For All The Unethical (But Responsible) Dog Owners ...

[Willem]

But what's going to make all the people that don't abide by the current rules - all those who don't register their dogs, who breed without breeder permits, who sell or give away puppies without microchipping and below the minimum age, and those who buy from them without carrying about any of that and do the same things - follow more stringent rules?

And if councils/local governments aren't effectively enforcing the current rules so people get away with doing the above without any consequences, how or why are they going to enforce more stringent rules?

Seems to me it would be making it more difficult for the people who do the right thing, who are not the ones whose pets are causing problems and ending up left in pounds and shelters in significant numbers in my (hands on) experience, and the people doing the wrong thing will just continue to do the wrong things.

...usually you can't advertise an AK-47 on eBay, gumtree or over a newspaper (not so sure about Fakebook so) - obviously there are some measures in place that makes shopping for this type of goods pretty difficult. Why not applying those measures to dogs?...Ebay already doesn't allow the sales of dogs (and other pets). Once you start controlling the sales in this environment, you will get the registration numbers up.

I can't see that it would make it more difficult for people that want to do the right thing - for my own dog buying experience not much would have been different, beside that I would have had to send off application papers before we bought the dog.

This strategy will only push the sale of dogs underground with sellers finding other places to sell their puppies.

The people that are doing the right thing are not the problem, the problem is the people who are currently doing the wrong thing as they will continue to do the wrong thing

...underground means also higher costs (higher risks, higher fines...)...which will benefit the recognized and registered breeders. If I intend to buy a dog, why should I embark on such a risky business where I can get heavily fined and have to pay eventually even more for a dog if I can get my dog without this stress the legal way?

Regulation does not stop drink driving which is high risk and has high fines.

Regulation does not work.

..that's debatable ...I still believe that getting reminded of the hefty fines help some people to consider a plan B. Hefty fines are nothing else than 'positive punishment', losing the licence is 'negative punishment'...a little bit keen to state on a dog forum that those methods don't work.

[Steve]

But what's going to make all the people that don't abide by the current rules - all those who don't register their dogs, who breed without breeder permits, who sell or give away puppies without microchipping and below the minimum age, and those who buy from them without carrying about any of that and do the same things - follow more stringent rules?

And if councils/local governments aren't effectively enforcing the current rules so people get away with doing the above without any consequences, how or why are they going to enforce more stringent rules?

Seems to me it would be making it more difficult for the people who do the right thing, who are not the ones whose pets are causing problems and ending up left in pounds and shelters in significant numbers in my (hands on) experience, and the people doing the wrong thing will just continue to do the wrong things.

...usually you can't advertise an AK-47 on eBay, gumtree or over a newspaper (not so sure about Fakebook so) - obviously there are some measures in place that makes shopping for this type of goods pretty difficult. Why not applying those measures to dogs?...Ebay already doesn't allow the sales of dogs (and other pets). Once you start controlling the sales in this environment, you will get the registration numbers up.

I can't see that it would make it more difficult for people that want to do the right thing - for my own dog buying experience not much would have been different, beside that I would have had to send off application papers before we bought the dog.

This strategy will only push the sale of dogs underground with sellers finding other places to sell their puppies.

The people that are doing the right thing are not the problem, the problem is the people who are currently doing the wrong thing as they will continue to do the wrong thing

...underground means also higher costs (higher risks, higher fines...)...which will benefit the recognized and registered breeders. If I intend to buy a dog, why should I embark on such a risky business where I can get heavily fined and have to pay eventually even more for a dog if I can get my dog without this stress the legal way?

Eta: ...btw, all these arguments against an 'upfront registration' mentioned so far are also valid wrt the de-sexing strategy

Why? for the money - underground means lower costs unless you get caught and chances of getting caught are limited - even if you are its a smacked wrist breach of some code, pay the fine go again unless its a cruelty issue.

People buy puppies from pet shops and puppy farmers because its easier to do it than waiting for a registered dog .Grown ups often think they want a puppy and they dont like the idea of someone telling them they work too much,they need better fencing, they are too old etc , they often don't want a breeder giving them the third degree and making them wait ,making them sign contracts and taking up their time. Puppies bred from underground breeders are not contraband and to be honest with regard to who pays fees and complies with XYZ anyone would be hard pressed to spot the good guys from the bad.

Any suggestion of more fees, regs or rules, or laws is way out of the question because they simply become scoff laws. You are missing a very large part of the equation.

Why would you complain that you have to pay fees for not desexing and yet advocate for others to pay just in case fees anyway?

Edited May 14, 2016 by Steve

[Willem]

underground means only lower costs if the laws are not enforced. Try to buy a weapon underground - will it be cheaper than doing it the legal way (if there is a legal way and you entitled to buy one)?...I doubt it.

wrt fees: no one likes to pay more, however, I'm happy to contribute to a system that

a) allows me to make my own decision whether I want an entire or de-sexed dog

b) relieves the pounds from too many dumped dogs

c) leads to overall less stress for dogs in the end

...regarding the current system I just pay higher fees - but I don't believe that it will have any benefit wrt item b) and c). I just don't believe that we can get an improved system that works in the end for nothing.

[Steve]

But what's going to make all the people that don't abide by the current rules - all those who don't register their dogs, who breed without breeder permits, who sell or give away puppies without microchipping and below the minimum age, and those who buy from them without carrying about any of that and do the same things - follow more stringent rules?

And if councils/local governments aren't effectively enforcing the current rules so people get away with doing the above without any consequences, how or why are they going to enforce more stringent rules?

Seems to me it would be making it more difficult for the people who do the right thing, who are not the ones whose pets are causing problems and ending up left in pounds and shelters in significant numbers in my (hands on) experience, and the people doing the wrong thing will just continue to do the wrong things.

...usually you can't advertise an AK-47 on eBay, gumtree or over a newspaper (not so sure about Fakebook so) - obviously there are some measures in place that makes shopping for this type of goods pretty difficult. Why not applying those measures to dogs?...Ebay already doesn't allow the sales of dogs (and other pets). Once you start controlling the sales in this environment, you will get the registration numbers up.

I can't see that it would make it more difficult for people that want to do the right thing - for my own dog buying experience not much would have been different, beside that I would have had to send off application papers before we bought the dog.

This strategy will only push the sale of dogs underground with sellers finding other places to sell their puppies.

The people that are doing the right thing are not the problem, the problem is the people who are currently doing the wrong thing as they will continue to do the wrong thing

...underground means also higher costs (higher risks, higher fines...)...which will benefit the recognized and registered breeders. If I intend to buy a dog, why should I embark on such a risky business where I can get heavily fined and have to pay eventually even more for a dog if I can get my dog without this stress the legal way?

Regulation does not stop drink driving which is high risk and has high fines.

Regulation does not work.

..that's debatable ...I still believe that getting reminded of the hefty fines help some people to consider a plan B. Hefty fines are nothing else than 'positive punishment', losing the licence is 'negative punishment'...a little bit keen to state on a dog forum that those methods don't work.

O.K. Lets have a little look at the dog world

If microchipping has been mandatory since the 90's then why dont many breeders microchip? How many have ever been fined . In 20 years I've heard of one. Since day one I have never allowed a pup to leave my property which is not chipped not because Im worried about a fine because if I copped a couple now I would have saved thousands anyway . In July an updated system is being introduced for microchipping in NSW which links more data than is currently linked.

This is from an email I received from the dept of local government ayregistration online.

Quote.

A focus will be placed on collecting breeder information by assigning breeder ID numbers (or recognised breeder association number if applicable), which will also allow for quick lodging of a pet to a breeder when micro-chipped. The breeder can than pay a discounted registration fee, and/o r transfer the pet to the new owner (online). end quote

Now I promise you already many breeders are working out how they can get around this because they don't want councils to know how many dogs they have how often they breed them and how many litters they have . Up till now this wasn't part of the deal. Also AWL and RSPCA are two of the agencies which have access to this as well as various pounds and whistle blowers for animal rights and statements have already been made that they will spot for litter numbers and be able to visit to check on them. Breeders good and bad dont like this one little bit. In other words those that haven't chipped up till now will not chip in future and some of those who have will decide not to. Breeder IDs are issued as needed to get the chips in so I had a conversation recently with a breeder who is preparing to have her staff get breeder IDs so no one can track her details. ANKC breeders have to have chip numbers to register their puppies and Ive spoken to two registered breEders who are working out how they wont get spotted by the RSPCA.

fines so what ? How are you going to catch them?

Edited May 14, 2016 by Steve

[Steve]

underground means only lower costs if the laws are not enforced. Try to buy a weapon underground - will it be cheaper than doing it the legal way (if there is a legal way and you entitled to buy one)?...I doubt it.

wrt fees: no one likes to pay more, however, I'm happy to contribute to a system that

a) allows me to make my own decision whether I want an entire or de-sexed dog

b) relieves the pounds from too many dumped dogs

c) leads to overall less stress for dogs in the end

...regarding the current system I just pay higher fees - but I don't believe that it will have any benefit wrt item b) and c). I just don't believe that we can get an improved system that works in the end for nothing.

Guns and cars are not puppies and right now there are thousands of puppies available for sale on line and in pet shops which come from people who do everything they can to breed more puppies and sell them for as much as they can get.

[Steve]

Another REGISTERED breeder takes one pup from each sex to get vaccinated at 6 weeks - their vet doesn't attach a chip number to the certificate so he copies the certificate and hands them out to all of the new puppy owners .So far telling his puppy buyers to repeat vaccination at 10 weeks has worked and none have contracted parvo . risk fines? Some people are just capable of doing anything they think they wont get caught at.

[Willem]

[O.K. Lets have a little look at the dog world

If microchipping has been mandatory since the 90's then why dont many breeders microchip? How many have ever been fined . In 20 years I've heard of one. Since day one I have never allowed a pup to leave my property which is not chipped not because Im worried about a fine because if I copped a couple now I would have saved thousands anyway . In July an updated system is being introduced for microchipping in NSW which links more data than is currently linked.

This is from an email I received from the dept of local government ayregistration online.

Quote.

A focus will be placed on collecting breeder information byassigning breeder ID numbers (or recognised breeder association number ifapplicable), which will also allow for quick lodging of a pet to a breeder whenmicro-chipped. The breeder can than pay a discounted registration fee, and/ortransfer the pet to the new owner (online). end quote

Now I promise you already many breeders are working out how they can get around this because they don't want councils to know how many dogs they have how often they breed them and how many litters they have . Up till now this wasn't part of the deal. Also AWL and RSPCA are two of the agencies which have access to this as well as various pounds and whistle blowers for animal rights and statements have already been made that they will spot for litter numbers and be able to visit to check on them. Breeders good and bad dont like this one little bit. In other words those that haven't chipped up till now will not chip in future and some of those who have will decide not to. Breeder IDs are issued as needed to get the chips in so I had a conversation recently with a breeder who is preparing to have her staff get breeder IDs so no one can track her details. ANKC breeders have to have chip numbers to register their puppies and Ive spoken to two registered breEders who are working out how they wont get spotted by the RSPCA.

fines so what ? How are you going to catch them?

...I don't know :) ...an I never said it would be easy. Maybe we could look at other countries that have better records and find out how they do it?...it would definitely need some insider experience to cover up all the loop holes. If we accept the status quo as it is because changes are difficult to make we will have indeed dog owners in the future shouting 'I don't want de-sex my dog' and other 'but the pounds are full'...currently the pounds are full, no matter whether my dog is de-sexed or not.

[Steve]

Dogs in pounds is simply a fact of life because its a human issue not a dog issue .

Yes some dogs which are not desexed will have unwanted litters but everywhere else that has introduced mandatory desexing has shown it make no difference to numbers dumped.

The reason the incentive to desex is there is because it helps them to be seen to be doing something because people who yell a lot push for this to be seen as the cause and the solution to high numbers in pounds

no one is interested in your dog, your dogs health or welfare all they care about is management and votes.

I think its all tied up in identification and without that we will never have accurate stats and we will never really know what realistic solutions may be ,nor will those responsible ever be held accountable.

If there was an incentive for people to ensure that when they buy their puppies it comes with a chip it might help to increase the public awareness and help to stop some of those who don't chip etc

It may not do anything but it has to be worth a go after seeing that simply introducing laws hasn't had the desired outcome. The new system after July 2 will fail as well unless you educate the buyer and perhaps offering an incentive reduction on your rego fees will help .

Im not paying any more what if fees because others dont do the right thing and Im not going for more fines or laws until I see that they are able to be enforced.

[Willem]

underground means only lower costs if the laws are not enforced. Try to buy a weapon underground - will it be cheaper than doing it the legal way (if there is a legal way and you entitled to buy one)?...I doubt it.

wrt fees: no one likes to pay more, however, I'm happy to contribute to a system that

a) allows me to make my own decision whether I want an entire or de-sexed dog

b) relieves the pounds from too many dumped dogs

c) leads to overall less stress for dogs in the end

...regarding the current system I just pay higher fees - but I don't believe that it will have any benefit wrt item b) and c). I just don't believe that we can get an improved system that works in the end for nothing.

Guns and cars are not puppies and right now there are thousands of puppies available for sale on line and in pet shops which come from people who do everything they can to breed more puppies and sell them for as much as they can get.

you know this because they are advertised?...that would allow a task-force to track them down...and fine the people / parties involved. And yes, guns and cars and puppies are different things - but they are all 'goods' as part of a buying contract, and the principles to control the market are pretty much the same for any good...whether to adopt the required measures or not depends on the priority the problem has - and the evaluation of 'priority' seems to be one of the challenging questions to be answered too.

[Steve]

underground means only lower costs if the laws are not enforced. Try to buy a weapon underground - will it be cheaper than doing it the legal way (if there is a legal way and you entitled to buy one)?...I doubt it.

wrt fees: no one likes to pay more, however, I'm happy to contribute to a system that

a) allows me to make my own decision whether I want an entire or de-sexed dog

b) relieves the pounds from too many dumped dogs

c) leads to overall less stress for dogs in the end

...regarding the current system I just pay higher fees - but I don't believe that it will have any benefit wrt item b) and c). I just don't believe that we can get an improved system that works in the end for nothing.

Guns and cars are not puppies and right now there are thousands of puppies available for sale on line and in pet shops which come from people who do everything they can to breed more puppies and sell them for as much as they can get.

you know this because they are advertised?...that would allow a task-force to track them down...and fine the people / parties involved. And yes, guns and cars and puppies are different things - but they are all 'goods' as part of a buying contract, and the principles to control the market are pretty much the same for any good...whether to adopt the required measures or not depends on the priority the problem has - and the evaluation of 'priority' seems to be one of the challenging questions to be answered too.

Purchasing puppies is not purchasing contraband .A task force to track them down ? They cant even enforce breeders who advertise puppies in their own local papers and dont comply with codes - point it out to councils and the answer is they cant enforce it because they dont have the man power. the idea that they would even consider a task force is just a bit crazy.

They could just go door to door , check chips and regos, check that the right fence is there to suit the dog etc but they cant even do that let alone a task force to track breeders who advertise who may not be following codes and laws especially when they are different in every state.

Sorry Willem its a dumb idea in my opinion.

[Steve]

A task force?

Over the past few weeks I have had to lodge complaints with gumtree and the trading post due to people who are not MDBA breeders citing supposed MDBA breeder numbers in their ad .

Ive picked these up because those using them have been so outrageously obviously breeding dogs our members dont breed so Im sure there are more that we havent seen and if we are having this problem I have absolutely no doubt what ever that there are a hell of a lot more using fake DogsNSW and Vicdog numbers.

How would a task force have a hope of determining the real from the fake? How would the task force be able to track whether a microchip number in an ad is real or fake or just a typo?

[Willem]

ok,...at least I tried :), and with all the disclosed studies at least I know that I'm not doing anything wrong with paying a little bit extra and having an entire dog. At least I got what I want - it is a pity for the pounds so.

The book I ordered from Ted Kerasote (Pukka's Promise: The Quest for Longer-Lived Dogs Paperback February 4, 2014) should come soon and might spark some new ideas - the broadcast was at least very interesting.

Eta: your are too fast for me ...this post referred to you post #196...

Edited May 14, 2016 by Willem

[Steve]

ok,...at least I tried :), and with all the disclosed studies at least I know that I'm not doing anything wrong with paying a little bit extra and having an entire dog. At least I got what I want - it is a pity for the pounds so.

The book I ordered from Ted Kerasote (Pukka's Promise: The Quest for Longer-Lived Dogs Paperback – February 4, 2014) should come soon and might spark some new ideas - the broadcast was at least very interesting.

Eta: your are too fast for me ...this post referred to you post #196...

Its always good to question things,toss things around, listen to those who agree and disagree and learn - and it is up to us to become as educated as we can and make the best decisions for our dogs even if that seems to go against public opinion and you are not the bad guy if you choose not to desex.

As long as we focus on what is best for our dogs over and above all else even when we are proven wrong or make mistakes we are on the right track.

There is much more that goes on in the world that you only get a glimpse of here.

Edited May 14, 2016 by Steve

[Willem]

A task force?

Over the past few weeks I have had to lodge complaints with gumtree and the trading post due to people who are not MDBA breeders citing supposed MDBA breeder numbers in their ad .

Ive picked these up because those using them have been so outrageously obviously breeding dogs our members dont breed so Im sure there are more that we havent seen and if we are having this problem I have absolutely no doubt what ever that there are a hell of a lot more using fake DogsNSW and Vicdog numbers.

How would a task force have a hope of determining the real from the fake? How would the task force be able to track whether a microchip number in an ad is real or fake or just a typo?

...what would be a decent approach?...if there is a bigger problem in a society (and 'big' depends on the 'priority') you would normally get a commission together that investigate the problem and comes up with a proposal how to tackle it - here on a forum we can only scratch the surface a little bit. Such a commission requires people like you and other subject matter experts and politicians with a real interest. If there is really an interest in improving the current situation, such a proposal could be on the table in approx. 6 month time.

Eta: the outcome and findings of the proposal would of course lead to the required measures...

Eta:...hm, 4.2 mill dogs ...that's makes a lot of dog owners (even if there are owners with more than one dog)...makes a lot of voters... :)

Edited May 14, 2016 by Willem

[Steve]

A task force?

Over the past few weeks I have had to lodge complaints with gumtree and the trading post due to people who are not MDBA breeders citing supposed MDBA breeder numbers in their ad .

Ive picked these up because those using them have been so outrageously obviously breeding dogs our members dont breed so Im sure there are more that we havent seen and if we are having this problem I have absolutely no doubt what ever that there are a hell of a lot more using fake DogsNSW and Vicdog numbers.

How would a task force have a hope of determining the real from the fake? How would the task force be able to track whether a microchip number in an ad is real or fake or just a typo?

...what would be a decent approach?...if there is a bigger problem in a society (and 'big' depends on the 'priority') you would normally get a commission together that investigate the problem and comes up with a proposal how to tackle it - here on a forum we can only scratch the surface a little bit. Such a commission requires people like you and other subject matter experts and politicians with a real interest. If there is really an interest in improving the current situation, such a proposal could be on the table in approx. 6 month time.

Well that is exactly what recently happened .There was a parliamentary enquiry into the welfare of breeding dogs in NSW - with stake holders interviewed and submissions from those interested in the community.

Im proud to say that we were heard and the MDBA was able to educate them a little on things they really had no idea of . We got pretty much everything we wanted and nothing we didn't - so the changes in July are a result of that.

Problem is they get the bit about we need changes in the microchipping and registration system but don't consult between when we agree we need a change in the system to when it goes in so they don't anticipate how they are leaving loopholes and the potential unintended consequences.

Edited May 14, 2016 by Steve

[Steve]

Have to say that if this thread had been up before we placed that submission part of it would have been a suggestion to introduce an incentive into the registration system for those who purchase their dog already chipped.

[Willem]

ok, that might be the dumbest idea I ever had :D :

1. if iris scanning works - change the identification procedure to iris scanning; this would allow easy control and recording using mobile phones (ok, phone needs to have this feature, e.g. Lumia 950, otherwise you just could use the code you receive from council via an E-file);
   
   
2. setup a dog-lotto;
   
   
3. the ticket (you have to pay for it of course) is the scan / code of your dog's eyes you send off to the dog-lotto organisation (
   obviously your dog needs to be registered to make this work!!!!)
   
   

...with the chance of winning AU$ 1 Mill the motivation of owners to register their dogs will be skyrocketing!!!

Eta: ...would actually also work with a microchip number - iris scanning seems just to be more advanced.

Edited May 14, 2016 by Willem

[Steve]

ok, that might be the dumbest idea I ever had :D :

1. if iris scanning works - change the identification procedure to iris scanning; this would allow easy control and recording using mobile phones (ok, phone needs to have this feature, e.g. Lumia 950, otherwise you just could use the code you receive from council via an E-file);
2. setup a dog-lotto;
3. the ticket (you have to pay for it of course) is the scan / code of your dog's eyes you send off to the dog-lotto organisation (
   obviously your dog needs to be registered to make this work!!!!)

...with the chance of winning AU$ 1 Mill the motivation of owners to register their dogs will be skyrocketing!!!

Eta: ...would actually also work with a microchip number - iris scanning seems just to be more advanced.

However, Im more open to incentives for puppy buyers rather than fines for the breeder.

[Dame Aussie]

A work mate of mine brought his dog in to work a few weeks back and she was not the happy dog she normally is wanting pats and attention'' because ''her owner said she was on heat.

Now my thought was why doesn't he get her de sexed.But said nothing to him.

I wonder if there is any research on the behavior of female dogs during a heat;i don't have time to search right now.

General temperament and dog aggression, anxiety, is largely down to Genetics , training and environment.

I can only speak for my girl but her behaviour when in season is pretty much the same as usual. She is sometimes a bit more frisky and playful with my other dog but that's the only difference I've noticed.

[The Spotted Devil]

But what's going to make all the people that don't abide by the current rules - all those who don't register their dogs, who breed without breeder permits, who sell or give away puppies without microchipping and below the minimum age, and those who buy from them without carrying about any of that and do the same things - follow more stringent rules?

And if councils/local governments aren't effectively enforcing the current rules so people get away with doing the above without any consequences, how or why are they going to enforce more stringent rules?

Seems to me it would be making it more difficult for the people who do the right thing, who are not the ones whose pets are causing problems and ending up left in pounds and shelters in significant numbers in my (hands on) experience, and the people doing the wrong thing will just continue to do the wrong things.

...usually you can't advertise an AK-47 on eBay, gumtree or over a newspaper (not so sure about Fakebook so) - obviously there are some measures in place that makes shopping for this type of goods pretty difficult. Why not applying those measures to dogs?...Ebay already doesn't allow the sales of dogs (and other pets). Once you start controlling the sales in this environment, you will get the registration numbers up.

I can't see that it would make it more difficult for people that want to do the right thing - for my own dog buying experience not much would have been different, beside that I would have had to send off application papers before we bought the dog.

This strategy will only push the sale of dogs underground with sellers finding other places to sell their puppies.

The people that are doing the right thing are not the problem, the problem is the people who are currently doing the wrong thing as they will continue to do the wrong thing

...underground means also higher costs (higher risks, higher fines...)...which will benefit the recognized and registered breeders. If I intend to buy a dog, why should I embark on such a risky business where I can get heavily fined and have to pay eventually even more for a dog if I can get my dog without this stress the legal way?

Regulation does not stop drink driving which is high risk and has high fines.

Regulation does not work.

..that's debatable ...I still believe that getting reminded of the hefty fines help some people to consider a plan B. Hefty fines are nothing else than 'positive punishment', losing the licence is 'negative punishment'...a little bit keen to state on a dog forum that those methods don't work.

Actually what changes behaviour is changing attitudes through education. It's the endless campaigns that cost plenty of money.