Unsuccessful Pregnancy Twice

[Wicked Wish]

Unsuccesful Pregnancy Twice

I own a bull breed, and purchased her as a foundation bitch. She has been cleared of diseases, and I believe she is of breeding quality. She has not had a litter before, and first unsuccessful mating she was around 2.5yrs old. Bitch is healthy & of good weight. She has a varied diet & has a sound temperment.

First Mating:

Stud dog is proven, and flew to us due to no space at his location at the time. Bitch went through all usual stages, but they could not get a tie. She would drop, roll & yelp everytime he "got in". On day 14, prog test showed 70 nmols. I asked about AI considering we couldnt get a natural tie, and they said it would be a waste of time & money (greencross) as you need to AI around 20 nmols? We thought we may have gotten 1-2 slip matings, but upon ultrasound at 4 weeks she was "barron". I took her to a local vet a few days later as I suspected a stricture, but was told she was "normal", and probably didnt tie because she was a maiden.

Second Mating:

Next heat cycle, we decided to try again, this time flying the bitch to the stud. A couple of days before she came into season, she was vaccinated, heartwormed and had a physical done. Around 2 days later when she came in season, we decided to fly her to the stud straight away so the stud owner could start prog testing with their vet. We booked a morning flight with JP. The plane landed, and once found by the JP driver, she was in severe "heat stress", JP did a few things in which I believe was wrong, including putting her on a 1 hour earlier flight. We were told origianlly that no one even knew she was there waiting to be collected. Cut a long story short, she ended up being rushed (by stud owner) to a vet clinic, and had to be on an intravenous drip overnight. We have a report from the vet describing the state she was in. That vet, and the stud owners local vet both checked her out and said she would still be able to safely go ahead with the planned mating. She had approx 2 weeks to recover before she was mated. On day 10 she was at 3 nmols, on day 13 she was at 10 nmols, and on day 15 she was at 49 nmols. On day 14, AI was tried, and the semen just came flooding back out of the bitch. On day 15 she went in and had another prog test (which came back the next day saying 49 nmols) and they gave her a vaginal exam. They explained to the stud owner that it seemed she had a "thick & fibrous" hymen, and almost like it was a "step up" to get in there, so maybe that was why the natural mating was proving hard. Vet again said normal, and no problem to try AI. Day 16, they got the AI tube right up & in this time, and got a sucessful AI done with 3.5ml semen. Four days later, we made a VERY long drive to pick her up by road as we were not ever going to put her on a plane again after the horrible ordeal we went through previously. Fast forward to "4 weeks", go in for an ultrasound and again she has not taken.

Now you have some information on what happened, maybe you would care to share your opinions or experiences. According to prog tests she ovulated, so she is fertile. Vet said AI was perfect timing for fertilisation. Did she not conceive at all? Did she conceive and absorb the pups due to stress?

Right now, I am ready to give up. Is mother nature trying to say she is not a good brood bitch, because I feel it should not be so hard? Would she have fallen pregnant if her body had not gone through such high stress & almost possible death? Should I try one last time using Artificial Insemination, Transcervical Artificial insemination or Surgical Insemination? Or should the dog be a pet, no breeding? Should her breeder be contacted?

[Steve]

Unsuccesful Pregnancy Twice

I own a bull breed, and purchased her as a foundation bitch. She has been cleared of diseases, and I believe she is of breeding quality. She has not had a litter before, and first unsuccessful mating she was around 2.5yrs old. Bitch is healthy & of good weight. She has a varied diet & has a sound temperment.

First Mating:

Stud dog is proven, and flew to us due to no space at his location at the time. Bitch went through all usual stages, but they could not get a tie. She would drop, roll & yelp everytime he "got in". On day 14, prog test showed 70 nmols. I asked about AI considering we couldnt get a natural tie, and they said it would be a waste of time & money (greencross) as you need to AI around 20 nmols? We thought we may have gotten 1-2 slip matings, but upon ultrasound at 4 weeks she was "barron". I took her to a local vet a few days later as I suspected a stricture, but was told she was "normal", and probably didnt tie because she was a maiden.

Second Mating:

Next heat cycle, we decided to try again, this time flying the bitch to the stud. A couple of days before she came into season, she was vaccinated, heartwormed and had a physical done. Around 2 days later when she came in season, we decided to fly her to the stud straight away so the stud owner could start prog testing with their vet. We booked a morning flight with JP. The plane landed, and once found by the JP driver, she was in severe "heat stress", JP did a few things in which I believe was wrong, including putting her on a 1 hour earlier flight. We were told origianlly that no one even knew she was there waiting to be collected. Cut a long story short, she ended up being rushed (by stud owner) to a vet clinic, and had to be on an intravenous drip overnight. We have a report from the vet describing the state she was in. That vet, and the stud owners local vet both checked her out and said she would still be able to safely go ahead with the planned mating. She had approx 2 weeks to recover before she was mated. On day 10 she was at 3 nmols, on day 13 she was at 10 nmols, and on day 15 she was at 49 nmols. On day 14, AI was tried, and the semen just came flooding back out of the bitch. On day 15 she went in and had another prog test (which came back the next day saying 49 nmols) and they gave her a vaginal exam. They explained to the stud owner that it seemed she had a "thick & fibrous" hymen, and almost like it was a "step up" to get in there, so maybe that was why the natural mating was proving hard. Vet again said normal, and no problem to try AI. Day 16, they got the AI tube right up & in this time, and got a sucessful AI done with 3.5ml semen. Four days later, we made a VERY long drive to pick her up by road as we were not ever going to put her on a plane again after the horrible ordeal we went through previously. Fast forward to "4 weeks", go in for an ultrasound and again she has not taken.

Now you have some information on what happened, maybe you would care to share your opinions or experiences. According to prog tests she ovulated, so she is fertile. Vet said AI was perfect timing for fertilisation. Did she not conceive at all? Did she conceive and absorb the pups due to stress?

Right now, I am ready to give up. Is mother nature trying to say she is not a good brood bitch, because I feel it should not be so hard? Would she have fallen pregnant if her body had not gone through such high stress & almost possible death? Should I try one last time using Artificial Insemination, Transcervical Artificial insemination or Surgical Insemination? Or should the dog be a pet, no breeding? Should her breeder be contacted?

I do believe that sometimes its the bitch telling you something but all good experiments give three examples.

Couple of questions - did they do any swabs for bacteria count pre mating ? Have you spoken with her breeder to see if she has any advice for you to proceed with?

Many years ago I had a beautiful bitch and 2 proven stud dogs. I couldn't get a tie with either of them as she behaved much like you describe your bitch's behaviour. My vet at the time was one of the few who had extra qualifications specialising in canine breeding so I rang her and told her what was going on and believe it or not she told me to give her a 15 mil shot of whisky .Well if ever you had any doubt about how alcohol can get you into trouble - you should have seen the difference! She stood and did everything she had to do, we got a mating from the boy I had preferred and we got a litter of 12 puppies . When she had the puppies she was a rat - she wouldn't stay in the whelping box to feed them - she kept wanting to jump up and out to tell me what funny things were in her bed .I was wrestling with her to get her to stay still long enough to get a puppy on to feed - so again I rang the vet and she told me to give her another shot . 30 mins later she was relaxed and letting the puppies feed, cleaning them etc. and all was well. next time she was heat - same problem - same solution .I didnt need to do anything when she had the puppies the second time but without the grog she wasnt having a bar of the mating.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Steve

[JRG]

My advice? if you really want pups from this bitch and no other, and don't mind spending a bit of money to get a result, find a good, experienced fertility/reproduction specialist and take her now so that a work up can be done before she cycles again.

I have done this and on the first cycle (after treatment), she had one

Mated again the next cycle and she had four :)

Edited April 15, 2016 by JRG

[JRG]

The million dollar baby!

[Dogsfevr]

Find a good repo vet and see what they say if you truly want a litter from her.

Get semen sent to you so you have it ready and look at the options in advance .

I also would never ever vaccinate before a mating ,

If the breeder I f your girl is very knowledgable then yes contact them and ask there advice

[Mjosa]

Are you a registered breeder or a member of DogsQld?

I have a bull breed and there seem to be so many of my breed being bred, there are 35 litters here on Dogz, this was unheard of a few years back.

[Rebanne]

Find a good repo vet and take your girl there. I would never vaccinate a bitch right before mating and would never ever use the heartworm injections

[Wicked Wish]

I do believe that sometimes its the bitch telling you something but all good experiments give three examples.

Couple of questions - did they do any swabs for bacteria count pre mating ? Have you spoken with her breeder to see if she has any advice for you to proceed with?

Many years ago I had a beautiful bitch and 2 proven stud dogs. I couldn't get a tie with either of them as she behaved much like you describe your bitch's behaviour. My vet at the time was one of the few who had extra qualifications specialising in canine breeding so I rang her and told her what was going on and believe it or not she told me to give her a 15 mil shot of whisky .Well if ever you had any doubt about how alcohol can get you into trouble - you should have seen the difference! She stood and did everything she had to do, we got a mating from the boy I had preferred and we got a litter of 12 puppies . When she had the puppies she was a rat - she wouldn't stay in the whelping box to feed them - she kept wanting to jump up and out to tell me what funny things were in her bed .I was wrestling with her to get her to stay still long enough to get a puppy on to feed - so again I rang the vet and she told me to give her another shot . 30 mins later she was relaxed and letting the puppies feed, cleaning them etc. and all was well. next time she was heat - same problem - same solution .I didnt need to do anything when she had the puppies the second time but without the grog she wasnt having a bar of the mating.

Im not 100% sure if they did swabs for bacteria, but they did do a blood test and all came back normal. Also spoke to her breeder who mentioned bad timing or possible cysts on ovaries. She is only 3 years old though? That's a great story, I don't think my girl is anxious about the mating though, I think the stud can't get in there properly?

My advice? if you really want pups from this bitch and no other, and don't mind spending a bit of money to get a result, find a good, experienced fertility/reproduction specialist and take her now so that a work up can be done before she cycles again.

I have done this and on the first cycle (after treatment), she had one

Mated again the next cycle and she had four :)

We have already spent quite a bit of money, so we dont mind that I guess. I would really love a litter from this particular breeding. I did a lot of research and searching for the bloodline & "type" that I was after. We were almost ready to give up when we got the sad news, but thought maybe 3rd time lucky next time and a simple mistake was made this time? I also thought about taking her to a local repro vet and doing a third mating at home so as not to have her travelling or stressing while away from us. Thankyou for the encouragement, I will work on doing this asap.

The million dollar baby!

Did you have a million dollar baby? ^_^ If im lucky enough to get a litter I might use the same "line" hahah.

Find a good repo vet and see what they say if you truly want a litter from her.

Get semen sent to you so you have it ready and look at the options in advance .

I also would never ever vaccinate before a mating ,

If the breeder I f your girl is very knowledgable then yes contact them and ask there advice

I had spoken to the vet about wanting to breed this season (just passed) and she said it was fine to vaccinate and heartworm. So I guess I took her word for it, but maybe should have known better... that many things could affect her ability to conceive. I have since contacted her breeder with only a few answers. She said no fertility problems in her lines.

Are you a registered breeder or a member of DogsQld?

I have a bull breed and there seem to be so many of my breed being bred, there are 35 litters here on Dogz, this was unheard of a few years back.

Yes I am a registered breeder and financial member of dogsQLD :)

Find a good repo vet and take your girl there. I would never vaccinate a bitch right before mating and would never ever use the heartworm injections

I feel frustrated now thinking the vac & HW needles could have affected it all. I also think she was a little stressed being away from us and around a strange family with strange dogs she hasnt met before. Feeling like if we try again we will see a great local reproduction vet, get a plan in place and prevent any extra stress to her!

Has anyone done fresh AI? Tested afternoon, results back the next morning ( 49 n/mols ) and mated around 11am with fresh AI.

Spoke to the vet that did her ultrasound, she said her uterus was normal size, no pregnancy no heat cycle. She could not see and "blobs" or even fluid inside that would make her think she had conceived at all & reabsorbed. So I think she just missed entirely Vet also said maybe see a repro vet and ask about fresh or frozen/chilled AI, as surgical implant may be expensive if she cant physically carry a litter? She mentioned it would be worth another shot, and getting the AI done earlier when the prog test is in the teens, not the forty's.

[Steve]

Based on what you have said I think its bad timing.

Edited April 17, 2016 by Steve

[Dogsfevr]

Based on what you have said I think its bad timing.

Tend to agree,i think the first mating you can't even say its a failed attempt because there was no decent tie just alot of stuffing about ,this is when you need a good stud master to help .

The second mating i think just to many factors to say yes or no .

Is the vet you use a vet frequented by breeders or just a vet ??

I can tell you now i wouldn't rely solely on prog testing ,we have had cases where the vet has said missed & a male we have here has said otherwise & often a few days after .Our boy has never been used at stud but has never missed telling us when a girl should be mated

[leopuppy04]

I may be in a similar boat to you. Missed the first mating for a similar reason and poor timing, now waiting for season 2 and attempting again. Not sure what I will do yet if she doesn't take.

I think the 2nd mating for you there are a variety of factors that could have impacted including the medications and the stress of the travel - though like you were recommended, I think it was worth a 'shot' under medical advice.

My plan with my 2nd mating when it happens is similar to yours - The bitch is one I bred on terms so she will come back to live with me when her season starts and the boy is my own. The mother of the bitch is due in season shortly so I will be collecting the boy and doing a semen test just to make sure - though expect him to pass that with flying colours.

On first Proj I'm going to get the bitch checked again for strictures etc and ensure a natural is ok. Have back up for an AI if required. I will be checking her Prog levels daily as she shot up really quickly, hence the 'missed' mating the first time. Upon further research I found that I should have given the AI's a go anyway as the speed she shot up we still would have got puppies even though her prog levels were high. So this time, we will still AI if she is around the 65-70nmol.

Good luck! I personally would try a 3rd time and then review after that.