For All The Unethical (But Responsible) Dog Owners ...

[dog_fan]

But what's going to make all the people that don't abide by the current rules - all those who don't register their dogs, who breed without breeder permits, who sell or give away puppies without microchipping and below the minimum age, and those who buy from them without carrying about any of that and do the same things - follow more stringent rules?

And if councils/local governments aren't effectively enforcing the current rules so people get away with doing the above without any consequences, how or why are they going to enforce more stringent rules?

Seems to me it would be making it more difficult for the people who do the right thing, who are not the ones whose pets are causing problems and ending up left in pounds and shelters in significant numbers in my (hands on) experience, and the people doing the wrong thing will just continue to do the wrong things.

...usually you can't advertise an AK-47 on eBay, gumtree or over a newspaper (not so sure about Fakebook so) - obviously there are some measures in place that makes shopping for this type of goods pretty difficult. Why not applying those measures to dogs?...Ebay already doesn't allow the sales of dogs (and other pets). Once you start controlling the sales in this environment, you will get the registration numbers up.

I can't see that it would make it more difficult for people that want to do the right thing - for my own dog buying experience not much would have been different, beside that I would have had to send off application papers before we bought the dog.

This strategy will only push the sale of dogs underground with sellers finding other places to sell their puppies.

The people that are doing the right thing are not the problem, the problem is the people who are currently doing the wrong thing as they will continue to do the wrong thing

...underground means also higher costs (higher risks, higher fines...)...which will benefit the recognized and registered breeders. If I intend to buy a dog, why should I embark on such a risky business where I can get heavily fined and have to pay eventually even more for a dog if I can get my dog without this stress the legal way?

Regulation does not stop drink driving which is high risk and has high fines.

Regulation does not work.

..that's debatable ...I still believe that getting reminded of the hefty fines help some people to consider a plan B. Hefty fines are nothing else than 'positive punishment', losing the licence is 'negative punishment'...a little bit keen to state on a dog forum that those methods don't work.

Actually what changes behaviour is changing attitudes through education. It's the endless campaigns that cost plenty of money.

This

^^

[Willem]

But what's going to make all the people that don't abide by the current rules - all those who don't register their dogs, who breed without breeder permits, who sell or give away puppies without microchipping and below the minimum age, and those who buy from them without carrying about any of that and do the same things - follow more stringent rules?

And if councils/local governments aren't effectively enforcing the current rules so people get away with doing the above without any consequences, how or why are they going to enforce more stringent rules?

Seems to me it would be making it more difficult for the people who do the right thing, who are not the ones whose pets are causing problems and ending up left in pounds and shelters in significant numbers in my (hands on) experience, and the people doing the wrong thing will just continue to do the wrong things.

...usually you can't advertise an AK-47 on eBay, gumtree or over a newspaper (not so sure about Fakebook so) - obviously there are some measures in place that makes shopping for this type of goods pretty difficult. Why not applying those measures to dogs?...Ebay already doesn't allow the sales of dogs (and other pets). Once you start controlling the sales in this environment, you will get the registration numbers up.

I can't see that it would make it more difficult for people that want to do the right thing - for my own dog buying experience not much would have been different, beside that I would have had to send off application papers before we bought the dog.

This strategy will only push the sale of dogs underground with sellers finding other places to sell their puppies.

The people that are doing the right thing are not the problem, the problem is the people who are currently doing the wrong thing as they will continue to do the wrong thing

...underground means also higher costs (higher risks, higher fines...)...which will benefit the recognized and registered breeders. If I intend to buy a dog, why should I embark on such a risky business where I can get heavily fined and have to pay eventually even more for a dog if I can get my dog without this stress the legal way?

Regulation does not stop drink driving which is high risk and has high fines.

Regulation does not work.

..that's debatable ...I still believe that getting reminded of the hefty fines help some people to consider a plan B. Hefty fines are nothing else than 'positive punishment', losing the licence is 'negative punishment'...a little bit keen to state on a dog forum that those methods don't work.

Actually what changes behaviour is changing attitudes through education. It's the endless campaigns that cost plenty of money.

This

^^

education includes discussions, teaching, training ... and conditioning is part of training...

[The Spotted Devil]

But what's going to make all the people that don't abide by the current rules - all those who don't register their dogs, who breed without breeder permits, who sell or give away puppies without microchipping and below the minimum age, and those who buy from them without carrying about any of that and do the same things - follow more stringent rules?

And if councils/local governments aren't effectively enforcing the current rules so people get away with doing the above without any consequences, how or why are they going to enforce more stringent rules?

Seems to me it would be making it more difficult for the people who do the right thing, who are not the ones whose pets are causing problems and ending up left in pounds and shelters in significant numbers in my (hands on) experience, and the people doing the wrong thing will just continue to do the wrong things.

...usually you can't advertise an AK-47 on eBay, gumtree or over a newspaper (not so sure about Fakebook so) - obviously there are some measures in place that makes shopping for this type of goods pretty difficult. Why not applying those measures to dogs?...Ebay already doesn't allow the sales of dogs (and other pets). Once you start controlling the sales in this environment, you will get the registration numbers up.

I can't see that it would make it more difficult for people that want to do the right thing - for my own dog buying experience not much would have been different, beside that I would have had to send off application papers before we bought the dog.

This strategy will only push the sale of dogs underground with sellers finding other places to sell their puppies.

The people that are doing the right thing are not the problem, the problem is the people who are currently doing the wrong thing as they will continue to do the wrong thing

...underground means also higher costs (higher risks, higher fines...)...which will benefit the recognized and registered breeders. If I intend to buy a dog, why should I embark on such a risky business where I can get heavily fined and have to pay eventually even more for a dog if I can get my dog without this stress the legal way?

Regulation does not stop drink driving which is high risk and has high fines.

Regulation does not work.

..that's debatable ...I still believe that getting reminded of the hefty fines help some people to consider a plan B. Hefty fines are nothing else than 'positive punishment', losing the licence is 'negative punishment'...a little bit keen to state on a dog forum that those methods don't work.

Actually what changes behaviour is changing attitudes through education. It's the endless campaigns that cost plenty of money.

This

^^

education includes discussions, teaching, training ... and conditioning is part of training...

Real change comes about from targeted education based on sound, psychological principles. Which is why the first thing 99% of the population do when they get in a car is to put their seat belt on.

[Steve]

Whilst I think education is a massive part of it all there is something else that I think we have to accept will always be there . Over the years Ive done the best I could to select great homes and the few times in that period that dogs I bred have been let down by their new owners without exception those owners have been educated .They knew as much about the breed and what they were getting into and the issues of dogs in pounds etc AS POSSIBLE.

Last year I sold a Maremma pup to someone who ticked all the boxes - a school teacher who owned a hobby farm and wanted the dog to guard her babydoll sheep . She had already owned a rescue Cav which had recently died of old age and had another cross bred ex rescue house dog. I worked hard with her and thought I had gotten to know her reasonably well , and that hse knew about the breed and management issues better than most. I started the pup with sheep and when I put the pup in her arms the look on her face was one of falling in love with the pup. The pup looked into her eyes clearly said "I love you" and home they went. I get constant photos and updates about how well the pup was doing and there wasn't single sign that thing's'would go belly up. My notes and contracts all say if there is a problem come back to me so I can help rehome etc. The buyer is very aware of this and agree to do so. I work hard at developing relationships so they feel comfortable coming to me if something goes wrong.

So when the pup is 6 months old I got notice that this dog had been shoved into an overnight cage at the pound. the owner had also left the paperwork which I provided with the pup in the mail box .she also left her ex rescue dog in the cage as well.

Long story short I drive 1400 kilometres to pick the dog pay costs and bring it home. The paperwork not only included all of the pedigrees, vet certificates, microchip papers etc but it also still contained the worm meds I had provided with the pup. The owner hadn't even wormed her after taking her home. Never got her follow up vaccinations. When I rang and asked her why she did this ,what was the problem. Her answer was - she just didn't want to talk about it ,the sheep were going because they turned out to be too much work for her ,the dog had done nothing wrong and was working well but no work would be there for it after next week and she didn't think i would find out about it! She was worried that I would feel she had let me down. LET ME DOWN! She took that pup from her sheep, left her in a germ infested cage in the middle of the night, didn't worm her, didn't vaccinate her,didnt call me so I could help find her a new home,told me it had broken her heart to do it - good grief - .what about letting the pup down?

Anyway my point is that no matter what there will always be the human element, things change for people which means they cant keep their dogs, and some people are just bastards and no amount of education is ever going to eliminate dogs being homeless whether they are desexed or not.

[asal]

Whilst I think education is a massive part of it all there is something else that I think we have to accept will always be there . Over the years Ive done the best I could to select great homes and the few times in that period that dogs I bred have been let down by their new owners without exception those owners have been educated .They knew as much about the breed and what they were getting into and the issues of dogs in pounds etc AS POSSIBLE.

Last year I sold a Maremma pup to someone who ticked all the boxes - a school teacher who owned a hobby farm and wanted the dog to guard her babydoll sheep . She had already owned a rescue Cav which had recently died of old age and had another cross bred ex rescue house dog. I worked hard with her and thought I had gotten to know her reasonably well , and that hse knew about the breed and management issues better than most. I started the pup with sheep and when I put the pup in her arms the look on her face was one of falling in love with the pup. The pup looked into her eyes clearly said "I love you" and home they went. I get constant photos and updates about how well the pup was doing and there wasn't single sign that thing's'would go belly up. My notes and contracts all say if there is a problem come back to me so I can help rehome etc. The buyer is very aware of this and agree to do so. I work hard at developing relationships so they feel comfortable coming to me if something goes wrong.

So when the pup is 6 months old I got notice that this dog had been shoved into an overnight cage at the pound. the owner had also left the paperwork which I provided with the pup in the mail box .she also left her ex rescue dog in the cage as well.

Long story short I drive 1400 kilometres to pick the dog pay costs and bring it home. The paperwork not only included all of the pedigrees, vet certificates, microchip papers etc but it also still contained the worm meds I had provided with the pup. The owner hadn't even wormed her after taking her home. Never got her follow up vaccinations. When I rang and asked her why she did this ,what was the problem. Her answer was - she just didn't want to talk about it ,the sheep were going because they turned out to be too much work for her ,the dog had done nothing wrong and was working well but no work would be there for it after next week and she didn't think i would find out about it! She was worried that I would feel she had let me down. LET ME DOWN! She took that pup from her sheep, left her in a germ infested cage in the middle of the night, didn't worm her, didn't vaccinate her,didnt call me so I could help find her a new home,told me it had broken her heart to do it - good grief - .what about letting the pup down?

Anyway my point is that no matter what there will always be the human element, things change for people which means they cant keep their dogs, and some people are just bastards and no amount of education is ever going to eliminate dogs being homeless whether they are desexed or not.

exactly. as for the comparison to putting a seat belt on by the spotted devil? for starters no one has to feed,vaccinate or flea a seat belt yet many dont do them up

[The Spotted Devil]

Not sure of your point asal? I was just pointing out how much money the government has spent changing ONE single behaviour. And how complicated this is.

[asal]

Not sure of your point asal? I was just pointing out how much money the government has spent changing ONE single behaviour. And how complicated this is.

misunderstood you, sorry.

no matter how much of a nanny state they want to make Australia, they fail to understand or don't want too.

if not even children are safe from being dumped, abused or killed.

its pretty stupid to think they can do better re dog and cat welfare.

[The Spotted Devil]

Not sure of your point asal? I was just pointing out how much money the government has spent changing ONE single behaviour. And how complicated this is.

misunderstood you, sorry.

no matter how much of a nanny state they want to make Australia, they fail to understand or don't want too.

if not even children are safe from being dumped, abused or killed.

its pretty stupid to think they can do better re dog and cat welfare.

No dramas. With regard to your last statement - we can't fix everything nor will we change the nutters at the low end or the high achievers aka DOL dog owners. But we can improve the welfare of the average dog and cat through appropriate, targeted education. I do believe it's a much better approach than constant changes to legislation.

[Dogdragon]

Education won’t change the puppy factory attitudes, education won’t change the view that a certain breed of dog is good for the fighting ring, education won’t change the fact that people will still buy a dog because their circumstances are good for a puppy at the moment and then 6 months down the track the landlord says you have to move because that dog is making a mess of my property, etc etc etc. The list is endless and no matter how many education programs you plow money into, not much changes…….yep, you will never change the nutters, not sure what you mean by the high achievers…..

You are never going to re wire humanities impulsiveness, the best you can do is manage it to minimize the impact of the victim. Humans buy with their hearts. They impulse buy, and dump with their heads, they rationalize why they should remove that dog from their lives. That’s a fact. Education hasn’t changes drink driving, it hasn’t changes drug use, it hasn’t changed smoking, it hasn’t change racism! Why do you think an education program (with I might add, limited funding) would change the amount of dogs in shelters?

Why is it that we don’t dump teenage humans? We deal with the issues and push through the problems but we dump teenage dogs. Its all to do with the rights of the entity and that is where the real issue lies. Of all the species’ we should afford rights to, it should be those who share our homes, our lives, our evolution!

It wasn’t that long ago that we (humans) took other humans as slaves. We justified this by rationalizing that the colour of your skin dictated the rights you held. We do the very same thing with with women and the very same thing with the one entity that contributed to what we have became today, the dog! Legislation, TSD is the only way.

[sandgrubber]

Returning to the OP . . . I've come to hate the term 'ethical'. Too often it means 'doing things the way I think they should be done'. Given how widely attitudes vary about things like desexing, inbreeding (line breeding), selection for traits that will get a dog titled, etc., one person's ethical is often another person's BYB, or another person's torture breeder.

[BlaznHotAussies]

Returning to the OP . . . I've come to hate the term 'ethical'. Too often it means 'doing things the way I think they should be done'. Given how widely attitudes vary about things like desexing, inbreeding (line breeding), selection for traits that will get a dog titled, etc., one person's ethical is often another person's BYB, or another person's torture breeder.

That's a fair point.

An example recently for me personally was an ad on Dogzonline and said "As an ethical responsible breeder all puppies leave here desexed"... Personally I wouldn't hold that as the most ethical due to those hormones being good for growth, but unfortunately the world we live in means that everyone else has to pick up after those who can't be responsible for their dogs & get them desexed/manage them entire.

Edited May 16, 2016 by Scootaloo

[Willem]

Returning to the OP . . . I've come to hate the term 'ethical'. Too often it means 'doing things the way I think they should be done'. Given how widely attitudes vary about things like desexing, inbreeding (line breeding), selection for traits that will get a dog titled, etc., one person's ethical is often another person's BYB, or another person's torture breeder.

That's the point!...I often get suspicious when those terms seem to be defined by people that 'go with the flow'. It is just so convenient to adopt the ideas and attitudes of the majority - feels better, feels stronger, so must be right.

In the past when people were killed for claiming the earth is not a disc, the mob - intentionally misled by authorities - could be excused as they didn't have access to knowledge, so they relied heavily on the people and organisations in charge. Think about that for most of the time even the Bible was only available in Latin and not readable for the normal mortal. The access to the WWW changed this and allows many people a much less biased attitude, but it also facilitates a much more subtly and more sneaky manipulation, and of course there is still the power of numbers (followers) that decide what is right and wrong.

[asal]

Returning to the OP . . . I've come to hate the term 'ethical'. Too often it means 'doing things the way I think they should be done'. Given how widely attitudes vary about things like desexing, inbreeding (line breeding), selection for traits that will get a dog titled, etc., one person's ethical is often another person's BYB, or another person's torture breeder.

That's a fair point.

An example recently for me personally was an ad on Dogzonline and said "As an ethical responsible breeder all puppies leave here desexed"... Personally I wouldn't hold that as the most ethical due to those hormones being good for growth, but unfortunately the world we live in means that everyone else has to pick up after those who can't be responsible for their dogs & get them desexed/manage them entire.

So true, was reading adds recently for a friend who wants a french bulldog, some adds had "ethical" repeated add nausium, yet the vast majority were advertising either blue or chocolate or carriers at additional price some even asking $15,000 for these 'rare' colours. cough, banned according to the breed standard.

to me 'ethical' is a word everyone seems to need to feel they have tightly wrapped around themselves as you would a cloak of respectability.

as a rather famous professor used to say, "WHY! is it so?"

Because today, thanks to the vilification of dog breeders, ANYONE who has bred a litter of puppies can discover they will be viewed by a significant proportion of the population as having put their fur child in the family way and now. Horror of horrors, selling their fur grandchildren, for MONEY? How could you DO such a thing?

in the olden days, a person became a registered breeder to continue the generations of the breeder before them, to pass on suitable pups to the next generation of breeders to secure the future of their breed.

not today. try and find a breeder who doesn't proudly flaunt one of the proofs of their "ethical" standing by clearly advising "all puppies will come with limit registration" as I read these my mind substitutes their coveted "ethical breeder" status for "dead end breeder".

As for the increasing use of 'fur kids' don't like it (much as we love our dogs, they are DOGS, they are not children, they think like dogs they act like dogs and when you forget that tragedies happen as seen in off leash parks and the home) eg a FB forum member wailed, her last rescue puppy, now 18 months old had just torn apart her beloved 5 year old it was growing up with. WHY? did this happen.

another very long time friend woke up one morning and shocked to discover her sons 2 yr old kelpie dead on one side of the room and her geriatric Labrador asleep beside her bed. She never woke up during what was obviously a deadly disagreement.

Edited May 17, 2016 by asal

[Simply Grand]

Education won’t change the puppy factory attitudes, education won’t change the view that a certain breed of dog is good for the fighting ring, education won’t change the fact that people will still buy a dog because their circumstances are good for a puppy at the moment and then 6 months down the track the landlord says you have to move because that dog is making a mess of my property, etc etc etc. The

list is endless and no matter how many education programs you plow money into, not much changes…….yep, you will never change the nutters, not sure what you mean by the high achievers…..

You are never going to re wire humanities impulsiveness, the best you can do is manage it to minimize the impact of the victim. Humans buy with their hearts. They impulse buy, and dump with their heads, they rationalize why they should remove that dog from their lives. That’s a fact. Education hasn’t changes drink driving, it hasn’t changes drug use, it hasn’t changed smoking, it hasn’t change racism! Why do you think an education program (with I might add, limited funding) would change the amount of dogs in shelters?

Why is it that we don’t dump teenage humans? We deal with the issues and push through the problems but we dump teenage dogs. Its all to do with the rights of the entity and that is where the real issue lies. Of all the species’ we should afford rights to, it should be those who share our homes, our lives, our evolution!

It wasn’t that long ago that we (humans) took other humans as slaves. We justified this by rationalizing that the colour of your skin dictated the rights you held. We do the very same thing with with women and the very same thing with the one entity that contributed to what we have became today, the dog! Legislation, TSD is the only way.

But we already have legislation around lots of things (microchipping, breeders permits, registration, age of sale) and it isn't fixing the issues because it isn't enforced. More unenforced legislation won't change anything either.

Education and changing the attitudes and will of the majority works two fold - 1. in changing people's behaviours; and 2. in changing political will and pressure on governments to spend resources on enforcing the legislation we already have.

Those two things are what changed things with regard to slavery and the rights of women, and are why rates of things like drink driving and smoking rates, and racism, actually have reduced, not just a dictatorial government putting in new legislation without the will of the majority behind it.

Edited May 17, 2016 by Simply Grand

[moosmum]

Education won’t change the puppy factory attitudes, education won’t change the view that a certain breed of dog is good for the fighting ring, education won’t change the fact that people will still buy a dog because their circumstances are good for a puppy at the moment and then 6 months down the track the landlord says you have to move because that dog is making a mess of my property, etc etc etc. The

list is endless and no matter how many education programs you plow money into, not much changes…….yep, you will never change the nutters, not sure what you mean by the high achievers…..

You are never going to re wire humanities impulsiveness, the best you can do is manage it to minimize the impact of the victim. Humans buy with their hearts. They impulse buy, and dump with their heads, they rationalize why they should remove that dog from their lives. That’s a fact. Education hasn’t changes drink driving, it hasn’t changes drug use, it hasn’t changed smoking, it hasn’t change racism! Why do you think an education program (with I might add, limited funding) would change the amount of dogs in shelters?

Why is it that we don’t dump teenage humans? We deal with the issues and push through the problems but we dump teenage dogs. Its all to do with the rights of the entity and that is where the real issue lies. Of all the species’ we should afford rights to, it should be those who share our homes, our lives, our evolution!

It wasn’t that long ago that we (humans) took other humans as slaves. We justified this by rationalizing that the colour of your skin dictated the rights you held. We do the very same thing with with women and the very same thing with the one entity that contributed to what we have became today, the dog! Legislation, TSD is the only way.

But we already have legislation around lots of things (microchipping, breeders permits, registration, age of sale) and it isn't fixing the issues because it isn't enforced. More unenforced legislation won't change anything either.

Education and changing the attitudes and will of the majority works two fold - 1. in changing people's behaviours; and 2. in changing political will and pressure on governments to spend resources on enforcing the legislation we already have.

Those two things are what changed things with regard to slavery and the rights of women, and are why rates of things like drink driving and smoking rates, and racism, actually have reduced, not just a dictatorial government putting in new legislation without the will of the majority behind it.

Agree.

There have been improvements and I think will that will continue. Peoples expectations change and further legislation is, I think, Short sighted when what we have now IS changing expectations ( clear from OP )

[sandgrubber]

But what's going to make all the people that don't abide by the current rules - all those who don't register their dogs, who breed without breeder permits, who sell or give away puppies without microchipping and below the minimum age, and those who buy from them without carrying about any of that and do the same things - follow more stringent rules?

And if councils/local governments aren't effectively enforcing the current rules so people get away with doing the above without any consequences, how or why are they going to enforce more stringent rules?

Seems to me it would be making it more difficult for the people who do the right thing, who are not the ones whose pets are causing problems and ending up left in pounds and shelters in significant numbers in my (hands on) experience, and the people doing the wrong thing will just continue to do the wrong things.

...usually you can't advertise an AK-47 on eBay, gumtree or over a newspaper (not so sure about Fakebook so) - obviously there are some measures in place that makes shopping for this type of goods pretty difficult. Why not applying those measures to dogs?...Ebay already doesn't allow the sales of dogs (and other pets). Once you start controlling the sales in this environment, you will get the registration numbers up.

I can't see that it would make it more difficult for people that want to do the right thing - for my own dog buying experience not much would have been different, beside that I would have had to send off application papers before we bought the dog.

Craigslist, the GumTree equivalent in the US (it has unsuccessful progeny in Oz) bans pet listings apart from 'small rehoming fee'. It's a farce. Enforcement is haphazard, and mostly governed by users checking a box saying the ad is 'prohibited'. . Loads of pups are listed from BYB's (mostly pit bulls) for <$200. No allowance for breeders who are doing it right. Meanwhile, abundant listings for exotics (sugar gliders, hedgehogs, parrots of many sorts, reptiles of many sorts) and miniature pigs.

[Simply Grand]

And "enforcement" on all of those social networking/advertising sites means the admins removing the ads, not someone acting on the actual breeding and selling of the dogs.

[asal]

Education won’t change the puppy factory attitudes, education won’t change the view that a certain breed of dog is good for the fighting ring, education won’t change the fact that people will still buy a dog because their circumstances are good for a puppy at the moment and then 6 months down the track the landlord says you have to move because that dog is making a mess of my property, etc etc etc. The

list is endless and no matter how many education programs you plow money into, not much changes…….yep, you will never change the nutters, not sure what you mean by the high achievers…..

You are never going to re wire humanities impulsiveness, the best you can do is manage it to minimize the impact of the victim. Humans buy with their hearts. They impulse buy, and dump with their heads, they rationalize why they should remove that dog from their lives. That’s a fact. Education hasn’t changes drink driving, it hasn’t changes drug use, it hasn’t changed smoking, it hasn’t change racism! Why do you think an education program (with I might add, limited funding) would change the amount of dogs in shelters?

Why is it that we don’t dump teenage humans? We deal with the issues and push through the problems but we dump teenage dogs. Its all to do with the rights of the entity and that is where the real issue lies. Of all the species’ we should afford rights to, it should be those who share our homes, our lives, our evolution!

It wasn’t that long ago that we (humans) took other humans as slaves. We justified this by rationalizing that the colour of your skin dictated the rights you held. We do the very same thing with with women and the very same thing with the one entity that contributed to what we have became today, the dog! Legislation, TSD is the only way.

But we already have legislation around lots of things (microchipping, breeders permits, registration, age of sale) and it isn't fixing the issues because it isn't enforced. More unenforced legislation won't change anything either.

Education and changing the attitudes and will of the majority works two fold - 1. in changing people's behaviours; and 2. in changing political will and pressure on governments to spend resources on enforcing the legislation we already have.

Those two things are what changed things with regard to slavery and the rights of women, and are why rates of things like drink driving and smoking rates, and racism, actually have reduced, not just a dictatorial government putting in new legislation without the will of the majority behind it.

Your mistaken, it is in force. the problem is the target is the only tracable people,registered breeders.

Its been very successful less and less bred every year.

get rid of the real supply and don't think you can find a puppy from a registered breeder. there aren't enough bred Australia wide to supply even one state.

[Simply Grand]

Education won’t change the puppy factory attitudes, education won’t change the view that a certain breed of dog is good for the fighting ring, education won’t change the fact that people will still buy a dog because their circumstances are good for a puppy at the moment and then 6 months down the track the landlord says you have to move because that dog is making a mess of my property, etc etc etc. The

list is endless and no matter how many education programs you plow money into, not much changes…….yep, you will never change the nutters, not sure what you mean by the high achievers…..

You are never going to re wire humanities impulsiveness, the best you can do is manage it to minimize the impact of the victim. Humans buy with their hearts. They impulse buy, and dump with their heads, they rationalize why they should remove that dog from their lives. That’s a fact. Education hasn’t changes drink driving, it hasn’t changes drug use, it hasn’t changed smoking, it hasn’t change racism! Why do you think an education program (with I might add, limited funding) would change the amount of dogs in shelters?

Why is it that we don’t dump teenage humans? We deal with the issues and push through the problems but we dump teenage dogs. Its all to do with the rights of the entity and that is where the real issue lies. Of all the species’ we should afford rights to, it should be those who share our homes, our lives, our evolution!

It wasn’t that long ago that we (humans) took other humans as slaves. We justified this by rationalizing that the colour of your skin dictated the rights you held. We do the very same thing with with women and the very same thing with the one entity that contributed to what we have became today, the dog! Legislation, TSD is the only way.

But we already have legislation around lots of things (microchipping, breeders permits, registration, age of sale) and it isn't fixing the issues because it isn't enforced. More unenforced legislation won't change anything either.

Education and changing the attitudes and will of the majority works two fold - 1. in changing people's behaviours; and 2. in changing political will and pressure on governments to spend resources on enforcing the legislation we already have.

Those two things are what changed things with regard to slavery and the rights of women, and are why rates of things like drink driving and smoking rates, and racism, actually have reduced, not just a dictatorial government putting in new legislation without the will of the majority behind it.

Your mistaken, it is in force. the problem is the target is the only tracable people,registered breeders.

Its been very successful less and less bred every year.

get rid of the real supply and don't think you can find a puppy from a registered breeder. there aren't enough bred Australia wide to supply even one state.

Sorry, what is in force where, and how? And with breeders registered with who?

I'm not clear on what you are saying.

[Willem]

I think asal refers to the low percentage (maybe 15%) registered breeders contribute to the overall dog population - they feel the whole heat of the current legislations despite that their impact on the pound problem is minimal (due to the numbers and due to their way doing their business, interaction with potential buyers etc.). At the moment it seems that the legislation has only consequences for the registered breeders, hence the big question is how to make these legislations work for all the other breeders that provide the other 85%?