For All The Unethical (But Responsible) Dog Owners ...

[Willem]

As outlined in the title, this is a thread for the 'unethical' (but responsible) dog owner who doesn't de-sex his dog, and I'm aware that this is a very small minority here on this forum.

I'm one of these 'unethical' dog owners who doesn't get their dog de-sexed. Not only do I have to defend my decision sometimes, I also get fined, e.g. where I live the registration fees are a multiple higher for entire dogs compared to de-sexed dogs: I had to pay AU$ 188 while the fee for a de-sexed dog was AU$51. Why????...I registered my dog as a responsible owner, I walk my dog, I pick up, I do obedience with her ...why do I have to pay nearly 4 times more?

I'm well aware of the arguments for promoting neutering - but if we look a little bit closer, where are all the dogs in the pounds are coming from?

1. unregistered back-yard breeders
   
2. puppy mills
   
3. mass production via registered breeders
   
4. owners who let their dog have 'this one litter'...or two...
   
5. accidents from dogs not de-sexed
   

While there are no reliable statistics available, I would put quite some money on the assumption, that the last item in the above list is actually the one with the smallest impact. We had our first entire bitch 40 years ago and never had an 'accident'! ...we just used and still use 'Common Sense' (for the younger readers: no, 'Common Sense' is not an app you can download on your smart phone).

Furthermore, it is very likely that actually the desperate efforts, trying to rescue every dog possible, contributes heavily to the indeed unethical breeding culture: as long as there are some kind of takers, irresponsible breeders will keep on going fueling the market!...in other words: the more dogs you save, the more they breed...

The approach of addressing the overproduction via enforced de-sexing is IMO not only the wrong approach, but entails severe health risks: there is enough scientific evidence showing that more than 1 out of 10 de-sexed dogs will die due to cancer (and there are further significant, but non fatal, health issues associated with spaying). Ad the significant side effects due to over-vaccination and the 12-month heartworm shot with Moxidectin to the equation and it is not surprising that we see rising numbers of sad stories about dogs with severe health issues here in this forum.

Another argument for de-sexing regarding behaviour improvement is also partly rebutted: while de-sexing can decrease aggression in male dogs, recent studies show that females actually will likely become more aggressive after spaying.

In other countries de-sexing without necessity is animal cruelty: 'The Norwegian Animal Welfare Act makes it clear that surgical procedures are not to be used to adapt animals to the needs of humans, unless strictly necessary.' And despite such an opposing approach the Vikings don't have problems with overfilled pounds or straying dogs!

Unfortunately, scientific evidence will always be beaten by the temptations of convenience, and how convenient is it not having to address the needs of an entire bitch once or twice a year?...however, the oh so highly rated convenience achieved via de-sexing might be short-lived once the health issues start.

Edited May 11, 2016 by Willem

[JulesP]

Jolly good. Hope you never have to deal with pyometra.

[Willem]

Jolly good. Hope you never have to deal with pyometra.

pyometra is an infection caused by bacteria and can be linked to a weakened immune system...it is no coincidence that it occurs much more often in older dogs: normal aging and heat cycles play a part, but also the devastating impact over-vaccination has on the immune system. I'm still waiting to see a study that assess the possible impact of over-vaccination on pyometra....saying this, I never saw it in our dogs and the last bitch was 17 years old when she died. Drugs (especially steroids) and the loose use of ABs seem to play a role too.

I'm not saying that it is preventable in every case, but if it really should happen one day the chances for survival for my dog are much better than the chances she would have with cancer!

Eta:... ...italic text...

Edited May 11, 2016 by Willem

[BarbedWire]

As outlined in the title, this is a thread for the 'unethical' (but responsible) dog owner who doesn't de-sex his dog, and I'm aware that this is a very small minority here on this forum.

I'm one of these 'unethical' dog owners who doesn't get their dog de-sexed. Not only do I have to defend my decision sometimes, I also get fined, e.g. where I live the registration fees are a multiple higher for entire dogs compared to de-sexed dogs: I had to pay AU$ 188 while the fee for a de-sexed dog was AU$51. Why????...I registered my dog as a responsible owner, I walk my dog, I pick up, I do obedience with her ...why do I have to pay nearly 4 times more?

I'm well aware of the arguments for promoting neutering - but if we look a little bit closer, where are all the dogs in the pounds are coming from?

1. unregistered back-yard breeders
   
2. puppy mills
   
3. mass production via registered breeders
   
4. owners who let their dog have 'this one litter'...or two...
   
5. accidents from dogs not de-sexed
   

Where did the above information come from?

While there are no reliable statistics available, I would put quite some money on the assumption, that the last item in the above list is actually the one with the smallest impact. We had our first entire bitch 40 years ago and never had an 'accident'! ...we just used and still use 'Common Sense' (for the younger readers: no, 'Common Sense' is not an app you can download on your smart phone).

Really.How do you know?

Furthermore, it is very likely that actually the desperate efforts, trying to rescue every dog possible, contributes heavily to the indeed unethical breeding culture: as long as there are some kind of takers, irresponsible breeders will keep on going fueling the market!...in other words: the more dogs you save, the more they breed...

Evidence?

The approach of addressing the overproduction via enforced de-sexing is IMO not only the wrong approach, but entails severe health risks: there is enough scientific evidence showing that more than 1 out of 10 de-sexed dogs will die due to cancer (and there are further significant, but non fatal, health issues associated with spaying). Ad the significant side effects due to over-vaccination and the 12-month heartworm shot with Moxidectin to the equation and it is not surprising that we see rising numbers of sad stories about dogs with severe health issues here in this forum.

Name the scientific evidence please

Another argument for de-sexing regarding behaviour improvement is also partly rebutted: while de-sexing can decrease aggression in male dogs, recent studies show that females actually will likely become more aggressive after spaying.

What recent studies?

In other countries de-sexing without necessity is animal cruelty: 'The Norwegian Animal Welfare Act makes it clear that surgical procedures are not to be used to adapt animals to the needs of humans, unless strictly necessary.' And despite such an opposing approach the Vikings don't have problems with overfilled pounds or straying dogs!

Why should we follow other countries?

Unfortunately, scientific evidence will always be beaten by the temptations of convenience, and how convenient is it not having to address the needs of an entire bitch once or twice a year?...however, the oh so highly rated convenience achieved via de-sexing might be short-lived once the health issues start.

Is this thread for real? Please have a look at the rescue forums and look closely in the eyes of all those dogs facing euthanasia.

[BarbedWire]

I once had a pure bred dog who we did not plan to have desexed. At 9 months she came into season and one day when I came home she was missing. I found her outside a motel mating with three dogs, one of whom was the motel's guard dog and was actually on a chain. I took her to the vet and she had an injection to prevent pregnancy.

I have also owned other bitches who were not bred and every time they came into season about nine weeks later they had a false pregnancy which was very distressing for all of us.

If you don't plan to breed or show your dog have it desexed.

[Florise]

I once had a pure bred dog who we did not plan to have desexed. At 9 months she came into season and one day when I came home she was missing. I found her outside a motel mating with three dogs, one of whom was the motel's guard dog and was actually on a chain.

That is poor management on your part. If an owner is educated and responsible there will be no issues in managing entire dogs. Desexing is purely for the benefit of people who cannot adequately manage bitches in season. I am not sure how a phantom pregnancy could be distressing for you??

[Starkehre]

What's unethical about leaving your dog's entire??

I don't get why you describe not desexing as unethical.

[CHA]

My dogs that were rescued from the pound have all been mixed breed of indeterminate parentage, not designer crosses, not backyard pure breed. That, plus all the other mixed breeds I saw there would lead me to believe irresponsible owners of undesexed dogs are what has contributed to all these poor guys being dumped there.

[Willem]

I once had a pure bred dog who we did not plan to have desexed. At 9 months she came into season and one day when I came home she was missing. I found her outside a motel mating with three dogs, one of whom was the motel's guard dog and was actually on a chain.

That is poor management on your part. If an owner is educated and responsible there will be no issues in managing entire dogs. Desexing is purely for the benefit of people who cannot adequately manage bitches in season. I am not sure how a phantom pregnancy could be distressing for you??

yeah, ...and that (poor management of other dog owners) is one of the reasons why I have to pay nearly 4 times more when I registered my dog :) ...a bitch doesn't come into heat over night, there are obvious signs!!!...it puzzles me that some dog owners use their incompetence regarding handling entire dogs to justify de-sexing!...what's next?...amputating 2 legs if the dog is too fast?

Edited May 11, 2016 by Willem

[Willem]

What's unethical about leaving your dog's entire??

I don't get why you describe not desexing as unethical.

...take it with a pinch of sarcasm :) ...if it would be up to some members here dog owners wouldn't have a choice at all regarding de-sexing.

[CHA]

How do you decide from the general public who is "responsible" and who is "irresponsible"? How do you know who is going to ensure their dog will not accidentally get out, it happens all the time going by the lost dogs pages. Registered breeders have to be responsible, but Joe public... Not necessarily so.

[Willem]

My dogs that were rescued from the pound have all been mixed breed of indeterminate parentage, not designer crosses, not backyard pure breed. That, plus all the other mixed breeds I saw there would lead me to believe irresponsible owners of undesexed dogs are what has contributed to all these poor guys being dumped there.

without papers classification of any dog can be somehow dodgy;

wrt 'irresponsible owners': you might be right, I still would like to see some stats disclosing from where all these dogs in the pounds are coming from. However, I believe it is more important to investigate why countries with only a small percentage of de-sexed dogs and countries like Norway where de-sexing is prohibited (exceptions are life threatening conditions) don't have this problem with overloaded pounds and straying dogs.

[Willem]

How do you decide from the general public who is "responsible" and who is "irresponsible"? How do you know who is going to ensure their dog will not accidentally get out, it happens all the time going by the lost dogs pages. Registered breeders have to be responsible, but Joe public... Not necessarily so.

that's the big question!...you need a licence to drive a car, a different licence to drive a bus...but no licence to marry or to own a dog ...or having kids... :D ...

If there are so many irresponsible owners out there (if these are really the ones causing all the problems for the pounds), then we have to raise the question why it is so easy for them to become a dog owner?

[Dame Aussie]

I once had a pure bred dog who we did not plan to have desexed. At 9 months she came into season and one day when I came home she was missing. I found her outside a motel mating with three dogs, one of whom was the motel's guard dog and was actually on a chain.

That is poor management on your part. If an owner is educated and responsible there will be no issues in managing entire dogs. Desexing is purely for the benefit of people who cannot adequately manage bitches in season. I am not sure how a phantom pregnancy could be distressing for you??

Spot on. My female dog isn't desexed, my male is as he was a rescue. This does not make me unethical or irresponsible. My dogs have never been to the pound, my female has never been pregnant and having worked at pounds know all too well about dogs being euthanized. There are far more factors involved in irresponsible breeding and ownership than just keeping an entire dog.

I think there should be discounts on registration if my dog has never cost the council anything, but no, I pay more than the idiot down the road whos' dog visits the pound regularly....but it's desexed so hey, he must be responsible..

Edited May 11, 2016 by Dame Aussie

[Willem]

...that's an interesting one: http://www.burkesbackyard.com.au/fact-sheets/pets/pet-road-tests/dog-dumpage/#.VzKsdo9OJhE

[asal]

For so long I kept hearing how controlling purebred breeders would reduce the hundreds of thousands of stray and unwanted dogs.

in this country of over 23.13 million. There are estimated to be 4.2 million pet dogs in Australia; 19 dogs for every 100 people.

These figures might put some perspective as to the millions bred by person or persons unknown

ANKC purebred puppies of all breeds registered for the whole of Australia

Year + Grand total all purebred puppies registered on Main and Limit register for that year.

1986 95,792

1987 97,917

1988 92,089

1989 86,586

1990 87,768

1991 82,062

1992 80,693

1993 80,071

1994 85,415

1995 81,389

1996 84,718

1997 68,637

1998 89,922

1999 73,061

2000 77,559

2001 69,946

2002 69,419

2003 66,710

2004 64,189

2005 62,340

2006 61,524

2007 64,074

2008 63,387

2009 66,588

2010 66,040

2011 63,465

2012 64,224

2013 66,904

2014 69,274

2015 70,130

if you want to see the breeds breakdown here is the link

http://ankc.org.au/media/4468/rego-stats-list_to-15v2.pdf

so few breeders are prepared to main register puppies now many breeds are becoming so low in numbers they could be classed as endangered.

think how many Maltese for example you can see out for a walk or in a pound yet, 196 for 2015, you see yet see how few registered traceable breeders have actually bred any.

Edited May 11, 2016 by asal

[korbin13]

You aren't getting fined for having an entire bitch. People are getting discounts for desexing their dogs. Here it is $100 for a desexed dog for lifetime registration. Lifetime registration is also a discount to encourage more people to register their dogs.

[Willem]

interesting figures...assuming an average life span of 10 years, registered pure dog breeders count for just approx. 15% of the total dog population in Australia!...I guess their impact is indeed minimal...leaves:

1.unregistered back-yard breeders

2.puppy mills

3.mass production via registered breeders

4.owners who let their dog have 'this one litter'...or two...

5.accidents from dogs not de-sexed

[Willem]

You aren't getting fined for having an entire bitch. People are getting discounts for desexing their dogs. Here it is $100 for a desexed dog for lifetime registration. Lifetime registration is also a discount to encourage more people to register their dogs.

...so people who can't (or doesn't want) manage entire dogs get financial support, however owners who put a lot of effort into addressing the needs of entire dogs not?...maybe we should start with this somehow 'strange reward system' regarding required changes.

I just renewed my driver licence and was positively surprised that I only had to pay half due to my driving records. If the RTA would adopt the dog registration fee scheme I guess the ones with a lot of demerit points would have to pay less so they can pay their fines...

[Little Gifts]

Here's my take on part of the problem for homeless dogs and rescue groups and why council registration rates are like this, trying to curb the creation of potentially homeless dogs in the first place. People who deliberately mate their dogs to make some money don't care where those puppies go and I believe it is highly likely the wrong dog in the wrong home is a reason for a percentage of surrenders or dogs who end up at the pound and don't get picked up by their owners. These 'breeders' of undesexed dogs don't care about the future of the puppy they have bred but the money. Then you have the oops litters and once the owners have worked out they can't palm off a 'cute puppy' to friends, family, neighbours or give them away on Gumtree they get surrendered. These people have no clue how to work out what is the right home for that dog and just keep their fingers crossed someone doesn't try to return one. They didn't want them in the first place so they certainly don't put much effort into finding the right home - they look for any home. These puppies have no value to anyone and are the true unwanted. Enforced desexing (or by hitting an owner in the hip pocket) could have an impact on these two scenarios, making it hard for deliberate back yard breeding and harder for accidental matings.

But I think education is also missing if we want to reduce the over production of unneeded dogs, inappropriate purchasing and dumping cycle. Many people seem quite clueless about owning entire dogs, wouldn't have a clue their girl was in season until after she had escaped from the yard or even imagine the creative ways a dog will access a bitch. Loads of people in rescue have heard the stories from people who own an entire male and an undesexed female in the same house - "I never thought a brother/sister or mother/son would mate together!" or "I only took my eye off them both for a minute!". Many of us have also heard the hilarious "She should have one litter first!"!

So educate about the pros, cons and risks of desexing and not desexing, include financial information regarding the cost of desexing (some people think it costs too much to even consider) and also the cost of whelping and rehoming a litter and raising a dog from puppyhood for its entire life. Give people the information so they can be responsible for all their dogs needs. Create incentives for responsible ownership and create barriers for irresponsible deliberate breeding and selling. Make those effers go and get real jobs!