Electric No Bark Collars

[raz]

So K9 - with the fatalities during the debarking procedure, is that from the procedure itself or reaction to anaesthetic ?

Edited May 9, 2005 by raz

[mita]

A good thread with interesting opinions & info. Food for thought in what you said, gooddog.

Very in touch with the reality many dog owners face.

K9...re dogs dying under a debarking op...the vet I was told about, insisted that the op must be the last ditch stand....when everything else had failed. So those dogs would have had an uncertain future before the op.

So debarking's not an option of first choice. My case of 2 is hardly a generalization, I know...but those tibs have smokey, low-pitched barks. Gives them no stress at all. Until the owners told me they had been debarked, I just thought they'd been lucky to be born with sexy voices! ;)

Edited May 9, 2005 by mita

[Nekhbet]

Debarking is the surgical destruction o the vocal folds of the larynx causing the dog to bark with a reduced volume. It is commonly performed in highly populated areas or in response to complaints from neighbours about the dog barking. Some breeds bark more than others so some breeders will routinely debark puppies prior to sale in the urban area. Obviously, the procedure is always performed under anaesthetic. (RSPCA WEBSITE)

Not the best source but what can we do. Complications can arise from improper healing of the throat (coughing, wheezing, choking, not being able to eat etc) or unexperienced vets doing a poor job. The anesthetic is risky too, many dogs can stop breathing or their heart can stop, but as with most surgeries.

I've seen electronic and citronella collars sold at my local pet supplies. The shop people had no clue about which to use and when, but they were more then willing to get at least $300 out of me (Scary these people run a puppy preschool) I inquired them for electric with remote and they looked at me like I had told them the sky was purple and it rained chickens.

I dont think theyre for everyone, especially lazy people. I also think the dog has to have the 'mental strength' (if you get what I mean ) and the owner has to put in the time to show the dog the barking is causing the punishment. With all those different council charges you'd think they would make sure that a nusience dog went for regular behaviour check ups from the person that prescribed the anti barking collar... aaah thats right I live in a perfect world ;)

[raz]

Now I'm getting somewhere. Thanks Nekhbet.

Sexy voices, Mita, or a faint smokers cough? ;)

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: thanks Tommy.. hope your collar is going well...

*********************

Raz:

So K9 - with the fatalities during the debarking procedure, is that from the procedure itself or reaction to anaesthetic ?

K9: there can be many underlying issues that can cause you to lose your dog during surgery.

I could give you 5 examples of Chis that died from heart complications under anaesthetic, thats in the last 12 months.

Mita:

K9...re dogs dying under a debarking op...the vet I was told about, insisted that the op must be the last ditch stand....when everything else had failed.

K9: well some vets will debark on request, others want to see council notice etc...

Mita:

but those tibs have smokey, low-pitched barks. Gives them no stress at all.

K9: debarking doesnt cause the stress, sometimes barking causes thje stress.

Mita:

Until the owners told me they had been debarked, I just thought they'd been lucky to be born with sexy voices!

K9: & that is something else that should be considered, the results of debarking vary quite a bit, some dogs end up silent, others end up with an annoying whistle thats worse than the bark, & others have some regrowth that see's the dog barking again...

[raz]

K9: there can be many underlying issues that can cause you to lose your dog during surgery.

I could give you 5 examples of Chis that died from heart complications under anaesthetic, thats in the last 12 months.

Yep, I get it now. Thanks for that. ;)

[mita]

Sexy voices, Mita, or a faint smokers cough? :D

Definitely sexy, Raz. Not the raspy sound of a smoker's cough.

Can't you see women lined up at the debarking vet asking for sexy voices!!! ;)

[mita]

others have some regrowth that see's the dog barking again...

Yes, K9, one of those 2 tibs had regrowth...& the op was done again.

And you're right what strict & ethical guidelines the debarking vet set down...his clinic actually referred the dog to a dog behaviourist & the owners had to follow the instructions & program.

Most people never needed to go past that stage.

Just out of interest, someone told me that when criminals get plastic surgery to change their appearance, they also sometimes get surgery on the vocal cords which changes the quality of their voice, too.

Edited May 10, 2005 by mita

[caffiend42]

In my opinion the RSPCA should not have the legal power to presecute because of their legal status as a charity they can not be made accountable if they get it horribly worng. They therefore have no incentive to get it right.

Gooddog

Exactly - and not just in this issue either of course.

[PAX]

For a vet to perform a debark in NSW you are supposed to have exhausted all other methods and have no other choice apart from Euthanasia and must supply a Stat dec signed by a JP stating this. Unless its changed

[gooddog]

I have corrected my comment about electronic containment systems in NSW...there is no Veterinary prescription required, but there are some fencing requirements.

Also, the man from Tweed Heads who was prosecuted recently by the RSPCA for using bark control collars on his dogs has contacted me.

Keep up the great conversations, and my dogs did GREAT at the Million Paws Flyball competition on the weekend!!!

It was fun, thank you all who organised it (by the way, I know it was organised by the RSPCA).

Gooddog

[Clyde]

She has huge scar tissue in the area and no further debarking was possible as it would have compromised her ability to breath.

My Saint was debarked before I got her. She has a huge amount of scar tissue which does cause breathing difficulties for her. When she gets over excited she gags and wheezes as though not enough air is coming through. She has raspy breathing too. Tube-ing her for surgery is quite fiddly. She had an infection from where she was attacked by another dog in her throat which formed a large hard lump which I have had to leave, as the surgery would have created even more scar tissue

When she does bark, it sounds as though she has had a pack of Marlboros, however she is not a huge barker at all.

Edited May 19, 2005 by Dru

[KitKat]

I was baby sitting a rescue border collie a little while ago..and she had been debarked. When she did bark it sounded like a foxie wrapped in a towel...now this might be what is wanted...but the poor mite had problems breathing when she was stressed and during/after exercise.

[Denis Carthy]

EddyAnne

Quoted:

Victorian Consolidated Regulations - PREVENTION OF CRUELTY TO ANIMALS REGULATIONS 1997 - SECT 7E

Denis Carthy

I find that strange, in the Innotek Vs RSPCA 2002 evidence was given to the FEDERAL COURT OF AUSTRALIA that there was no ban or restrictions, the RSPCA could not forwards any evidence that there was.

EddyAnne

As to success rate with anti-bark collars well maybe there should be some INDEPENDENT SURVEYS by people that have no political or financial gain from anti-bark collars.

Denis Carthy.

You have hit the nucleus of what the fuss is about – its purely commercial, the RSPCA Qz made a fortune collecting in its campaign and lost a lot of it to Innotek.

EddyAnne

With this in mind I wonder what would be the effects of electrical stimulation on human tissue cells and dog tissue cells.

Denis Carthy

Non, and there is nothing suspect at all *1. Cells are interfered with as soon as a normal collar rubs the skin and other things, I have pasted some links below to static stimulation items which include erotic toys.

Tri-Tronics alone have manufactured around 6.5 million collars, there are seven other major manufacturers globally and there are no adverse effects of any kind.

All these people who shout against them cannot come up with one single case of any problem with them, they have never used one and know nothing about them, AND if they did make any claim they would have to name the make, model and year of manufacture so

A) It could be assessed if the collar was used correctly.

B) The manufacturer could examine the claim and take action against any liable or deal with any problem the collar might have, there are no known problems only welfare benefits with them. It is easy to tell fake claims about e-collars, the person never mentions the make, model or year of manufacturer of the collar, that way they avoid the liable laws.

There are two categories of collars, limited use and e-training collars, there are probably about 90 models on the market of varying qualities and uses, to say e-collar really means very little. I support and recommend Tri-Tronics Pro 100 range and after June the G2 Pro 100 range for use as a training aid, especialy the G2 Pro 500, and all Dogtra collars for use as a training aid.

************************************

grotty_rotty

Quick ?.... are the Innotek Containment systems LEGAl in Vic?

Denis Carthy

Well they were in 2002, below is the Innotek Vs RSPCA case

Innotek Vs RSPCA AUSTRALIA

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/cth/fed...t/2002/860.html

*1.

Klein, D., 2000. Elektrogeräte: Grundlagen, Wirkungen und mögliche Gefahren im Hinblick auf die Anwendung

in der Hundeausbildung. Der Gebrauchshund 1, 38–48.

There have been no electric shock collars for around 20 years, you have been fed none sense for commercial and to some extent political gain.

1.

Below link: Electric shock collars and Static Shock collars what they were:

http://p199.ezboard.com/fletstalkbreedingf...opicID=14.topic

2.

Below: Static Stimulation defined and explained, Part 2 is easy to understand but part 1 covers some other things.

http://p199.ezboard.com/fletstalkbreedingf...opicID=13.topic

All the links below are just some samples of the exact same static stimulation.

Deep Brain Parkinsons

http://www.clevelandclinicmeded.com/deepbrain2/intros.htm

http://www.wireheading.com/brainstim/

http://www.erosboutique.org/store/merchant...tro_Stimulation

Acupuncture etc

http://www.bodyclock.net/

http://www.vet.purdue.edu/cpr/research.htm...l%20Stimulation

http://www.sexshop365.co.uk/catalog/default.php?cPath=65_192

Wound Healing

http://www.medicaledu.com/estim.htm

Deep Brain

http://www.pallidotomy.com/deep_brain_stimulation.html

http://feswww.fes.cwru.edu/

http://www.newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/shoppi...ns/beauty/9488/

Magnetic

http://apu.sfn.org/content/Publications/Br...timulation.html

Clinical studies have been designed and conducted for Tri-Tronics by veterinarians and physiologists at a major university. The scientific studies tested for possible cardiopulmonary and epidermal effects of Tri-Tronics electrical stimulation applied to the ventral surface of the neck of healthy dogs. These studies showed that there are no clinically significant changes in electrocardiograms, blood pressures or properties of the skin underlying the contact points. The clinical investigations involved parameters of electrical stimulation (e.g. maximum output voltage, output impedance, current density, and repetition rate) that are basically the same for all our models. The safety of these units is supported by strong scientific clinical data. Both the collar and the transmitter have redundant safety cut off features which shut down the unit and prevent excessive stimulation. These safety features receive special attention in Tri-Tronics environmental reliability and quality analysis.

Edited May 27, 2005 by Denis Carthy

[MonElite]

Physiotherapy has been using various currents to treat various muscular and nervous deseases for years and years. So there is no doubt that they work.

[greentea]

Well. you know how busy the RSPCA must be now

--what with attending dog shows and searching for docked tails to prosecute owner/breeders-

Wow, do the rspca really go to dog shows and prosecute dogs with docked tails?

My new puppy came from WA, I didn't know he had a docked tail til I collected him from the airport... Would I be in trouble if he was sighted by an rspca person at a dog show?

[MonElite]

No greentea, there is no law agains OWNING a docked dog.

[Denis Carthy]

Goodog

Also, the man from Tweed Heads who was prosecuted recently by the RSPCA for using bark control collars on his dogs has contacted me.

Denis

Can you tell us more about this case-I mean did the RSPCA just prosecute the guy and then he went to court and simply pleaded guilty because the RSPCA had told him it was illegal-or did he find out if it really was illegal first?

I ask because of the case in the Innotek Vs RSPCA case - the RSPCA simply told the woman it was illegal-which it was not- then prosecuted and she simply took RSPCA at its word, she thought it was illegal because the RSPCA said it was illegal and never bothered to find out - so she went to court-the court asked "Guilty or not guilty" and she pleaded guilty-that was that, the court simply accepted her plea.

A hypothetical example would be-if somone here paid the prosecution fee to prosecute me for cruelty because I gave my dog a dirty look and I then I went to court and pleaded guilty-then I would be guilty - if I pleaded not guilty then whoever privatly prosecuted (eg RSPCA) me would have to prove that giveing my dog a dirty look is cruel.

So did anyone check out the actual law and anti barks in the case mentioned?

Edited May 23, 2005 by Denis Carthy

[Guest Carls]

I am facing this very tpoic right now. We have a 4yo fox terrier, who barks at night. Usially i will hear him and be straight up and tell him to be quiet and he does. We have had complaints from the neighbours next door about him reportedly barking'all day and all night' the council said. This is bull. I have been working 1 day a week since christmas and have been home all the time and i KNOW he does no bark all day or all night. These neighbours have also called the RSPCA and said we had gone away and had left the dog uncared for, the RSPCA came to our house at 7:30am and found us there and were mighty pissed off that they had lied. We have now had an official letter of complaint from the council and i am starting to get really stressed about all of this. We have even had the dog in the laundry of a night for the past 4 weeks or so and the complaints still keep coming. One was lodged on the 13th of may. What are your options when someone is complaining like this?

[Denis Carthy]

Carls the answere is to find oit about the law where you are-quite clearly in Oz there seems to be total confusion almost everywhere.

What must never be forgotten is that the RSPCA there literaly went round making up stories and collecting money for themseleves for their campaign, although that ended up with the RSPCA Qz being fined a total of $100,000 that does not stop them still spreading the same false stories and most of the posts here show total confusion as to each law in different places.

Carls- I have recommended probably in the region of 30+ ant-bark collars and seen them work on the dogs EVERY TIME,usually by about 3 stimulations, there is no stress and anyone suggesting electric shock and stressed dogs is simply lieing.

If you call Innotek Aus they will tell you if any laws exist and where so thats link 1, below. Again I am posting the Inotek Vs RSPCA case - if you type in find -

-"herald sun article" -

-you will come to the part where they said e-collars were banned here and there the TRUTH was they were not banned at all + other things in that case which the RSPCA simply made up-liable is the civil law word for lieing, they were found to have liabled Innotek.

I think in view of the RSPCA spreading false stories all over Oz, and collecting money for itself by doing so, most people are simply repeating 1st second and third hand stories, originated by the RSPCA Oz and which once examined have no basis in fact, the RSPCA cannot be truested and that has been proved by your court.

Innotek Aus web site:

http://www.innotek.com.au

Innotek Vs RSPCA

http://www.austlii.edu.au/

Edited May 23, 2005 by Denis Carthy