish]

Something people could watch for, prior to the bitch actually getting pyometra would be weird seasons. Or barely there seasons. Amber's have always been odd, which may be her or may be her other condition (liver shunts). I don't know if there is any connection with her other condition and Pyometra as dogs with her condition don't tend to live long enough for it to become a problem. Whilst her bloods aren't normal they aren't really tragic and she isn't prone to getting other sicknesses. Of course other dogs could be operated on with less stress.

My old girl, who was bred from, and my sisters old girl (never bred) were kept entire into their older years - neither of us had any great plans to have them desexed. I had really always intended to have my girl done but as she got older and surgery became more of a risk, I decided against it. Then both these dogs at about age 9 started to have strange seasons, more frequent, heavier or split seasons - basically things started going wrong and the pyo chance increased. Both were desexed at age 10 and what a relief to not have to worry about that anymore in much loved older dogs. Both had significant cysts on their ovaries. My sisters dog has had a mammary strip to remove a growth on one side but thankfully at 12.5 and 11 years old they're well and happy.

So, you can be as careful as you like with management but you can't control everything.

[sandgrubber]

The trouble with desexing programs is that the people who most need to use them don't. At least in some places, the number of dogs increases faster than the number of decent homes for dogs.

Desexing is heavily pushed where I live (Florida) and subsidized desexing is widely available. Free for low income people . . . $80 for people with decent incomes.

Pit bulls are THE garden variety dog. Walk around a semi-rural neighborhood and you'll see a lot of pits some chihuahuas and doxies, and an occasional hound or Lab. Pits tend to be very fertile . . . 10+ pups is common. For the most part, pups go for $100 to $200. Even at these low prices, people still view having a litter as a way of picking up a little cash, and the pounds and shelters are still full of pits and pit X's.

It's regional. In the US, the South is generally a puppy surplus area, while the North and West import pups.

[Dogdragon]

Steve wrote:

So how do you increase the numbers of registered breeders?

Seriously Steve, my view is it has to be through licensing. If you don’t legislate this then people will always take the path of least resistance. The ACT has already done it and the rest of the country needs to.

Domestic Animals Act 2000

Republication No 30

Effective: 24 May 2016

Republication date: 24 May 2016

Division 3.1 Controlling breeding

72 Offence—breeding dog or cats without licence

(1) A person commits an offence if the person—

(a) is a keeper or carer of a female dog or cat; and

(b) breeds a litter from the dog or cat for profit or commercial

gain; and

© does not hold a breeding licence.

Maximum penalty: 50 penalty units.

(2) An offence against this section is a strict liability offence.

http://www.legislation.act.gov.au/a/2000-86/current/pdf/2000-86.pdf

Willem wrote:

@DogDragon

Thanks - fair comments.

The whole thread started because I wondered why desexing is so heavily promoted in Australia - and one reason you hear from the desexing lobby all the time are full pounds and overpopulation. I took the risk and ask the question whether the pounds are really full and whether there is really a problem with overpopulation, and of course got shot down in flames - e.g. see post #95.

No comprehensive stats and contradicting information from different sides - a challenging topic, glad we agree regarding the last point, which also implies (correct me if I'm wrong) that desexing is not the silver bullet for the real problem and can't be a replacement for a more transparent registration that would allow to control numbers.

Well I agree that desexing is not the silver bullet to a so called over population issue because there isnt one. I am personally with you in that for me, as a responsible dog owner, desexing is not my preferred option however, I do feel that the desexing program is a good even omitting the issue of overpopulation. There are large social issues involved in undesexed dogs……Do I need to go there? Happy to if need be but ……..isnt it obvious?

I agree that there needs to be some sort of system where by responsible dog owners are not penalized for having undesexed dogs. Hell some mothers cant even supervise their childred, excuse, they are so fast, you only have to take your eyes off them for a moment.........my dogs have never escaped my control.....

[Steve]

I didn't mean council registered breeders. Having a whole bunch of people who are frightened by the scoff laws who get a licence or register as breeders with council doesn't mean you get quality animals being bred sold to those who are most suited to the pup.

Licensing can mean huge commercial kennels and less hobby breeders. I meant registered with a canine association breeding purebred pedigreed dogs and as the discussion was about current rules with Dogs NSW about obtaining prefix I assumed the conversation was not around council registered.

[Dogdragon]

Well I think licensing will bring the breeder one step closer to that. If you want a breeders licence and your dog has papers then you need to be a registered breeder with your state body.

[Steve]

Well I think licensing will bring the breeder one step closer to that. If you want a breeders licence and your dog has papers then you need to be a registered breeder with your state body.

There will never be a situation where you NEED to be registered with an ANKC state body unless you want to show dogs in ANKC recognised events and'/ or if you want to provide ANKC registered pedigrees with your puppies. Both of these are voluntary and always will be.

A licence requirement in NSW would never see an increase in registered ANKC breeders.

In Victoria exemptions on needing a licence are given to people who are Vicdogs members and who own under 10 dogs [that cant happen in NSW] - sure they may have picked up a few member numbers because of this but why would a group of people want people in that group with them who only joined so they dont have to get a licence rather than because they share their philosophy? Whats the point in having more registered breeders if they are there simply to scam the system? Some dont even own a purebred dog.

Take a good look at the number and size of licensed commercial breeders in Victoria - most of who sell high numbers to pet shops - be careful what you ask for if your goal is to have more small breeders breeding purebred registered dogs placed in homes considered to be suited the dog and with after sales support.

How do we get more registered breeders and how do we stop dogs being dumped is not about introducing licensing.

[Dogdragon]

Steve wrote

There will never be a situation where you NEED to be registered with an ANKC state body unless you want to show dogs in ANKC recognised events and'/ or if you want to provide ANKC registered pedigrees with your puppies. Both of these are voluntary and always will be.

Well, first of all, says who? When the debate of licensing first came up, it was opposed by various state canine associations with the argument being “our members are already licensed”. True, but, it would seem that there is some common ground in the licensing of non registered breeders…….

Steve wrote

Dogs NSW breeders are already licensed by Dogs NSW and members must pass an examination before being accredited by Dogs NSW. Dogs NSW members abide by a strict and enforceable Code of Ethics.

So couple of issues here:- First, whilst Dogs NSW breeders (and this applies nationwide) are in a sense licensed and have a requirement to adhere to a code of ethics, the fact is that there are no monetary or criminal penalties for non compliance. Second, is there a suggestion that there is one law for part of the dog breeding industry and exemptions for others? Doesn’t make any good sense.

The reality is Steve, some of these registered breeders of purebred dogs are in fact puppy mills……Are we suggesting that we ignore these with exemptions?

Steve wrote

A licence requirement in NSW would never see an increase in registered ANKC breeders.

In Victoria exemptions on needing a licence are given to people who are Vicdogs members and who own under 10 dogs [that cant happen in NSW] - sure they may have picked up a few member numbers because of this but why would a group of people want people in that group with them who only joined so they dont have to get a licence rather than because they share their philosophy?

Exactly! Whenever any sort of license is required there are standards and regulations that apply. We don’t simply issue a piece of paper to anyone who wants to breed…..Its not about numbers, its about animal welfare and reducing the numbers in pounds/shelters…..Its never going to be zero its only ever going to be at best reduced. The same codes and standards would apply to all breeders. Dogs NSW have already expressed this sentiment.

Dogs NSW welcomes the announcement of a NSW Parliamentary Inquiry into companion animal breeding practices and is opposed to puppy farming by unlicensed breeders.

In response to the announcement of the Inquiry by the NSW Minister for Primary Industries, Mr Niall Blair, Dogs NSW recommends that the breeding of all dogs be subject to the same Code of Ethics that its members must follow to ensure the health, well-being and integrity of puppies offered for sale.

You cant have it both ways…….There has to be some common ground here. If you want more members who hold the same philosophical POV then you either market for it or encourage people to that way of thinking by legislation. It really is a fine line between the carrot and the stick…..If the carrot doesn’t work then the stick needs to be applied in a manner where its not to constrictive.

Steve wroteHow do we get more registered breeders and how do we stop dogs being dumped is not about introducing licensing.

Actually it is Steve, a license would require the breeder to

• Adhere to a code of ethics and a breeding standard similar to that of Dogs NSW and the requirement for owners of dogs issued with papers that are to be bred to hold prefix’s before license issue.

• Limit the number of licenses issued??

• Limit the number of litters a bitch can have

• Increasing the space of confinement

• The requirement for vets to report

• Etc etc

There is scope for more control over the way dogs are treated. The ability to glean data on a host of issues surrounding the entire industry nation wide helping us better the treatment of animals and reduce shelter/pound number further. There would also be added benefits in other areas such as control on taxation/income plus more.