Campaign To Allow Dogs In More Public Places

[MonElite]

that's how I see it Rascal

[Willem]

the problem I see is that our cities and transport systems are just not suitable for dogs anymore - even if dogs on trains would be allowed in Sydney: who really wants to take his / her dog in a crowded train?...there are not many breeds that are 'mentally equipped' to cope with such scenarios and for most of the dogs it would be just cruel. In the suburbs there might be more space in the trains to allow this, but in the city?

Making cities including transport systems more dog friendly would require major investments - I can't see that this will happen or that there is a lobby strong enough to facilitate the diversion of $$ to those areas.

However, allowing access to NPs for dogs would be something that doesn't require additional investments and would be beneficial for many people and responsible dog owners - the current law doesn't help wrt straying dogs anyway, and for responsible owners it is not a big deal to keep the dog on the leash, so why not allowing it?

[OSoSwift]

Even having dogs on lead in National Parks disturbs the native inhabitants. The National Parks are to keep our native creatures happy and safe hence why dogs are not allowed even on lead

[Papillon Kisses]

The national park thing might have to do with native fauna and flora. I'm not necessarily talking about people not picking up after their dogs or allowing their dogs to attack wildlife. More about the scent of dogs and their urine stopping animals from living/procreating in areas frequented by dogs. It's just something I've heard.

Snap: ohsoswift replied first. ;)

Edited April 19, 2016 by Papillon Kisses

[OSoSwift]

Yes exactly Papillon Kisses

[Willem]

The national park thing might have to do with native fauna and flora. I'm not necessarily talking about people not picking up after their dogs or allowing their dogs to attack wildlife. More about the scent of dogs and their urine stopping animals from living/procreating in areas frequented by dogs. It's just something I've heard.

Snap: ohsoswift replied first. ;)

but it is hard to believe that dogs on a leash walked on a track do the same harm and damage than all the straying dogs that are out there anyway!...in a lot of the European parks it is allowed and the parks are much smaller!...in Canada it is allowed...all these parks have sensibel fauna and flora and obviously the risks associated with allowing access of dog owners with their dogs is rated not so high. Compare the ratio of NP size and population of Australia and Europe: I can't see that dog owners would represent a risk here.

[mackiemad]

Canada and Europe do not have the same amount of delicate flora and fauna as Australia and New Zealand - to make a case for dogs in nps based on that is completely disregarding Australian ecosystems and the point of the nps.

I'm in Melbourne and don't have an issue in taking my dog places. The only market I've been unable to take him to (and not convinced as to why) was Red Hill market. He's been on public transport, at demonstrations, hung out outside cafes, frolicked along beaches, wandered around markets and gone into stores with me.

[Rascalmyshadow]

the problem I see is that our cities and transport systems are just not suitable for dogs anymore - even if dogs on trains would be allowed in Sydney: who really wants to take his / her dog in a crowded train?...there are not many breeds that are 'mentally equipped' to cope with such scenarios and for most of the dogs it would be just cruel. In the suburbs there might be more space in the trains to allow this, but in the city?

Making cities including transport systems more dog friendly would require major investments - I can't see that this will happen or that there is a lobby strong enough to facilitate the diversion of $$ to those areas.

However, allowing access to NPs for dogs would be something that doesn't require additional investments and would be beneficial for many people and responsible dog owners - the current law doesn't help wrt straying dogs anyway, and for responsible owners it is not a big deal to keep the dog on the leash, so why not allowing it?

I disagree, I didn't get my licence until I was 26 so for 10years I train travelled with my dogs. I always took 1-2 with me to work and that was generally in peak hour, I travelled from Seaford to Toorak, Moorabbin and Sandringham (partial bus trip) and never had an issue, the dogs were raised from day one to be social and relaxed around the noise and people, it gave the dogs exercise and mental stimulation as well as being a great conversation starter, I chatted to many people on the trains because of my dogs especially the ones that were disabled. The ability to have them with me constantly was the reason I got up and went to work everyday.

Edited April 19, 2016 by Rascalmyshadow

[Willem]

Canada and Europe do not have the same amount of delicate flora and fauna as Australia and New Zealand - to make a case for dogs in nps based on that is completely disregarding Australian ecosystems and the point of the nps.....

I assume you don't refer to foxes, Myna birds, rats, mice, rabbits and cane toads in our NPs when you are talking abut 'delicate flora and fauna'... could you list one specie of this 'delicate fauna and flora' for which my dog - assuming that I walk her on leash on a track in a NP - would represent an increasing risk?

[Two Best Dogs!]

If dogs were actually allowed most places and those that did the wrong thing were penalised most of the issues we see now would slowly decrease and eventually people would start to become more responsible and dogs would be less problematic.

I would think that first to penalise those disobeying in the areas they are currently allowed before increasing the places dogs can go.

I think because if a dog is not yet ready to walk down a street politely or owners currently can not obey leash rules as is, they shouldn't be allowed to misbehave in more (challenging) places. I would turn it around so:

1. More consistent rules and penalise issues as they currently are /encourage training

2. Average owner and dogs would slowly get better/ issues decrease / pet ownership culture improve

3. Then allow access to more places

4. Deal with the new issues that occur with out the original issues in the way

I think jumping straight to 3 and hoping 1 and 2 follow would backfire on everyone because our pet owning population and dogs are not ready - undo some of the issues first before letting them run on out.

For national parks, I don't think dogs should be allowed at all.

Edited April 19, 2016 by Thistle the dog

[Lhok]

If dogs were actually allowed most places and those that did the wrong thing were penalised most of the issues we see now would slowly decrease and eventually people would start to become more responsible and dogs would be less problematic.

I would think that first to penalise those disobeying in the areas they are currently allowed before increasing the places dogs can go.

I think because if a dog is not yet ready to walk down a street politely or owners currently can not obey leash rules as is, they shouldn't be allowed to misbehave in more (challenging) places. I would turn it around so:

1. More consistent rules and penalise issues as they currently are /encourage training

2. Average owner and dogs would slowly get better/ issues decrease / pet ownership culture improve

3. Then allow access to more places

4. Deal with the new issues that occur with out the original issues in the way

I think jumping straight to 3 and hoping 1 and 2 follow would backfire on everyone because our pet owning population and dogs are not ready - undo some of the issues first before letting them run on out.

For national parks, I don't think dogs should be allowed at all.

All of this!

--Lhok

[MonElite]

1. More consistent rules and penalise issues as they currently are /encourage training

Please give a specific example of current issues, exclude off leash dogs in on lead areas

[griff]

liked the FB page.

[Two Best Dogs!]

1. More consistent rules and penalise issues as they currently are /encourage training

Please give a specific example of current issues, exclude off leash dogs in on lead areas

Okay, excluding the most obvious issue that needs to be better enforced/obeyed because it comes with many sub issues like harassing other dogs, people, hidden poop, dangers to health, attacking other animals, bad recall, cars etc

1. People picking up after their dogs

2. Nuscience dogs ie constant barking/flinging self all over the place on lead/jumping on passing people/harassing other dogs

3. Appropriate Flexi lead usage

4. Consistent registration and microchipping

5. Confining dogs/not letting them wander (seperate to intentionally allowed off lead in on lead but it is part and parcel of ownership)

6. Restricted breeds/dangerous dogs. Whether you agree with these or not, you should obey the law with them in the meantime for their own safety and others

7. Obedience and training - most dogs don't seem to have it (or are too excited/scared to demonstrate it) - if they can't walk down a street they're not ready for other challenging locations, let alone should be allowed access to more challenging or fragile locations

8. Peoples overall lack of awareness of their dogs. Not their fault usually (ignorance vs lazy) but an increased sense of responsibility and respect for others in regards to Fido behaviour and locations

Etc etc

Majority of these are not consistently enforced by areas or obeyed by owners. So both sides need some work before increasing the areas where the issues can happen. Education and enforcement first, consistent improvement from the community before trial running new allowances.

Jumping straight to more places without improving current overall responsibility in both enforcement and ownership will just be more areas with more and new issues :/

Edited April 20, 2016 by Thistle the dog

[MonElite]

Ill reply under each one

2. Nuscience dogs ie constant barking/flinging self all over the place on lead/jumping on passing people/harassing other dogs

Clearly the dogs isnt socialised and untrained. Why? Because most likely its not taken anywhere. Why? Because its only really allowed on the streets and if owner has no car only in its neighbourhood

3. Appropriate Flexi lead usage

Rule of 2 meter lead in public places - how is that?

4. Consistent registration and microchipping

Nothing to do with allowing dogs in more public palces

5. Confining dogs/not letting them wander (seperate to intentionally allowed off lead in on lead but it is part and parcel of ownership)

noting to do with allowing dogs in more places

6. Restricted breeds/dangerous dogs. Whether you agree with these or not, you should obey the law with them in the meantime for their own safety and others

How about lead and muzzle for all?

7. Obedience and training - most dogs don't seem to have it (or are too excited/scared to demonstrate it) - if they can't walk down a street they're not ready for other challenging locations, let alone should be allowed access to more challenging or fragile locations

unenforceable for one

Why an excited dog that pulls on lead wouldnt be allowed somewhere else?

My dogs get veyr excited when they go places and one pulls on lead. She has no issues being places,

8. Peoples overall lack of awareness of their dogs. Not their fault usually (ignorance vs lazy) but an increased sense of responsibility and respect for others in regards to Fido behaviour and locations

I belive this is because dogs arent allowed anywhere. If they were people would be come a lot more aware as well and attempt to fix the problems, right now they just stick the dog in the yard and "problem solved"

So how about this - for a dog to be allowed on public transport, lets say (or some other place that they are currently not allowed to be)

Dog must be on a leash and in some cases muzzled

Dog and owner must have attended basic training and have a "certificate" of completion - mind you while I think it would be great, I dont think its going to happen at all.. There would be to many people saying - but I can trin the dog myself, but I live to far from the club, but I have to pay, but who is the trainer that would issue a certificate blah blah blah

[Willem]

Ill reply under each one

2. Nuscience dogs ie constant barking/flinging self all over the place on lead/jumping on passing people/harassing other dogs

Clearly the dogs isnt socialised and untrained. Why? Because most likely its not taken anywhere. Why? Because its only really allowed on the streets and if owner has no car only in its neighbourhood

3. Appropriate Flexi lead usage

Rule of 2 meter lead in public places - how is that?

4. Consistent registration and microchipping

Nothing to do with allowing dogs in more public palces

5. Confining dogs/not letting them wander (seperate to intentionally allowed off lead in on lead but it is part and parcel of ownership)

noting to do with allowing dogs in more places

6. Restricted breeds/dangerous dogs. Whether you agree with these or not, you should obey the law with them in the meantime for their own safety and others

How about lead and muzzle for all?

7. Obedience and training - most dogs don't seem to have it (or are too excited/scared to demonstrate it) - if they can't walk down a street they're not ready for other challenging locations, let alone should be allowed access to more challenging or fragile locations

unenforceable for one

Why an excited dog that pulls on lead wouldnt be allowed somewhere else?

My dogs get veyr excited when they go places and one pulls on lead. She has no issues being places,

8. Peoples overall lack of awareness of their dogs. Not their fault usually (ignorance vs lazy) but an increased sense of responsibility and respect for others in regards to Fido behaviour and locations

I belive this is because dogs arent allowed anywhere. If they were people would be come a lot more aware as well and attempt to fix the problems, right now they just stick the dog in the yard and "problem solved"

So how about this - for a dog to be allowed on public transport, lets say (or some other place that they are currently not allowed to be)

Dog must be on a leash and in some cases muzzled

Dog and owner must have attended basic training and have a "certificate" of completion - mind you while I think it would be great, I dont think its going to happen at all.. There would be to many people saying - but I can trin the dog myself, but I live to far from the club, but I have to pay, but who is the trainer that would issue a certificate blah blah blah

YES!!!

[Two Best Dogs!]

I'm sorry monelite but your responses do not ease my concerns and I'm not convinced the process will work. I am still thinking it is around backwards and in your haste to have more places to access the below issues are being overlooked/hand waved away as fixing themselves.

2. If it can't behave in a quiet street it's not ready for more challenging situations

3. ? On lead let alone Flexi lead are not enforced. What point is the 2n leash rules if people are not currently abiding by them and/or they're currently not enforced?

4. Yes it is, it's a safety issue. More access is more potential for dogs to get lost and I would like a higher % to be identifiable. Especially if the dog is a disturbance in the process.

5. It's a factor of responsibility, especially for areas where people property currently back up on to areas dogs are not allowed.

6. ? Not sure what you mean. I'm listing issues where ppl are currently not obeying rules as is/the rules are not enforced. Adding more rules will just set up for more failure.

7. Awareness raising and education programs would be a good start It doesn't have to be enforceable by law but it is currently an issue. You asked for items I consider issues to be overcome and I am sharing some

I don't personally care if your dog can't walk on a lead. I care when it's disturbing other people/animals or you're not attempting to control it from doing such. You are wanting to increase them in shared spaces and that means respecting the other people using it too. Education and obedience can help with that.

8. And I'm saying you can't just open places up to inexperienced ppl and dogs and cross your fingers that it will help them become better. First target the above issues and similar and help them succeed where they currently are now. Then as those areas have a higher level of responsible pet owners - then you start trial runs with new areas to see how people go and adjust from what you learn there.

I've no problem with dogs on public transport. There are current working examples of that around the country (including where I live) - so other places can copy off that and try rolling it out. I do think muzzle and leash is a good and safe idea for that (+the rules actually being enforced. Rules being enforced consistently would go a long way to helping owners I reckon)t. Why not start out with a petition on that for your local area rather than blanket increased access? Then it can be assessed and a test, give you a better idea of the challenges specific in your area.

But opening up *everywhere* is a recipe for a backlash and I'm concerned by that. Don't get me wrong, I want to take my dog more places but I also want other owners to be as mindful as I would try to be and I don't think the overall culture is at that level yet.

Set the dogs and ppl up for success in their own backyards/current allowed places then slowly increase as the population average gets better. Same as training a dog to succeed ;) you don't just throw them in everything and cross your fingers, you test them in other areas first so they don't get burnt.

Anyway I'll let this go as I think soon we will be going around in circles. I just wanted to share my concerns and thoughts, hope it is helpful and gives you something to think about and plan around as you move forward with this.

Edited April 21, 2016 by Thistle the dog

[Rascalmyshadow]

Ill reply under each one

2. Nuscience dogs ie constant barking/flinging self all over the place on lead/jumping on passing people/harassing other dogs

Clearly the dogs isnt socialised and untrained. Why? Because most likely its not taken anywhere. Why? Because its only really allowed on the streets and if owner has no car only in its neighbourhood

3. Appropriate Flexi lead usage

Rule of 2 meter lead in public places - how is that?

4. Consistent registration and microchipping

Nothing to do with allowing dogs in more public palces

5. Confining dogs/not letting them wander (seperate to intentionally allowed off lead in on lead but it is part and parcel of ownership)

noting to do with allowing dogs in more places

6. Restricted breeds/dangerous dogs. Whether you agree with these or not, you should obey the law with them in the meantime for their own safety and others

How about lead and muzzle for all?

7. Obedience and training - most dogs don't seem to have it (or are too excited/scared to demonstrate it) - if they can't walk down a street they're not ready for other challenging locations, let alone should be allowed access to more challenging or fragile locations

unenforceable for one

Why an excited dog that pulls on lead wouldnt be allowed somewhere else?

My dogs get veyr excited when they go places and one pulls on lead. She has no issues being places,

8. Peoples overall lack of awareness of their dogs. Not their fault usually (ignorance vs lazy) but an increased sense of responsibility and respect for others in regards to Fido behaviour and locations

I belive this is because dogs arent allowed anywhere. If they were people would be come a lot more aware as well and attempt to fix the problems, right now they just stick the dog in the yard and "problem solved"

So how about this - for a dog to be allowed on public transport, lets say (or some other place that they are currently not allowed to be)

Dog must be on a leash and in some cases muzzled

Dog and owner must have attended basic training and have a "certificate" of completion - mind you while I think it would be great, I dont think its going to happen at all.. There would be to many people saying - but I can trin the dog myself, but I live to far from the club, but I have to pay, but who is the trainer that would issue a certificate blah blah blah

Yep agree, while we don't allow dogs anywhere owners have no reason/incentive to obey laws, train their dogs or do any more than the basics.

If dogs went back to being part of everyone's lives I believe people would have better trained and social dogs, one: they would be exposed regularly to different people, places, situations, two: training would be incorporated within everyday experiences, three: less dogs would be left at home in the backyard to be bored and become nuisances.

[Lhok]

Ill reply under each one

2. Nuscience dogs ie constant barking/flinging self all over the place on lead/jumping on passing people/harassing other dogs

Clearly the dogs isnt socialised and untrained. Why? Because most likely its not taken anywhere. Why? Because its only really allowed on the streets and if owner has no car only in its neighbourhood

3. Appropriate Flexi lead usage

Rule of 2 meter lead in public places - how is that?

4. Consistent registration and microchipping

Nothing to do with allowing dogs in more public palces

5. Confining dogs/not letting them wander (seperate to intentionally allowed off lead in on lead but it is part and parcel of ownership)

noting to do with allowing dogs in more places

6. Restricted breeds/dangerous dogs. Whether you agree with these or not, you should obey the law with them in the meantime for their own safety and others

How about lead and muzzle for all?

7. Obedience and training - most dogs don't seem to have it (or are too excited/scared to demonstrate it) - if they can't walk down a street they're not ready for other challenging locations, let alone should be allowed access to more challenging or fragile locations

unenforceable for one

Why an excited dog that pulls on lead wouldnt be allowed somewhere else?

My dogs get veyr excited when they go places and one pulls on lead. She has no issues being places,

8. Peoples overall lack of awareness of their dogs. Not their fault usually (ignorance vs lazy) but an increased sense of responsibility and respect for others in regards to Fido behaviour and locations

I belive this is because dogs arent allowed anywhere. If they were people would be come a lot more aware as well and attempt to fix the problems, right now they just stick the dog in the yard and "problem solved"

So how about this - for a dog to be allowed on public transport, lets say (or some other place that they are currently not allowed to be)

Dog must be on a leash and in some cases muzzled

Dog and owner must have attended basic training and have a "certificate" of completion - mind you while I think it would be great, I dont think its going to happen at all.. There would be to many people saying - but I can trin the dog myself, but I live to far from the club, but I have to pay, but who is the trainer that would issue a certificate blah blah blah

Yep agree, while we don't allow dogs anywhere owners have no reason/incentive to obey laws, train their dogs or do any more than the basics.

If dogs went back to being part of everyone's lives I believe people would have better trained and social dogs, one: they would be exposed regularly to different people, places, situations, two: training would be incorporated within everyday experiences, three: less dogs would be left at home in the backyard to be bored and become nuisances.

They are allowed places (they might not be many at the moment) but still how many threads here deal with people who know nothing about canine behaviour "He/she is friendly" and care little about laws. What makes you think by opening up everywhere to them is going to change their behaviour?

It isn't they are only going to feel more entitled.

I do notice that Monelite hasn't answered my question about multiple dogs with one handler and also around the place I live and even in at least one of the photos in the facebook link there was an under aged handler. I know laws in place state that the a dog must be with a responsible person older then 16 (I think) but often you see kids around here with dogs.

You guys haven't put up any framework for what you want except that dogs should be allowed everywhere. If you put up what rule people should follow it might ease some concerns because where I am sitting the Aussie "She'll be right" attitude with this is a recipe for disaster.

You do understand what you are asking for is something that even service dogs have difficulty with on some days and they are dogs that do have great socialising and training.

--Lhok

[Rascalmyshadow]

I guess I must be one of the lucky few and are not exposed to so many hopeless people when i go out walking. Where I live it's not very often I come across owners doing the wrong thing except perhaps having dogs off lead where they shouldn't but they are usually well trained and under control so it's never really an issue.