Learning Drives, Could Do With Some Help

[sporti]

Ive read the Training in drive thread. And have been learning about various commands, what drives are utilised to have the dog offer the behaviour on command. So i am using a set of drives as: pack drive, prey/play drive, defense drive, fight drive.

which you may or maynot believe to be accurate.

What drives would others say, are occurring when this happens between 2 dogs.

We have a new fence, we have a new pair of fence barkers. Took to it like a duck to water! Its a very self reinforcing game. And one that i am managing successfully.

Here's what happens.

2 dogs are: female, desexed rottie x dogue de bordeaux (french mastiff). and GSD high drives, medium threshold to drives, and low for prey. Non existent till now, fight drive.

If let, the dogs would run up and down the fence line, barking at passers by, till the passers by were shoo'd off by my brave dogs.

So drives are?

pack: defense: prey?

If allowed to, the dogs can get pretty hyped up in prey drive, then if the dog disappears, they can rebound aggression, onto the nearby dog, and a spat ensues. Fast to start, fast to be stopped by the rottie cross. She then has him leave the area she is in. He backs down to her. Wisely:)

So is that the rottie x girl going into defense only? or is there fight drive, her behaviour of dog nastiness, escalates till the GSD backs down. I truly believe, she would harm him if he pushed it further. So does my GSD.

I am unable to ask this question in the original thread, as its too old. But still would like some help on this.

[Kavik]

I'm not sure that it is important to know what drives are being utilised in this situation? The more important thing is how to deal with it?

[The Spotted Devil]

Agree with Kavik, trying to tease out internal motivations are generally a waste of time that is better spent dealing with the behaviour.

[persephone]

Agree with Kavik, trying to tease out internal motivations are generally a waste of time that is better spent dealing with the behaviour.

Another in agreement here - how are you managing this behaviour ?It can be very hard to stop ! :)

[Willem]

Ive read the Training in drive thread. And have been learning about various commands, what drives are utilised to have the dog offer the behaviour on command. So i am using a set of drives as: pack drive, prey/play drive, defense drive, fight drive.

which you may or maynot believe to be accurate.

What drives would others say, are occurring when this happens between 2 dogs.

We have a new fence, we have a new pair of fence barkers. Took to it like a duck to water! Its a very self reinforcing game. And one that i am managing successfully.

Here's what happens.

2 dogs are: female, desexed rottie x dogue de bordeaux (french mastiff). and GSD high drives, medium threshold to drives, and low for prey. Non existent till now, fight drive.

If let, the dogs would run up and down the fence line, barking at passers by, till the passers by were shoo'd off by my brave dogs.

So drives are?

pack: defense: prey?

If allowed to, the dogs can get pretty hyped up in prey drive, then if the dog disappears, they can rebound aggression, onto the nearby dog, and a spat ensues. Fast to start, fast to be stopped by the rottie cross. She then has him leave the area she is in. He backs down to her. Wisely:)

So is that the rottie x girl going into defense only? or is there fight drive, her behaviour of dog nastiness, escalates till the GSD backs down. I truly believe, she would harm him if he pushed it further. So does my GSD.

I am unable to ask this question in the original thread, as its too old. But still would like some help on this.

what exactly is your question?...is it about the over aroused state?....or do you want some ideas how to train your dogs not to chase by passers?

wrt over-aroused:...no matter what 'drive', the outcome is the same: dogs (other mammals...humans etc. too) become less sensitive and more aggressive due to the adrenalin and other agents released in the brain - in such a state they can be better and faster hunters, fighters etc. and don't get distracted by smaller injuries (all part of the evolution). Downside is that behaviours can be 'tougher' and affects close environment (people, other dogs, objects...). You can train dogs in an aroused state so they learn how to control the abundance of energy without directing the aggression towards innocent bystanders...challenging, but doable.

wrt 'by passers chasing': it depends on what you want to achieve: should they still alarm, but stop barking and chasing on a cue?...or do you want them to ignore passers totally?...the game plan for this 2 options is more or less the same: you need some decoys outside the fence - the exercise would be that they only go away when the dogs stop barking. At the start you have to find out what the trigger zone is, so the distance of the decoy(s) to the fence has to be adjusted to keep the arousal at a level where you still can control the dogs...wanted behaviour (stop barking) gets rewarded.

[sporti]

I am preventing this behaviour occurring, by keeping the dogs behind another fence, with no visability of the fence line they like to bark at.

So it is not occurring.

Like i said, i am managing it.

Would i like some advice on how to train it out. Sure! yes please.

Why am i asking what drives are in play? because that is what i am studying right now. So do you know?

am i not allowed to know AND train it out?

[sporti]

Ive read the Training in drive thread. And have been learning about various commands, what drives are utilised to have the dog offer the behaviour on command. So i am using a set of drives as: pack drive, prey/play drive, defense drive, fight drive.

which you may or maynot believe to be accurate.

What drives would others say, are occurring when this happens between 2 dogs.

We have a new fence, we have a new pair of fence barkers. Took to it like a duck to water! Its a very self reinforcing game. And one that i am managing successfully.

Here's what happens.

2 dogs are: female, desexed rottie x dogue de bordeaux (french mastiff). and GSD high drives, medium threshold to drives, and low for prey. Non existent till now, fight drive.

If let, the dogs would run up and down the fence line, barking at passers by, till the passers by were shoo'd off by my brave dogs.

So drives are?

pack: defense: prey?

If allowed to, the dogs can get pretty hyped up in prey drive, then if the dog disappears, they can rebound aggression, onto the nearby dog, and a spat ensues. Fast to start, fast to be stopped by the rottie cross. She then has him leave the area she is in. He backs down to her. Wisely:)

So is that the rottie x girl going into defense only? or is there fight drive, her behaviour of dog nastiness, escalates till the GSD backs down. I truly believe, she would harm him if he pushed it further. So does my GSD.

I am unable to ask this question in the original thread, as its too old. But still would like some help on this.

what exactly is your question?...is it about the over aroused state?....or do you want some ideas how to train your dogs not to chase by passers?

wrt over-aroused:...no matter what 'drive', the outcome is the same: dogs (other mammals...humans etc. too) become less sensitive and more aggressive due to the adrenalin and other agents released in the brain - in such a state they can be better and faster hunters, fighters etc. and don't get distracted by smaller injuries (all part of the evolution). Downside is that behaviours can be 'tougher' and affects close environment (people, other dogs, objects...). You can train dogs in an aroused state so they learn how to control the abundance of energy without directing the aggression towards innocent bystanders...challenging, but doable.

wrt 'by passers chasing': it depends on what you want to achieve: should they still alarm, but stop barking and chasing on a cue?...or do you want them to ignore passers totally?...the game plan for this 2 options is more or less the same: you need some decoys outside the fence - the exercise would be that they only go away when the dogs stop barking. At the start you have to find out what the trigger zone is, so the distance of the decoy(s) to the fence has to be adjusted to keep the arousal at a level where you still can control the dogs...wanted behaviour (stop barking) gets rewarded.

I dont need them to alarm, we have geese, ducks and next door's jack russell terrier doing a grand job.

I would like them neutral.

I'll make an effort to find a decoy or 2

thanks

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Would i like some advice on how to train it out. Sure! yes please.

I would first teach both dogs "collar grab" game eg pair grabbing their collar with a treat they like - repeat about five times. Try to get one session a day.

Then if my dog barks inappropriately or charges the fence (I think this is prey drive but I really don't care), I collar grab, hold, wait for dog to notice that the behaviour has been interrupted.. I don't say anything. I don't yell or join in with the barking. When the dog stops thinking about the fence and pays attention to me - I wait for another second or two of calm attention on me and then I release to see what the dog chooses to do next (a version of "It's yer choice" game).

If the dog chooses to repeat the behaviour I don't like - I repeat the collar grab, wait, choice?

If the dog makes a bad choice after the second collar grab - they win the prize of go inside or have some crate time or go on lead - so the behaviour cannot be repeated. I don't think removing to behind the second fence is going to be enough in this case.

And you will probably need to re-train each dog separately - as they will train each other to do the fence running thing. Unless there are two of you and you both run the collar grab - choice routine. Do not release the dogs together - one should figure it out faster than the other...

[The Spotted Devil]

I am preventing this behaviour occurring, by keeping the dogs behind another fence, with no visability of the fence line they like to bark at.

So it is not occurring.

Like i said, i am managing it.

Would i like some advice on how to train it out. Sure! yes please.

Why am i asking what drives are in play? because that is what i am studying right now. So do you know?

am i not allowed to know AND train it out?

The thing is it's impossible to know what internally motivates an animal - scientists even have trouble defining what "play" actually is. I've read a few books on the subject and I'm a scientist and I train dogs. I've read pages of Internet discussions and arguments about "drive" and I think it's a waste of time if you're actually trying to solve a problem. What would I do? Manage it in so far as prevent rehearsals of the unwanted behaviour eg put up temporary fence, take dog out on leash AND train it eg teach incompatible behaviours and treat the neighbour's dog as just another distraction.

[Kavik]

This an interesting paper I came across on "drive", you might find it interesting :)

http://www.auf-den-hund-gekommen.net/-/paper3_files/drive_1.1.pdf

In your situation, I think it is irrelevant what drives are being utilised, and you are never going to know anyway.

I will still use the term "drive" in areas where there is a common understanding of what it means, even though it is pretty vague. Mostly I guess to describe whether the dog has enough interest in something to utilise it as a reward - with prey being interest in toys, mostly tugging, and food being food rewards. Though of course these can be manipulated to a degree, and you can grow them.

I have found it tricky when talking to breeders to describe the type of temperament and structure I am looking for, especially breeders of working stock dogs who do not know a lot about dog sports (and why should they lol), as we don't really speak the same language as such when talking about these things

Edited April 16, 2016 by Kavik

[Willem]

This an interesting paper I came across on "drive", you might find it interesting :)

http://www.auf-den-hund-gekommen.net/-/paper3_files/drive_1.1.pdf

In your situation, I think it is irrelevant what drives are being utilised, and you are never going to know anyway.

I will still use the term "drive" in areas where there is a common understanding of what it means, even though it is pretty vague. Mostly I guess to describe whether the dog has enough interest in something to utilise it as a reward - with prey being interest in toys, mostly tugging, and food being food rewards. Though of course these can be manipulated to a degree, and you can grow them.

I have found it tricky when talking to breeders to describe the type of temperament and structure I am looking for, especially breeders of working stock dogs who do not know a lot about dog sports (and why should they lol), as we don't really speak the same language as such when talking about these things

...great article ...I'm still digesting so...

[The Spotted Devil]

"Drive" could be substituted with the word "motivation" and be a lot more accurate. I understand what people are trying to say with "prey drive" "play drive" "in drive" etc but I don't like the terms at all - they are too open to interpretation. I prefer to observe and describe behaviour such as arousal or emotions such as fear which we have a better understanding of how to measure.

If that's the article I think it is it's a pretty good summary.

Edited April 17, 2016 by The Spotted Devil

[sporti]

very interesting article.

still digesting.

the collar grab: works a treat, when i am there. Is this supposed to be transposed to when i am not somehow? If so, ive some steps missing?

Edited April 17, 2016 by sporti

[The Spotted Devil]

very interesting article.

still digesting.

the collar grab: works a treat, when i am there. Is this supposed to be transposed to when i am not somehow? If so, ive some steps missing?

Hey sporti - collar grab is awesome! I play it with my dogs all the time - from the pup to the 9 year old. Every single time you recall, collar grab, treat. You cannot play this game enough. Make sure your dog thinks it's the BEST thing ever. Uses? It's great as an interrupter - so I ask two dogs to lie on their beds whilst the 3rd is working. If one gets up I walk quietly over and hold the collar - don't move the dog at all. Just signals the dog they've made a poor choice and give them a chance to make a good choice. Which is getting back on your bed. Then LOTS of praise but no treat until she has proved herself while I do some more work with the 3rd dog. Great also for restrained recalls or anywhere you want to build clarity and confidence. Use opposition reflex! Sometimes I will grab the collar and point my dog away from the correct weave entry or the wrong way around a jump or away from a dummy whilst giving the command - dog says "ha can't trick me!" and when they are straining in the right direction I release them, they do as asked and a party happens! And if I have to grab my dog in a hurry it's GOLD - think aggressive dog coming or some other such drama and my dogs rush right into my arms as soon as I extend my hand. Even pup throws her collar into my hand as I've built up such a strong association with it - it's a godsend as her recall isn't quite there yet but the conditioned response to the collar grab is sensational.

Edited April 17, 2016 by The Spotted Devil

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

very interesting article.

still digesting.

the collar grab: works a treat, when i am there. Is this supposed to be transposed to when i am not somehow? If so, ive some steps missing?

Collar grab - and dog's choice.

If you're preventing the dog making a choice after the collar grab and some calm behaviour - it won't stop the fence running, but when the dog calms down - you release the dog and allow it to make a choice. You might limit the choices and increase your control by having a lead on when you let go the collar, but

you let the dog make a choice.

You reward the good choices.

So the dog is making a choice without you telling it what to do - so eventually (or two grabs in the case of my dog)... dog chooses to behave how you want, you reward that, dog will learn to make that choice when you're not there.

Hence I can leave a bowl of porridge on the coffee table until it goes cold... and she will leave it alone until I get back in the room and then she will ask me if she can have it.

I've come back into the kitchen to see her drooling next to her bucket of kibble with the lid off cos I forgot. But she doesn't eat it. Collar grab + Its yer choice. (lots of youtube about these games).

[corvus]

This an interesting paper I came across on "drive", you might find it interesting :)

http://www.auf-den-hund-gekommen.net/-/paper3_files/drive_1.1.pdf

Wow, Buzz made it to Australia! :D He is notorious in some circles. We used to be friends, but I went and said something about formal dominance hierarchies in dogs and he never did get over that. I am just the worst.

I think that perhaps a functional assessment is more useful in these cases. What is the dog trying to achieve? Is it distance increasing behaviour or frustration? What is contributing to the arousal? These are questions we can answer to some extent, by observing how the dog's behaviour changes when we change the consequences, and will be useful in treating it. Get the arousal down and you're usually halfway there with this kind of thing. Prevent practice, reinforce an incompatible behaviour, make sure the dog is getting suitable outlets etc.

[sporti]

very interesting article.

still digesting.

the collar grab: works a treat, when i am there. Is this supposed to be transposed to when i am not somehow? If so, ive some steps missing?

Collar grab - and dog's choice.

If you're preventing the dog making a choice after the collar grab and some calm behaviour - it won't stop the fence running, but when the dog calms down - you release the dog and allow it to make a choice. You might limit the choices and increase your control by having a lead on when you let go the collar, but

you let the dog make a choice.

You reward the good choices.

So the dog is making a choice without you telling it what to do - so eventually (or two grabs in the case of my dog)... dog chooses to behave how you want, you reward that, dog will learn to make that choice when you're not there.

Hence I can leave a bowl of porridge on the coffee table until it goes cold... and she will leave it alone until I get back in the room and then she will ask me if she can have it.

I've come back into the kitchen to see her drooling next to her bucket of kibble with the lid off cos I forgot. But she doesn't eat it. Collar grab + Its yer choice. (lots of youtube about these games).

Thankyou for your reply. Can you explain HOW the bolded bit occurs? Dogs dont generalise behaviours well usually.

As for 9years, ive been grabbing his collar, and taking him down a notch, then offering a choice, he makes the right choice, coz we've been training together for some time now. When i am not at home, he makes the other choice, he fence runs and barks. He does not seem to generalise the right choice. So how will this help?

[Willem]

very interesting article.

still digesting.

the collar grab: works a treat, when i am there. Is this supposed to be transposed to when i am not somehow? If so, ive some steps missing?

Collar grab - and dog's choice.

If you're preventing the dog making a choice after the collar grab and some calm behaviour - it won't stop the fence running, but when the dog calms down - you release the dog and allow it to make a choice. You might limit the choices and increase your control by having a lead on when you let go the collar, but

you let the dog make a choice.

You reward the good choices.

So the dog is making a choice without you telling it what to do - so eventually (or two grabs in the case of my dog)... dog chooses to behave how you want, you reward that, dog will learn to make that choice when you're not there.

Hence I can leave a bowl of porridge on the coffee table until it goes cold... and she will leave it alone until I get back in the room and then she will ask me if she can have it.

I've come back into the kitchen to see her drooling next to her bucket of kibble with the lid off cos I forgot. But she doesn't eat it. Collar grab + Its yer choice. (lots of youtube about these games).

Thankyou for your reply. Can you explain HOW the bolded bit occurs? Dogs dont generalise behaviours well usually.

As for 9years, ive been grabbing his collar, and taking him down a notch, then offering a choice, he makes the right choice, coz we've been training together for some time now. When i am not at home, he makes the other choice, he fence runs and barks. He does not seem to generalise the right choice. So how will this help?

...that's the challenge with all these choices left to the dog :) ...when you are not there he gets rewarded by 'chasing' the passing people away so it is a 'good' choice for him...hence my suggestion to train it with decoys who will only disappear when he stops barking / chasing. In this case the reward will only be the treat or praise he gets when he stops barking / chasing, but not the disappearing of the people who pass by. I doubt whether it will work just with collar grabs and the like...

Eta:...for this scenario respectively your objective IMO it is better to adjust the trigger zone to allow the control of the dog with minimal interaction (minimal collar grab, lead pull etc.) as the final goal is that he shows the wanted behaviour when on his own...so just rewards (treats, praise) when he stops barking, but no close interaction, use the trigger zone instead for your favor and minimize the zone according to the trainings progress.

Edited April 18, 2016 by Willem

[sporti]

This an interesting paper I came across on "drive", you might find it interesting :)

http://www.auf-den-hund-gekommen.net/-/paper3_files/drive_1.1.pdf

Wow, Buzz made it to Australia! :D He is notorious in some circles. We used to be friends, but I went and said something about formal dominance hierarchies in dogs and he never did get over that. I am just the worst.

I think that perhaps a functional assessment is more useful in these cases. What is the dog trying to achieve? Is it distance increasing behaviour or frustration? What is contributing to the arousal? These are questions we can answer to some extent, by observing how the dog's behaviour changes when we change the consequences, and will be useful in treating it. Get the arousal down and you're usually halfway there with this kind of thing. Prevent practice, reinforce an incompatible behaviour, make sure the dog is getting suitable outlets etc.

The dogs have different things to achieve, the GSD is all about creating distance. Which of course he appears to do from his perspective, as the passers by - pass by.

The rottie is loving the chase game. But also escalating in how hyped up she gets, she has to be prevented from running, for health reasons, my main motivation behind preventing this behaviour reoccurring, being rehearsed. So behind the 2nd fence line works.

the dogs are not being triggered by visual sight of the offenders/new friends respectively.

The environment: Neighbour's Jack Russell Terrier, starts the dogs up along the row of properties. Mine included. The noise and intensity escalates for the GSD, whilst they are directly outside 'our' perimeter fence. Diminishing once they've passed.

I want to try collar grab/choice point/mark/reward. Not sure i should just verbal praise, and ask for more in the beginning?

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I want to try collar grab/choice point/mark/reward. Not sure i should just verbal praise, and ask for more in the beginning?

For my dog - when she's being fear? aggressive or territorial - best not to use any food reward.

The reward is the release to make choice and praise when get choice right, and get to stay free.

If I use food for rewarding in this kind of scenario - she acts bad and scary then calm and sweet - to get the treat. She performs bad and scary... even when there's nothing to be bad and scary about. Because she wants the treat and I made the mistake of giving it to her. That's called back chaining.

How does the dog figure out how to do it on their own... I'm not entirely sure. But preventing the bad behaviour when you're not home and being really "swift and deliberate" if there is any (when you are home). My dog stays locked inside when I'm out and she's staying home, so she has less opportunity to be fence running without me. But she still gets to do it when I'm home. And I have to deal with that. Mostly it's only when something new happens.

Like this morning - they were demolishing the shed over the back lane - so dog got very excited. I took her back inside (she won the prize), and then I actually took her out on lead so she could not fence run at them. And praised her for being calm about them being there. And I was calm about them being out there. So when I let her go (to make her choice) she didn't go back to the fence running.

I wasn't overly bothered about her being loud about a ute being parked in the lane - I do want to know about that but once I've said "enough", then she needs to stop.

We also have to play the choice game from time to time at the front door. The rules are - sit while I open the door and don't move until I say "go". I had been letting her blast out because it "didn't matter" but she would get over the top excited if the neighbours kids were playing out the front and she'd do full on scary. Not ok...

So now if her butt lifts off before I get the door fully open - I shut it before she can get out (she's on lead so I have control). Also if she's noisy I don't open the door until she's quiet and if she starts up again between the door and the gate... we go back in the house or round the back via the side gate. Her choice... she's noisy, she goes back home... if she's calm and quiet she gets to say hello to everyone, get pats and go for walk.

So she's very good as long as I'm consistent. Need to get it right at least 4 out of 5 times for the dog to learn. So you don't have to be perfect but you do have to try.

I think a lot of it is about building your dog's self control in the face of exciting "distractions".

Edited April 18, 2016 by Mrs Rusty Bucket