Re Training

[Willem]

I sympathise with you and being an old dog rescuer here are my tried and true;I'd take him for some gentle supportive therapy (usually includes some acupuncture) with proven practitioner. Works wonders for my 3 legged yorkie. :) After the first session he actually seemed to look forward to it and that's not like him at all. LOL I did have x-rays to take with me which did help too but I think the therapy would have been the same, he was just able to clearly point out what was going on with his vertebrae. What area are you in?Food; dry food only earlier in the day. Dry = thirsty = more night time pee. See if you can bump his meals earlier and take him out before bed, make a fuss and reward him if he does poo or pee. Or a tiny little walk can get things moving. Because it's more fun to poo in the great outdoors. :laugh: See if you can wean him over to BARF or give him meaty low fat bones. Bone content tends to dry out the poo a bit and make it firmer and leaves less mess. Crate or probably better would be a puppy pen in your room seeing as how it's easier for you to lean over to pick him up and clean. Use some cheap pee pads. Check Vebo Pets for the best prices on pens/crates. $2 shops for pee pads.We also have all our dogs on Joint Performance Canine Formula. Great stuff! It's improved my eldest boy's hind legs and last checkup he had great movement.Cartrophen shots every 6 to 12 months. And for pain, ask about a non-steroidal anti inflammatory like Metacam. Moving him away from you when you are his whole life especially in old age is hugely distressing for a senior.Long post, sorry. Hope something helps.Edited to make sense.

A lovely post. Could not agree more.

is he on painkillers (a pinched nerv is normally pretty painful) and could the drugs disturb his metabolism thus making it harder for him to control defecation?...if so a crate wouldn't help much.if there is a chance for improvement (depending on his overall heath condition) I would try to minimise any additional stress - conversely, if it is not likely that he will ever be able to walk the stairs again I would start keeping him downstairs ASAP. Wrt barking: if you respond to it you will reinforce him to bark every time he felt left behind. Best would be just to ignore it - which might be a problem with neighbours?...if the distance to the neighbours is far enough: headphones might get you through the first days / weeks.

how cruel and distressing to the dog

Yep - when we went through *kind of* similar with our last senior - we moved her INTO our bed so we could feel her fussing and take down for the loo. We went to the effort of quickly teaching our "new senior" (adopted at 10 years) the "go do wees" command to help with night time toileting. To the original poster - It can be done. It can be managed. I think if you guys are sharing sleeping downstairs to help your pup out - you're unlikely to leave him to 'cry it out' but in case the thought does cross your mind - please dont. Our seniors, especially, deserve a bit of fuss.

there will be always people who feel better if they can force their pets into dependencies ...and there will be always people who prefer leaving their animals some dignity...

Eta: ...spelling...

Edited April 13, 2016 by Willem

[_PL_]

I sympathise with you and being an old dog rescuer here are my tried and true;I'd take him for some gentle supportive therapy (usually includes some acupuncture) with proven practitioner. Works wonders for my 3 legged yorkie. :) After the first session he actually seemed to look forward to it and that's not like him at all. LOL I did have x-rays to take with me which did help too but I think the therapy would have been the same, he was just able to clearly point out what was going on with his vertebrae. What area are you in?Food; dry food only earlier in the day. Dry = thirsty = more night time pee. See if you can bump his meals earlier and take him out before bed, make a fuss and reward him if he does poo or pee. Or a tiny little walk can get things moving. Because it's more fun to poo in the great outdoors. :laugh: See if you can wean him over to BARF or give him meaty low fat bones. Bone content tends to dry out the poo a bit and make it firmer and leaves less mess. Crate or probably better would be a puppy pen in your room seeing as how it's easier for you to lean over to pick him up and clean. Use some cheap pee pads. Check Vebo Pets for the best prices on pens/crates. $2 shops for pee pads.We also have all our dogs on Joint Performance Canine Formula. Great stuff! It's improved my eldest boy's hind legs and last checkup he had great movement.Cartrophen shots every 6 to 12 months. And for pain, ask about a non-steroidal anti inflammatory like Metacam. Moving him away from you when you are his whole life especially in old age is hugely distressing for a senior.Long post, sorry. Hope something helps.Edited to make sense.

A lovely post. Could not agree more.

is he on painkillers (a pinched nerv is normally pretty painful) and could the drugs disturb his metabolism thus making it harder for him to control defecation?...if so a crate wouldn't help much.if there is a chance for improvement (depending on his overall heath condition) I would try to minimise any additional stress - conversely, if it is not likely that he will ever be able to walk the stairs again I would start keeping him downstairs ASAP. Wrt barking: if you respond to it you will reinforce him to bark every time he felt left behind. Best would be just to ignore it - which might be a problem with neighbours?...if the distance to the neighbours is far enough: headphones might get you through the first days / weeks.

how cruel and distressing to the dog

Yep - when we went through *kind of* similar with our last senior - we moved her INTO our bed so we could feel her fussing and take down for the loo. We went to the effort of quickly teaching our "new senior" (adopted at 10 years) the "go do wees" command to help with night time toileting. To the original poster - It can be done. It can be managed. I think if you guys are sharing sleeping downstairs to help your pup out - you're unlikely to leave him to 'cry it out' but in case the thought does cross your mind - please dont. Our seniors, especially, deserve a bit of fuss.

there will be always people who feel better if they can force their pets into dependencies ...and they will always people who prefer leaving their animals some dignity...

Jesus christ you really are offensive and thoughtless.

[Willem]

I sympathise with you and being an old dog rescuer here are my tried and true;I'd take him for some gentle supportive therapy (usually includes some acupuncture) with proven practitioner. Works wonders for my 3 legged yorkie. :) After the first session he actually seemed to look forward to it and that's not like him at all. LOL I did have x-rays to take with me which did help too but I think the therapy would have been the same, he was just able to clearly point out what was going on with his vertebrae. What area are you in?Food; dry food only earlier in the day. Dry = thirsty = more night time pee. See if you can bump his meals earlier and take him out before bed, make a fuss and reward him if he does poo or pee. Or a tiny little walk can get things moving. Because it's more fun to poo in the great outdoors. :laugh: See if you can wean him over to BARF or give him meaty low fat bones. Bone content tends to dry out the poo a bit and make it firmer and leaves less mess. Crate or probably better would be a puppy pen in your room seeing as how it's easier for you to lean over to pick him up and clean. Use some cheap pee pads. Check Vebo Pets for the best prices on pens/crates. $2 shops for pee pads.We also have all our dogs on Joint Performance Canine Formula. Great stuff! It's improved my eldest boy's hind legs and last checkup he had great movement.Cartrophen shots every 6 to 12 months. And for pain, ask about a non-steroidal anti inflammatory like Metacam. Moving him away from you when you are his whole life especially in old age is hugely distressing for a senior.Long post, sorry. Hope something helps.Edited to make sense.

A lovely post. Could not agree more.

is he on painkillers (a pinched nerv is normally pretty painful) and could the drugs disturb his metabolism thus making it harder for him to control defecation?...if so a crate wouldn't help much.if there is a chance for improvement (depending on his overall heath condition) I would try to minimise any additional stress - conversely, if it is not likely that he will ever be able to walk the stairs again I would start keeping him downstairs ASAP. Wrt barking: if you respond to it you will reinforce him to bark every time he felt left behind. Best would be just to ignore it - which might be a problem with neighbours?...if the distance to the neighbours is far enough: headphones might get you through the first days / weeks.

how cruel and distressing to the dog

Yep - when we went through *kind of* similar with our last senior - we moved her INTO our bed so we could feel her fussing and take down for the loo. We went to the effort of quickly teaching our "new senior" (adopted at 10 years) the "go do wees" command to help with night time toileting. To the original poster - It can be done. It can be managed. I think if you guys are sharing sleeping downstairs to help your pup out - you're unlikely to leave him to 'cry it out' but in case the thought does cross your mind - please dont. Our seniors, especially, deserve a bit of fuss.

there will be always people who feel better if they can force their pets into dependencies ...and they will always people who prefer leaving their animals some dignity...

Jesus christ you really are offensive and thoughtless.

what I wrote is not offensive, but if you feel offended it might be worthwhile to contemplate why you feel so.... Conversely saying that I'm thoughtless is indeed offensive!

[_PL_]

What I was going to say is a lot harsher than what you said but would probably get me banned, so I'll just say "ditto".

Same, but we've got a perfect example here that it takes a lot these days to get a warning.

[_PL_]

Ditto :laugh:

I'm really sick to death of threads being completely derailed lately. And now the poor poster who started the discussion is going to come back to a total mess.

[Rebanne]

there will be always people who feel better if they can force their pets into dependencies ...and there will be always people who prefer leaving their animals some dignity...

and some people are just plain idiots

[Scottsmum]

I sympathise with you and being an old dog rescuer here are my tried and true;I'd take him for some gentle supportive therapy (usually includes some acupuncture) with proven practitioner. Works wonders for my 3 legged yorkie. :) After the first session he actually seemed to look forward to it and that's not like him at all. LOL I did have x-rays to take with me which did help too but I think the therapy would have been the same, he was just able to clearly point out what was going on with his vertebrae. What area are you in?Food; dry food only earlier in the day. Dry = thirsty = more night time pee. See if you can bump his meals earlier and take him out before bed, make a fuss and reward him if he does poo or pee. Or a tiny little walk can get things moving. Because it's more fun to poo in the great outdoors. :laugh: See if you can wean him over to BARF or give him meaty low fat bones. Bone content tends to dry out the poo a bit and make it firmer and leaves less mess. Crate or probably better would be a puppy pen in your room seeing as how it's easier for you to lean over to pick him up and clean. Use some cheap pee pads. Check Vebo Pets for the best prices on pens/crates. $2 shops for pee pads.We also have all our dogs on Joint Performance Canine Formula. Great stuff! It's improved my eldest boy's hind legs and last checkup he had great movement.Cartrophen shots every 6 to 12 months. And for pain, ask about a non-steroidal anti inflammatory like Metacam. Moving him away from you when you are his whole life especially in old age is hugely distressing for a senior.Long post, sorry. Hope something helps.Edited to make sense.

A lovely post. Could not agree more.

is he on painkillers (a pinched nerv is normally pretty painful) and could the drugs disturb his metabolism thus making it harder for him to control defecation?...if so a crate wouldn't help much.if there is a chance for improvement (depending on his overall heath condition) I would try to minimise any additional stress - conversely, if it is not likely that he will ever be able to walk the stairs again I would start keeping him downstairs ASAP. Wrt barking: if you respond to it you will reinforce him to bark every time he felt left behind. Best would be just to ignore it - which might be a problem with neighbours?...if the distance to the neighbours is far enough: headphones might get you through the first days / weeks.

how cruel and distressing to the dog

Yep - when we went through *kind of* similar with our last senior - we moved her INTO our bed so we could feel her fussing and take down for the loo. We went to the effort of quickly teaching our "new senior" (adopted at 10 years) the "go do wees" command to help with night time toileting. To the original poster - It can be done. It can be managed. I think if you guys are sharing sleeping downstairs to help your pup out - you're unlikely to leave him to 'cry it out' but in case the thought does cross your mind - please dont. Our seniors, especially, deserve a bit of fuss.

there will be always people who feel better if they can force their pets into dependencies ...and there will be always people who prefer leaving their animals some dignity...

Eta: ...spelling...

To each their own. It was that, have her fall down the stairs or live out her life crying in a cold laundry at nights. Trust me, Foxies wrapped in doonas have no concept of dignity. They're the most undignified animals I've ever seen when a human bed is involved.

Powerlegs has supplied some fantastic sounding information.

To the original poster - I have lived with a senior terrier who was unable to get up and down the stairs - You're welcome to message if me you'd like to chat. Good luck with your pup. I think the senior years are wonderful. Challenging but really wonderful. So good we signed up to do it again by adopting a senior.

Otherwise, I'll leave it at that for this thread.

[Willem]

Hoping some one will have some suggestions

Our 11 year old JRT male has always slept on his own bed in our room upstairs.

Over the last few months his back legs have started to fail, Vet said it was a pinched nerve in his back which is making it difficult for him to control his back legs.

We take him out to toilet last thing at night but recently he has not been able to wake us up in time to take him out to the toilet during the night and has been defecating on the carpet.

After 3 nights of this we decided he couldn't sleep upstairs anymore, moved his bed downstairs and of course now he barks because he is by himself.

For the past 6 nights my husband and I have taken turns in sleeping on the lounge downstairs with him but this is not going to work long term. We have noticed while sleeping downstairs that he does take himself out to the toilet and not had any accidents inside.

Any suggestions to make the transition to him sleeping downstairs by himself would be most welcome.

well, as you can see we made some mess - a typical case of classical conditioning where some people respond pretty reactive to a certain stimuli (= my name and avatar) without taking much notice of the content of the particular posts :) .

back to your first post: your dog might be able to live for another 5 years, even if he won't be able to walk the stairs anymore...in this case the inconvenient and stressful transition teaching him to sleep downstairs seems to be (IMHO) a little price to pay for the option of facilitating his access to the outside world on his own terms. It will cause stress for your dog, but how much - long-term - stress will alternative options cause?...at the end it is of course your decision which everyone should respect. However, if you think it is the best for your dog to live downstairs: be aware that every response (if not aversive) to his barking will reinforce his behaviour / barking, hence it is best to ignore it.

[karen15]

Original poster, are you sure it's a pinched nerve? My old staffy had a neurological problem with his back legs that meant he couldn't control them. Probably came on at a similar age to your guy.

Easy to test. Vet placed his paw with the top side of his toes on the table. Initially he put it pads down fairly quickly but as he aged he stopped fixing it all together. What it tests is something called the righting reflex. Any delay in returning to pads down indicates an issue with the righting reflex and my dim memory says that is unfixable and a progressive deterioration occurs. It's neurological and they get extremely wobbly and struggle with uncarpeted floors.

I bought a carpeted house with no stairs specifically because he would have been extremely distressed not to sleep next to me, and he physically couldn't do stairs.

I do not believe providing an alternate toileting place is forcing a pet into a dependency. It is recognising that their abilities have decreased but still allowing them to do the right thing by toileting in a designated spot. My old guy hated having accidents inside and generally didn't. But in emergencies it was soothing for him to know it was ok to use a certain spot.

Depending on the level of pain and discomfort there is a lot that can be done as they age. In the early days I found krill oil had a good impact. Our pain management was a stepped approach.

- general anti inflammatory stuff like krill oil

- metacam as needed - initially spasmodic a couple of days at a time but twice daily by the end

- monthly cartrophen - he had bad arthritis and his spine was fusing

- tramadol - again used rarely initially but frequently at the end

- regular physio for his last few years

He was a happy wobbly dog when I had to put him to sleep due to an aggressive subcutaneous mast cell tumour. It took two months to kill him

[BlaznHotAussies]

well, as you can see we made some mess - a typical case of classical conditioning where some people respond pretty reactive to a certain stimuli (= my name and avatar) without taking much notice of the content of the particular posts :) .

.

No it's nothing to do with your avatar it's to do with what you post.

[Mumsie]

Thank you all so much for your helpful information, some of suggestions confirmed what I was thinking - we have changed his feed time to earlier in the day, take him for a little walk outside of our house to keep his interest in the big world outside, toilet before bed - trained to toilet from a young age thankfully, more aware of his night time noises in case he needs to toilet in the early hours of the morning. He is already on pain and joint medication, still loves to have a tussle with soft toys, wags he tail joyfully when my husband comes home and can still hear the pantry opening and comes running in case I might just give him a treat. Decided he can continue sleeping in our room for a while yet. thanks again for the support

[Scottsmum]

Thank you all so much for your helpful information, some of suggestions confirmed what I was thinking - we have changed his feed time to earlier in the day, take him for a little walk outside of our house to keep his interest in the big world outside, toilet before bed - trained to toilet from a young age thankfully, more aware of his night time noises in case he needs to toilet in the early hours of the morning. He is already on pain and joint medication, still loves to have a tussle with soft toys, wags he tail joyfully when my husband comes home and can still hear the pantry opening and comes running in case I might just give him a treat. Decided he can continue sleeping in our room for a while yet. thanks again for the support

Awesome update :thumbsup:

I have a soft spot for old terriers. Would love to see a pic ;)

[Papillon Kisses]

I'm so happy to hear the good news Mumsie!

And I second the request for a picture. :D

[Mumsie]

I have a gorgeous photo but can't seem to add to the page

It is a jpeg file on my desk top if anyone can suggest a solution

Edited April 19, 2016 by Mumsie

[Scottsmum]

depends on its size - if its under 300k you can use the 'use full editor' option and attach it.

[Jumabaar]

Some exercise therapy to assist with the physical aspects of this problem may also be worth looking into. I have had many success stories with doing strength work as well as putting in other measures to help in these situations. There is also looking outside the square for longer term solutions as well. I am happy to assist if you are looking for more information.

The crying is a symptom of feeling anxious. Feelings and emotions are not something that you can reward so responding when he barks isn't reinforcing the behaviour so if it does progress to changing the set up give him as much love and support as he needs to feel comfortable. Then the underlying motivation to bark will not be there and everyone will be sleeping soundly.

[Willem]

Some exercise therapy to assist with the physical aspects of this problem may also be worth looking into. I have had many success stories with doing strength work as well as putting in other measures to help in these situations. There is also looking outside the square for longer term solutions as well. I am happy to assist if you are looking for more information.

The crying is a symptom of feeling anxious. Feelings and emotions are not something that you can reward so responding when he barks isn't reinforcing the behaviour so if it does progress to changing the set up give him as much love and support as he needs to feel comfortable. Then the underlying motivation to bark will not be there and everyone will be sleeping soundly.

...??? ... barking is a behaviour and of course it will be reinforced by rewarding it with the right response. Similar like a dog that jumps on you seeking attention. If your response is giving him the attention he is seeking, the behaviour (jumping) is rewarded and he will keep on doing it. Of course there are always motivations involved that drives a dog to those behaviours, but it is for obvious reasons not a good thing to do if dog owners always show the 'wanted behaviour' the dog is asking for. Showing affection for a dog includes also to do the things which might cause short-term stress for the dog, but pay off in a long-term.

[stellnme]

Sometimes, Willem, when you are dealing with a sick or anxious, deaf, blind or traumatised senior dog, the text book training goes out the window and you provide compassion, care and whatever else it takes for that old dog to enjoy the last weeks, months or years of their life. If you have ever seen a dog come out of a shelter or puppy farm in the worst possible way, you would know that at that stage dignity doesn't exist. Survival does.

[Willem]

Sometimes, Willem, when you are dealing with a sick or anxious, deaf, blind or traumatised senior dog, the text book training goes out the window and you provide compassion, care and whatever else it takes for that old dog to enjoy the last weeks, months or years of their life. If you have ever seen a dog come out of a shelter or puppy farm in the worst possible way, you would know that at that stage dignity doesn't exist. Survival does.

first: when you read my first post (#10) in this thread you will recognize that I'm actually carefully evaluating (all based on the information provided by the OP) whether it is worthwhile to a) apply additional stress to the dog for a long-term benefit, or b) whether comforting the dog (= avoiding any stress) for increasing his chances of healing would be the better option. The OP never said that the dog (11 years old) is dying - the health issue stated was a pinched nerv, which is usually not deadly, but could require to apply some adjustments to the environment of the dog to address his limited agility.

second: a statement like '...Feelings and emotions are not something that you can reward so responding when he barks isn't reinforcing the behaviour...' is in many aspects at least misleading - this is a public forum and this thread gets read not only by the OP and the people who respond (well, I admit that it seems that even some of the latter ones don't spend much time on carefully reading), hence why not pointing it out?...while this is a public dog forum, sometimes I get the impression it is more about 'comforting' and 'pleasing' the dog owners instead of providing some knowledge for people really interested in dogs.

[Jumabaar]

Some exercise therapy to assist with the physical aspects of this problem may also be worth looking into. I have had many success stories with doing strength work as well as putting in other measures to help in these situations. There is also looking outside the square for longer term solutions as well. I am happy to assist if you are looking for more information.

The crying is a symptom of feeling anxious. Feelings and emotions are not something that you can reward so responding when he barks isn't reinforcing the behaviour so if it does progress to changing the set up give him as much love and support as he needs to feel comfortable. Then the underlying motivation to bark will not be there and everyone will be sleeping soundly.

...??? ... barking is a behaviour and of course it will be reinforced by rewarding it with the right response. Similar like a dog that jumps on you seeking attention. If your response is giving him the attention he is seeking, the behaviour (jumping) is rewarded and he will keep on doing it. Of course there are always motivations involved that drives a dog to those behaviours, but it is for obvious reasons not a good thing to do if dog owners always show the 'wanted behaviour' the dog is asking for. Showing affection for a dog includes also to do the things which might cause short-term stress for the dog, but pay off in a long-term.

I am pretty confident in the research backing up my statement. I am also more than happy to have any member of the general public read that statement and hopefully try and look at the WHY the dog is barking rather than just trying to make it stop. Anxiety and stress in an elderly dog isn't something that I believe is ok at all when there are other options. And one of these options is to slowly work to make the dog comfortable and safe and avoid the barking all together. If the barking starts you have gone too far and you should go and comfort said dog to ensure that they do not learn that the situation is scary.

Your method on the other hand teaches the dog to give up and is called learned helplessness which I believe is cruel and once again unnecessary. I don't allow young dogs to bark due to stress and anxiety either. Instead I empower them and end up with confident dogs that don't bark (or jump on their owner).

This is the difference between dog training and dog behaviour and why dog trainers can get into trouble and make situations worse when there is an underlying reason for the symptoms i.e. barking caused by anxiety. Solve the anxiety and the barking will resolve.

We can continue to go back and forth but it is not really relevant to this thread other than to say that there are kinder options available. If you do want more information then perhaps look at some of the work done by Karen Overall who is quite amazing and puts animals welfare and quality of life first.

Edited April 20, 2016 by Jumabaar