For All The Unethical (But Responsible) Dog Owners ...

[JulesP]

Different councils have different registration requirements though. Mine does give discounts for entire obedience trained dogs or for VCA members.

[Rebanne]

$192 over 10 years is only $19.20 a year, very cheap rego

[ness]

The joke here is that when the "trained dog" discount came in lots of people who had dogs with high level obedience titles had to argue with their councils to get the discount me included. Mine don't do grades at a club but they do eventually trial and apparently that wasn't enough although some councils if you took a dog with a show champion title it was deemed to be "trained" and get the discount.

[Dame Aussie]

Not to mention they only accept certain training schools. Completely arbitrary. It's rubbish. I get literally nothing for my registration.

[_PL_]

Tell me exactly where have you been called unethical?

As outlined in the title, this is a thread for the 'unethical' (but responsible) dog owner who doesn't de-sex his dog, and I'm aware that this is a very small minority here on this forum.

I'm one of these 'unethical' dog owners who doesn't get their dog de-sexed. Not only do I have to defend my decision sometimes, I also get fined, e.g. where I live the registration fees are a multiple higher for entire dogs compared to de-sexed dogs: I had to pay AU$ 188 while the fee for a de-sexed dog was AU$51. Why????...I registered my dog as a responsible owner, I walk my dog, I pick up, I do obedience with her ...why do I have to pay nearly 4 times more?

Because that's your choice. You have a choice here, it's not Norway. Others have a choice too. And charging extra is a mere encouragement to desex because it costs all rate payers (even the ones with no pets) money for every single unwanted dog that gets impounded, fed, then euthanised and disposed of.

I'm well aware of the arguments for promoting neutering - but if we look a little bit closer, where are all the dogs in the pounds are coming from?

1. unregistered back-yard breeders
   
2. puppy mills
   
3. mass production via registered breeders
   
4. owners who let their dog have 'this one litter'...or two...
   
5. accidents from dogs not de-sexed
   

Just going by your list, you clearly aren't aware or are just confused to think that reasons can be quantified. For someone so keen on throwing in google links to everything your list of reasons is a glaring assumption based on your limited experience and knowledge of anything other than your own dog and what you read on the internet.

While there are no reliable statistics available, I would put quite some money on the assumption, that the last item in the above list is actually the one with the smallest impact. We had our first entire bitch 40 years ago and never had an 'accident'! ...we just used and still use 'Common Sense' (for the younger readers: no, 'Common Sense' is not an app you can download on your smart phone).

Well good for you. Bravo, I'll have to take your word for it.

And there are plenty of statistics and reports because everyone is an expert on google. However stats can be manipulated and I wouldn't call any of them truly 'reliable' on either side of the fence.

Furthermore, it is very likely that actually the desperate efforts, trying to rescue every dog possible, contributes heavily to the indeed unethical breeding culture: as long as there are some kind of takers, irresponsible breeders will keep on going fueling the market!...in other words: the more dogs you save, the more they breed...

You've got to be f***ing kidding. That's the most atrocious piece of nonsense you've ever written and that's saying a lot. Pure ignorance and as per usual; insulting. Dogs are dying. Every minute of every day. Going by your theory lets just close down rescue and pounds for 6 months and see the market regulate itself. That'll work for sure. Clever you. :vomit:

The approach of addressing the overproduction via enforced de-sexing is IMO not only the wrong approach, but entails severe health risks: there is enough scientific evidence showing that more than 1 out of 10 de-sexed dogs will die due to cancer (and there are further significant, but non fatal, health issues associated with spaying). Ad the significant side effects due to over-vaccination and the 12-month heartworm shot with Moxidectin to the equation and it is not surprising that we see rising numbers of sad stories about dogs with severe health issues here in this forum.

I've had to explain this little gem of desexing wisdom before when you've popped in with unsolicited comments designed to frighten people for what reason? Do you really care or is it just about making the atmosphere in every thread go sour and railroad it to your soap box? So far this whole post is just a bizarre ramble when nobody has called you or anyone else unethical. In fact, YOU are the one to frequently criticise and belittle people who choose to desex. YOU are the one who takes every opportunity to make it clear that people who do desex are the irresponsible ones.

Another argument for de-sexing regarding behaviour improvement is also partly rebutted: while de-sexing can decrease aggression in male dogs, recent studies show that females actually will likely become more aggressive after spaying.

Again, random comment referring to 'studies' when there a billion out there that'll back up whatever you like.

In other countries de-sexing without necessity is animal cruelty: 'The Norwegian Animal Welfare Act makes it clear that surgical procedures are not to be used to adapt animals to the needs of humans, unless strictly necessary.' And despite such an opposing approach the Vikings don't have problems with overfilled pounds or straying dogs!

Norway's system is just as mental as trying to enforce mandatory desexing. And where are your govt reports to further enlighten us on Norway's decision to remove the basic right as a pet owner to make a decision for your own animal?

Unfortunately, scientific evidence will always be beaten by the temptations of convenience, and how convenient is it not having to address the needs of an entire bitch once or twice a year?...however, the oh so highly rated convenience achieved via de-sexing might be short-lived once the health issues start.

Tripe. Again, another example of you looking down on and belittling those who choose to desex as lazy and irresponsible.

Having just dealt with pyometra, my position on de-sexing has changed a bit. I would always de-sex now. Pyometra is frigging nasty. I have had no problems with any de-sexed animal - cats, dogs & horses oh and a steer!

Amen!

In the years of desexing hundreds of pets I'm yet to see anything negative related to neutering except for the entire ones who arrive with testicular or mammary cancers, hernias and pyometra.

And in comparison with the life and death situation thousands of impounded BYB dogs and cats find themselves in there is not enough stats, research and reports in the world to comfort me that their parent dogs had really nice owners and won't get hemangiosarcoma. I don't give two shits if it was an 'oops' one-off crossbreed litter from a great home. If you truly cared about being an actual human being and not feeding into the cycle of death down the generations then microchip, vaccinate and desex all those pups before they go anywhere. Don't contribute to the next generation.

In short, everyone regards themselves as good/responsible pet owners. Everyone!

We all have our own individual definition as well.

I'm ambivalent to most except the cruel, neglectful or those contributing (even just once) to the thousands of pound dogs and cats. Oh, and owners of females sitting in backyards quietly dying of pyo and mammary cancer ---- but at least it's not the 'severe health risks' a desexed dog would face should their irresponsible, lazy, uncaring owner trying to save a buck on rego actually be so barbaric as to do it!

[Dogdragon]

Well I have to wade in on this one as I am faced with this issue at the moment. My council have the following on their website:

Animal Registration

Microchip Your Pet

The Companion Animals Act 1998 makes it compulsory to microchip all puppies and kittens by 12 weeks of age and registered by 6 months of age. Any dogs or cats who change owners need to be microchipped and registered. Microchipped animals are registered on the NSW Companion Animals Register. Owner information needs to be kept up to date. Contact Council if you need to change any details.

How Much Does Registration Cost?

Lifetime registration on the NSW Companion Animals Register is available from Blue Mountains City Council. This is a one off payment and the animal is registered for life, anywhere in New South Wales.

Current Registration Fees:

• $192 for undesexed dog or cat

• $52 for a dog or cat owned by a registered breeder that is kept for breeding purposes

• $52 for a desexed dog or cat

• $21 for a desexed dog or cat owned by a pensioner

• FREE for an Assitance Animal or Working Dog

http://www.bmcc.nsw....alregistration/

$192 for an undesexed dog or cat......What do I get for it?.....I get that its to do with stopping unwanted litters but it doesn't stop this.......Doesn't stop it.....Puppy mills, pet shop owners don't have to outlay this cost, they keep breeding, only the pet owner has to pay. Yes it encourages pet owners to desex but it seems to me that this is simply revenue raising. What if I want to show my male dog with unlimited registration paper? I cant show a male dog that has been desexed (not sure about a bitch).

Responsible pet owners are paying for the irresponsible ones. The fee structure doesn't seem to do anything for the issue of unwanted dogs and cats.

It seems to me the puppies aren't the problem. Even in cases where a pregnant girl or a young litter comes into rescue they are in high demand by rescue groups to take and their puppies are more easily sold for a higher price.

It doesn't take much energy for anyone to sell puppies to new owners who present as people who will look after their dog and be responsible for it.

Its the owners who have life changing situations, who cant stand the dog because it doesn't match their expectations, or basically people who see them as they see everything else - easily replaceable.

Until the real stats are available we all just guess as to where they come from and who could be held more responsible. No matter how hard a breeder or a rescue tries to screen em, educate them, or support them the final onus for responsibility of looking after a dog is on the owner .

Like Willem I don't believe there should be a system that rewards people for desexing their dogs over other responsible behaviours . How many desexed dogs are dumped?

All of the studies including the one via the ACT where desexing is mandatory show that it doesn't change one little dot the numbers dumped - it does change the numbers of desexed dogs dumped.

A government should not take the place of educated decisions made between an owner and their vet and all responsible behaviours should be rewarded .

I am aware that the registration fee applies for life even if an animal changes hands but seriously Steve, this statement does not pass the sniff test.

We are not required to register our dogs until they are 6 months of age. Are you telling me you register them at 8 weeks before they go to their new homes as breeding dogs?

And, what you are doing is circumventing the very system you support. Not all of these animals would be kept by their new owners for breeding purposes. How could you possibly know that?

So in essence you say you support it but you don’t.

No puppies are not the issue. No one will dump a puppy now will they? Wait till they get older and the human decides it too hard or not pretty enough or doesn’t fit well with the kid…..umpteen different reasons that humans find to justify a dog being disposable. An example is my Jess girl, owners bought her advertised as a rotti, no papers and wasn’t even close to a rotti. Once they realized that (12 months) they say they are taking her to the pound.

Charging higher registration rates for undesexed dogs is not going to change the situation. The responsible owners pay the higher prices and the irresponsible ones find ways around that system.

I personally have other issues with desexing a male dog also.

[Dogdragon]

$192 over 10 years is only $19.20 a year, very cheap rego

$52 over 10 years is only $5.20 per year, even cheaper rego.

[Dogdragon]

Because that's your choice. You have a choice here, it's not Norway. Others have a choice too. And charging extra is a mere encouragement to desex because it costs all rate payers (even the ones with no pets) money for every single unwanted dog that gets impounded, fed, then euthanised and disposed of.

This does nothing to reduce the amount of dogs in rescue… as long as there on dogs on this planet there will be dogs in rescue. Why? Because people, for the most part exploit animals for dollars and think of animals as disposable items. Change that and we just might have a chance…..Higher registration fees for undesexed animals is nothing more than revenue raising.

[BarbedWire]

Bravo powerlegs. A brilliant post. :thumbsup:

I tried to reply directly but I wasn't allowed because of the number of quotes.

[Willem]

So many lazy, selfish dog owners in here Do your research and I think you'll find that in the wild, pet dogs don't desex themselves.

It might be inconvenient to lose a dog to pyo but at least you aren't subjecting it to unnecessary surgery. Dogs should be allowed to live wonderful, natural lives where they die of vaccine-preventable diseases or cancer of the reproductive organs, none of this irresponsible preventative medicine nonsense.

Threads like this make me think that perhaps compulsory desexing of certain humans might not be a bad idea.

:laugh: I totally love you Maddy.

Hitler is dead, but his morbid ideologies wrt dissidents seems to live for ever...

Eta: ...that might be actually the real cause why it is so hard to change things for the better....

Edited May 11, 2016 by Willem

[Willem]

Here's the link http://www.whitehorse.vic.gov.au/IgnitionSuite/uploads/docs/Dog%20and%20Cat%20Registration%20Fees%20New%20Requirements%20FAQs%20DPI%20January%202013.pdf

My council charges $70 per year for registration if there are no discounts applied. The discounts apply as follows:

$42 if desexed but no microchipping or training

$63 if not desexed but either microchipped or trained

$35 if desexed and either microchipped or trained

$56 if not desexed but both microchipped and trained

$28 if desexed, microchipped and trained.

There are also further discounts if you're entitled to concession rates. I pay $35 per year because I've never bothered to provide the council with a copy of Justice's obedience certificate.

I thought microchipping is mandatory?...obviously not. As a side note: I wonder whether eye scanners (like some mobile phones provide instead of finger print scanners) could be also used to identify dogs. If it would work there would be a database with the code each scan provides for each dog instead of the microchip number. The big advantage would be that you could identify any - registered dog - just via your mobile phone (if the phone has the feature)...might be handy...

[Willem]

http://www.rspca.org.au/sites/default/files/website/The-facts/Statistics/RSPCA_Australia-Report_on_animal_outcomes-2014-2015.pdf ...some numbers; for the past 5 years the RSPCA received a little bit less than 50,000 dogs per year. That counts for a little bit more than 1% of the total dog population (4.2 Mill) in Australia....so it this 1% the reason for aiming to de-sex the other 99%? ....seems to be at least a weird approach....

[Rebanne]

$192 over 10 years is only $19.20 a year, very cheap rego

$52 over 10 years is only $5.20 per year, even cheaper rego.

either one is cheap, stop whinging and pay it

[Willem]

Having just dealt with pyometra, my position on de-sexing has changed a bit. I would always de-sex now. Pyometra is frigging nasty. I have had no problems with any de-sexed animal - cats, dogs & horses oh and a steer!

I understand that going through this is a terrifying experience (I followed your thread about Amber) - however I don't believe that dealing with cancer is more pleasant. Here a study that shows some interesting figures about mortality for pyometra: http://bmcvetres.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1746-6148-10-6...interestingly, the mortality for the medical treated ones was 0%!...the surgical treated ones (OHE) was only 1%. The overall mortality considering also euthanized dogs (due to various reasons) was 10%.

Compare these figures with the survival rate of dogs with cancer due to de-sexing http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0055937:

quote:

...For females, the timing of neutering is more problematical because early neutering significantly increases the incidence rate of CCL from near zero to almost 8 percent, and late neutering increases the rates of HSA to 4 times that of the 1.6 percent rate for intact females and to 5.7 percent for MCT, which was not diagnosed in intact females.

...from zero to 5.7% for MCT!!!...plus all the other side effects. Based on these figures pyo seems to be the less dangerous evil...

Edited May 11, 2016 by Willem

[ness]

Microchipping was not mandatory in SA for many years - I think that may have changed or is in the process of being changed.

[Steph M]

$192 over 10 years is only $19.20 a year, very cheap rego

I'd lobe yearly reg! We pay almost that per year!

[Steph M]

Powelegs & Maddy, god love you both.

[korbin13]

No one is forcing anybody to desex their dogs.

If you choose not to, you pay the higher rate of dog registration and it's not like it is exorbitant. And to be frank you could probably not pay your registration either, the only way you will likely get caught is if your dog is roaming. And in our town even registered dogs get fined.

Irresponsible owners that let their dogs endlessly breed are probably not going to register them. Councils and governments aren't going to pour money into getting these laws enforced either. They only use them when you get caught.

[Steve]

Here's the link http://www.whitehors...uary%202013.pdf

My council charges $70 per year for registration if there are no discounts applied. The discounts apply as follows:

$42 if desexed but no microchipping or training

$63 if not desexed but either microchipped or trained

$35 if desexed and either microchipped or trained

$56 if not desexed but both microchipped and trained

$28 if desexed, microchipped and trained.

There are also further discounts if you're entitled to concession rates. I pay $35 per year because I've never bothered to provide the council with a copy of Justice's obedience certificate.

I thought microchipping is mandatory?...obviously not. As a side note: I wonder whether eye scanners (like some mobile phones provide instead of finger print scanners) could be also used to identify dogs. If it would work there would be a database with the code each scan provides for each dog instead of the microchip number. The big advantage would be that you could identify any - registered dog - just via your mobile phone (if the phone has the feature)...might be handy...

Microchipping in NSW has been mandatory since the early 90's but still a large percentage of dogs being dumped are not chipped . Just because its the law doesn't mean everyone follows it and after July when new regs come in for microchipping in NSW even less will be chipped.

[Steve]

Well I have to wade in on this one as I am faced with this issue at the moment. My council have the following on their website:

Animal Registration

Microchip Your Pet

The Companion Animals Act 1998 makes it compulsory to microchip all puppies and kittens by 12 weeks of age and registered by 6 months of age. Any dogs or cats who change owners need to be microchipped and registered. Microchipped animals are registered on the NSW Companion Animals Register. Owner information needs to be kept up to date. Contact Council if you need to change any details.

How Much Does Registration Cost?

Lifetime registration on the NSW Companion Animals Register is available from Blue Mountains City Council. This is a one off payment and the animal is registered for life, anywhere in New South Wales.

Current Registration Fees:

• $192 for undesexed dog or cat

• $52 for a dog or cat owned by a registered breeder that is kept for breeding purposes

• $52 for a desexed dog or cat

• $21 for a desexed dog or cat owned by a pensioner

• FREE for an Assitance Animal or Working Dog

http://www.bmcc.nsw....alregistration/

$192 for an undesexed dog or cat......What do I get for it?.....I get that its to do with stopping unwanted litters but it doesn't stop this.......Doesn't stop it.....Puppy mills, pet shop owners don't have to outlay this cost, they keep breeding, only the pet owner has to pay. Yes it encourages pet owners to desex but it seems to me that this is simply revenue raising. What if I want to show my male dog with unlimited registration paper? I cant show a male dog that has been desexed (not sure about a bitch).

Responsible pet owners are paying for the irresponsible ones. The fee structure doesn't seem to do anything for the issue of unwanted dogs and cats.

It seems to me the puppies aren't the problem. Even in cases where a pregnant girl or a young litter comes into rescue they are in high demand by rescue groups to take and their puppies are more easily sold for a higher price.

It doesn't take much energy for anyone to sell puppies to new owners who present as people who will look after their dog and be responsible for it.

Its the owners who have life changing situations, who cant stand the dog because it doesn't match their expectations, or basically people who see them as they see everything else - easily replaceable.

Until the real stats are available we all just guess as to where they come from and who could be held more responsible. No matter how hard a breeder or a rescue tries to screen em, educate them, or support them the final onus for responsibility of looking after a dog is on the owner .

Like Willem I don't believe there should be a system that rewards people for desexing their dogs over other responsible behaviours . How many desexed dogs are dumped?

All of the studies including the one via the ACT where desexing is mandatory show that it doesn't change one little dot the numbers dumped - it does change the numbers of desexed dogs dumped.

A government should not take the place of educated decisions made between an owner and their vet and all responsible behaviours should be rewarded .

I am aware that the registration fee applies for life even if an animal changes hands but seriously Steve, this statement does not pass the sniff test.

We are not required to register our dogs until they are 6 months of age. Are you telling me you register them at 8 weeks before they go to their new homes as breeding dogs?

And, what you are doing is circumventing the very system you support. Not all of these animals would be kept by their new owners for breeding purposes. How could you possibly know that?

So in essence you say you support it but you don't.

No puppies are not the issue. No one will dump a puppy now will they? Wait till they get older and the human decides it too hard or not pretty enough or doesn't fit well with the kid…..umpteen different reasons that humans find to justify a dog being disposable. An example is my Jess girl, owners bought her advertised as a rotti, no papers and wasn't even close to a rotti. Once they realized that (12 months) they say they are taking her to the pound.

Charging higher registration rates for undesexed dogs is not going to change the situation. The responsible owners pay the higher prices and the irresponsible ones find ways around that system.

I personally have other issues with desexing a male dog also.

Just because we are not required to register our dogs until they are 6 months of age doesn't mean we are not able to register them at 1 day of age. They are breeding dogs and all have Dogs NSW papers and MDBA papers they are mine when I register them and I have 14 days to transfer the new owner details. They usually go home between 9 and 12 weeks but often don't go until they are much older after they have done their preliminary training. I'm not circumventing the system - the dogs are microchipped, registered in the new owner's name and the rego is paid which I recoup from the new owner. the council gets their money. Not sure where Ive ever been seen to be supporting a system which charges a higher fee to people who choose not to desex their dogs unless they have paid membership and prefix charges to an approved body .

Edited to ad in NSW you have to register your dog by 6 months of age .Dogs NSW require someone to be a member for 18 months before they get a prefix so if we assume that someone owns a breeding dog and intends to go through this with DOgs NSW and follow the NSW law they would be charged the higher rate. at the dog's 6 month age. When their prefixes are approved there is no refund .

Edited May 12, 2016 by Steve