Electric No Bark Collars

[Steve K9Pro]

Muttlover:

As for the actual topic of bark collars, I wouldn't use a shock collar

K9: I cant see where any one is asking you to use a collar?

Muttlover:

Although I have one very noisy dog

K9: I might mention that in many cases, barking is caused by stress. Why does your dog bark so much?

ML:

I also wonder if the council is going to be more lenient on dogs that bark and are complained to by some anti-dog resident?

K9: Something else that needs to be considered is, you will be building an anti dog community with your noisy dog that will no doubt, be annoying your neighbours.

I would like to know your thoughts on the RSPCA approving the transportation standards of sheep from Australia?

[Muttlover]

Denis,

I have never used or seen an anti-bark collar, and my only information comes from an internet search on them when I was having trouble with my dog. But I then found that by putting obsticles along the fence it stopped my dog barking because it broke the habit he had gotten into as a puppy. I wouldn't put any type of anti-bark collar on my dogs without first talking to a vet about the effects, but as it didn't come to that, I had no need to look further into the collars. My opinion is just that, an opinion that anti bark collars that deliver an electric shock to the dog when their throat vibrates (barks) would be counter productive and I would think unpleasent. I also based this opinion on a friend of mine that used one on an outgoing dog and ended up with a dog that was nervous around people and shuddered at loud noises. This is why I don't agree with anti-bark collars. I hope this has cleared up my opinion.

I don't understand what you are talking about with the RSPCA. I do support them, as the majority of campaigns they have I agree with. What do you mean by photo? What photo are you talking about as I am unaware that there was one. I was responding to the post about anti bark collars with my own opinion, and I felt the criticism VAT gave to the RSPCA was undeserved. My main criticism of the RSPCA is that they should be doing more for battery hens and live sheep exports, which has nothing to do with dogs. I support their work against tail docking.

K9

I was given my dog when he was one year old and he had had a stressful first year. The barking has become a habit from his first year. We have managed to overcome all of his behavioural problems with patience and training except the barking at the one fence. I was worried that his barking would annoy my neighbour and that is why I looked into anti-bark collars (breifly). My neighbour hasn't complained to me in the 2 years I've had him, but it would be better for everyone for my dog to stop barking at the fence. he doesn't bark a lot compared to other dogs in the street, but he does bark at this one neighbour whenever he is outside in his driveway.

I do not and have never supported the RSPCA stance on live sheep transport. I was merely speaking about the RSPCA stance on tail docking. Again, I hope this has cleared up any misunderstandings.

[Steve K9Pro]

ML:

My neighbour hasn't complained to me in the 2 years I've had him

K9: that certainly doesnt mean that he/she isnt bothered by the barking, only a small percentage of the population will voice complaints...

Ml:

he doesn't bark a lot compared to other dogs in the street

K9: your neighbour/s (I guess you have more than 1?) will not be concerned about the dog ten houses down the street that barks more than yours.

[MonElite]

I have never used or seen an anti-bark collar, and my only information comes from an internet search on them when I was having trouble with my dog.

My opinion is just that, an opinion that anti bark collars that deliver an electric shock to the dog when their throat vibrates (barks) would be counter productive and I would think unpleasent. I also based this opinion on a friend of mine that used one on an outgoing dog and ended up with a dog that was nervous around people and shuddered at loud noises. This is why I don't agree with anti-bark collars.

:rolleyes:

This is like saying - I DONT like Chinese food, never tried it, never been to a Chinese restaurant, but have heard of a guy that got sick after eating something not even sure if it was Chinese.

And I will never try Chinese food, I've done a brief search on the internet about the taste.

Edited May 27, 2005 by myszka

[Steve K9Pro]

M:

This is like saying - I DONT like Chinese food, never tried it, never been to a Chinese restaurant, but have heard of a guy that got sick after eating something not even sure if it was Chinese.

And I will never try Chinese food, I've done a brief search on the internet about the taste.

K9: yes I have heard that about Polish popppyseed cakes! :rolleyes:

[MonElite]

K9: yes I have heard that about Polish popppyseed cakes! :rolleyes:

Dont tempt me

Is the lawn mowed?

Your dogs ready to do a performance in front of audience?

Champagne in the fridge? (French champagne that is )

Are you prepared to be invaded by a flock of black and tans?

If I get any NO answers than no poppyseed cake ;) ;)

[Steve K9Pro]

M:

Is the lawn mowed?

K9: Yep! you'll see.

M:

Your dogs ready to do a performance in front of audience?

K9: attack me & see, on lookers wont be disapointed.

M:

Champagne in the fridge? (French champagne that is  )

K9: what are we celebrating, limb removal? :rolleyes:

M:

Are you prepared to be invaded by a flock of black and tans?

K9: born ready, bring it on!

[MonElite]

OMG - now I will have to bring that cake........

As to celebrations - I guess we can celebrate at the end of the day if no dogs will "eat" each other :rolleyes:

[Denis Carthy]

Muttlover

I have never used or seen an anti-bark collar, and my only information comes from an internet search on them when I was having trouble with my dog.

Denis

Well you have not been looking very far-I have read several posts on here, other than my own, by people with first hand knowledge and experience of anti-barks and all of them clearly state the benefits of them and there is no suggestion of any adverse effects only benefits.

- One manufacturer alone, Tri-Tronics had produced 6.5 million training and anti bark collars, there are at least 7 major manufacturers retailing on a global scale, cases of anti-bark collars causing any adverse effects when used correctly are so negligible that they are so very rare and simply do not realistically count, the RSPCA Oz could not find one single case in the seven years between 1996 and 2002 so it made cases up which were false.

- I do not know the total figures of the combined sales but based on the 6.5 million figure alone + the personal experience of people here – what do those combinations suggest to you?

Muttlover

I wouldn't put any type of anti-bark collar on my dogs without first talking to a vet about the effects,

Denis

That is a sensible approach and that would have been a sensible comment to broadcast to a public world wide audience, millions of whom are looking for factual information. Unfortunately for many dogs you went far beyond that and your inappropriate comments could affect the welfare of millions of dogs who could otherwise have benifitted by use of a static pulse anti-bark collar.

You claim you are supporter of the RSPCA and clearly some of your comments suggest your thinking is aligned with theirs. Your approach to this subject does indicate that canine ‘welfare’ and a dogs relationship with its human owner, its social environment and the owners relationship with their surrounding social environment, including councils are not the priority they should be with the RSPCA and its supporters, of which you are one. That raises the question, what is the hidden agenda?

Muttlover

My opinion is just that, an opinion that anti bark collars that deliver an electric shock to the dog when their throat vibrates (barks) would be counter productive and I would think unpleasent.

Denis.

When a dog barks – jumps-eats- sniffs bottoms – runs in front of a car- it is a reward to the dog, the dog experiences the behaviour as pleasant, rewards to the dog increase behaviour

-each enjoyable repetition reinforces the behaviour and increases the probability of recurrence

- the dog itself has no awareness of the physiological stress caused on its larynx and the long term damage that can will do, etc.

In the case of a nuisance barker the entire neighbourhood is punished each time the dog starts a nuisance barking session, psychological stress is caused to the local population, this might include people or a child who are ill and need peace and quiet, someone might have just been bereaved

– punishment decreases a behaviour –

– the frequent punishment of anti social barking, to which the local population is exposed at random, decreases the tolerance behaviour displayed prior to the punishments of anti-social barking –

– the dog ends up in rescue only to pass on the problem and the local population changes from high tolerance to low tolerance of dogs, or as you put it, anti dog, a ‘humane’ and sensible solution?

When the dog barks with an anti bark collar the impulse removes the reward element which causes nuisance barking, no animal presists in a behaviour which is not rewarding-the entire neighbourhood is rewarded by being able to live their lives in privacy without the intrusion of other peoples problems passed on to them (barking dog) which increases the probabilty of a pleasant environement, if you cannot accept this maybe you should consider a Gerbil instead of a dog.

Muttlover

My opinion is just that

Edit

. I also based this opinion on a friend of mine that used one on an outgoing dog and ended up with a dog that was nervous around people and shuddered at loud noises.

Denis

Yes you will get some dogs react like this to anti barks, if they have a predisposition to nervousness, they can react the same to shouting, a car horn, going to the vets, and a thousand other things. However, the reaction of dog you describe to an anti bark is

(a) very rare

(b) you make on mention of the make of collar and so it is not possible to know if the collar make and model had steep gradients between each level or low gradients, the later being the best.

Again, the amount of collars sold world wide is phenomenal, success rate without stress on the dogs is absolutely phenomenal and anti-bark collars have improved relationships between the dog, its human owner, their neighbours and councils, on top of that they have saved more dogs from rescues than any other known method of stopping barking.

Going back to your friends case-I am not a specialist in anti-bark collars or static pulse boundary fences. I know some anti-barks are not very reliable and others have to steep a gradient between levels. As far as the dog you mentioned being afraid of loud noises, thats nothing to do with anti-bark collars, something else.

I do know that the Petsafe De-Lux model is problem free, low gradients, highly reliable and probably the best anti bark collar on the market and based on what I know of that collar I would and do recommend it.

Muttlover

My opinion is just that, an opinion that anti bark collars that deliver an electric shock to the dog

Denis

It is against the laws of physics for any modern e-collar, of any type to give an electric shock. An electric shock passes into the body, there are no electric shock collars manufactured that I am aware of, if you know one name it otherwise don’t spread scare stories based on non factual date, although it is the norm for the RSPCA to maintain those appalling ethics, to collect money.

One thing is highly conspicuous by its absence in your post-I linked a few, of many, links showing haltie head cages are a stressfull bloodbath, you made no comment at all on that-I am I right in thinking the RSPCA, your collegues, sell them for proffit and does that ccount for your ommissions of comment of them?

In future please give a true representation of what static pulse is, including some of the hundreds of uses its put to daily, if you click the links below details of static static electro pulse and obsolete electric shock collars of long ago, to which you refer, are detailed, to state the obvious (obvious to most people) if something cannot give an electric shock it is not an electric shock collar or anything else.

At the link below, scroll to - Denis Carthy - 24th May 2005 - 03:48 PM

http://forums.dogzonline.com.au/index.php?...=60#entry396511

Electric Shock collars

http://p199.ezboard.com/fletstalkbreedingf...opicID=14.topic

Edited May 27, 2005 by Denis Carthy

[Nekhbet]

hey muttlover

yeah there are some brands of importable dog collars that are too strong for a horse let alone a dog. Did you friend buy a working level collar? I heard German made are the strongest as they are made for those hard-a$$ shutzhund/KNVP level dogs that cant be controlled by any other means. I heard a story about some police officer in america who put shock collars on his unruly sons ... and wondered why he was charged with cruelty ... duh

OK They are not for you if you can find another way to stop barking (you lucky thing you) but please dont be so quick to dismiss a product that has stopped many a dog ending up in the pound as a nusience animal. Yes, some are unsuitable for the average pup but there are some collars that are relatively mild (I tried the innotek one on my arm with the mobile on vibrate to set it off. Level 2 was just a buzz really no pain) Like check chains and other paraphanalia they are simply a tool, not to be left on 24/7 to zap the poor dog into submission (I think your friend grossly misused the collar if the dog now has social problems)

[inthedoghouse]

Hi there, long time reader, first time poster. I come across this forum a lot in google searches

I'll admitt I haven't read through this whole post so I hope it hasn't already been mentioned.

I don't want to continue an arguement for or against here... but I have heard from a veterinary behaviourist about 2 cases where an electric shock collar has caused interdog aggression or aggression towards another person. In brief, case 1. Dog barks, gets zapped and attacks dog next to it as a result. Case 2, dog barks, gets zapped, goes after child. What are people's thoughts on this? That it could be possible that in some cases an electric collar is not suitable as it could lead to aggression toward what it associates with the collar.

[Kavik]

Those sound like cases of redirected aggression.

[Denis Carthy]

nthedoghouse

'll admitt I haven't read through this whole post so I hope it hasn't already been mentioned.

Denis

Understandable, it’s a long post and as new information comes to light the post developes in information and educational content.

nthedoghouse

. but I have heard from a veterinary behaviourist about 2 cases where an electric shock collar

Denis

Then the vet was either lying or he/she was talking about something 20 years ago and probably long before that;

(A)

There has been no electric shock collars manufactured for at least that time. The one exception was a German electric shock collar.

(B)

If they did see an electric shock collar used near another dog then what they saw was blatant misuse. Electric shock collars were not supposed to be used near other dogs, they probably would casuse displaced aggression, as would a collar and lead if jerked hard enough or a rolled up newspaper out of the blue.

Many dogs who off lead show no aggression exhibit displaced aggression if on the lead, the obsolete or modern static stimulation collars do not eliminate the risks of on-lead displaced aggresion, rolled up newspaper displaced aggression, displaced flexi lead fly out aggression etc, etc.

Displaced aggrssion due to a variety of training/dog aids has a vast spectrum and is not the subject, anymore than it is specific to any single piece of equipment, (lead-choke chain-newspaper-someone coughing-play balls, etc ).

I only ever saw one remote electric shock collar, in Germany, and that was the late 1990’s. As far as I know they have not been manufactured by anyone for many years and the German one had no market at all outside Europe, static electro pulse collars took over the global market long before that.

Going back to the 1970’s I did use a non remote electric shock collar and those collars have been obsolete anyway, probably at that time, for well over 20 years although the odd very rare one was stuck in some ones drawer long after that. I did manage to add one to some guys training schedule in the late 1980’s but it was nothing more than a miracle that the batteries had not exhausted,

So no, the vet you mention has not seen any electric shock collar do anything for at least 20 years, unless maybe he/she was in Europe this past decade. Can you think of any reason why the vet would lie to you? Do you think you could get the vet/behaviourist to post on this thread if you asked him/her?

Click links below for info on electric shock collars.

Electric Shock collars and static electro pulse shock collars.

http://p199.ezboard.com/fletstalkbreedingf...opicID=14.topic

Edited May 28, 2005 by Denis Carthy

[inthedoghouse]

Nope, no reason to lie. I have an article in front of me from the Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors stating the same thing, however I believe it was written in the UK so perhaps this is where the confusion occurs.

It does refer to incorrect use and inexperienced users, which is why I had to stress I was not casting stones.

[Denis Carthy]

inthedoghouse

Nope, no reason to lie.

Denis

Do you mean you cannot think of a reason?

inthedoghouse

I have an article in front of me from the Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors stating the same thing, however I believe it was written in the UK so perhaps this is where the confusion occurs.

It does refer to incorrect use and inexperienced users,

Denis

I am in UK, there is no confusion, there are no electric shock collars anywhere and no e-collars which are used like them anymore. Maybe you have not read the article at link 1 below AND the links I have pasted into it – an electric shock MUST enter the body or it is not an electric shock..

The article you read is a very subtle advert, APDC –APDT –Barkbusters - UKCCB and a few others are nothing more than commercial trade bodies selling commercial products, usually called ‘positive training’ ‘behavioural modification’ ‘therapy’ and a whole load of other commercially influential titles using subliminal, persuasive words and terms, such as ‘come to us’ don’t use an “electric shock collar”

You probably have similar trades bodies in Oz, here we have things like ‘Federation of garage mechanics’ – ‘Society for philanthropic Bailiffs’ – ‘ Honest door to door salesman league’ that’s what APDC is, it stands for ‘Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors’ –

Before even seeing one of them a naïve pet owners has subliminally absorbed the term ‘counselling’ and is thinking in anthropomorphic terms, he/she is then persuaded that their dog needs ‘therapy’ because it will not recall, because it ignores the owner and stuff like that.

They always insist on an assessment visit in UK that averages £100 = $239.509 AUD and after that it averages around $116 per hour until the money, the insurance or pet owners patience runs out, whichever comes first, slowly pet owners here are waking up to it.

They see a dog out of control for most of its life, $1000's spent on it to APDC and other equivilents untill the owner gives up, then, a static stimulation training collar is added as one of the training aids by a competant trainer (everything APDC - APBT - UKCCB says you should not do) to the dogs program and the dog is fine within a couple of sessions.

I don’t have time to answer in full it’s Sat AM here and I am of out, but, APDC and APDT know nothing about e-collars, they are loosing money because of them and I estimate that within 3 years they will be lucky to commercially survive on any worthwhile basis and they, non of them, know the first thing about e-collars and their application except if you introduce a pet owner to a training category collar you will go out of business pretty fast, that’s what’s happening here in UK as pet owners slowly learn what they are.

Now, as far as confusion goes-

link 1 – Explains what static pulse is, an electric shock is entirely different, please use the links on the post as they are intended to give a much clearer understanding of static electro pulse.

Scroll to – Denis Carthy. 24th May 2005

http://forums.dogzonline.com.au/index.php?...pic=26630&st=60

Link 2- This leads to my equivalent of the APDC & APDT commercial add you saw saying ‘don’t use a shock collar’

http://k9media.net/dogchat/viewtopic.php?t...8077d6d4fb9f5cb

Link 3 – This is some feedback of pet owners of APDC and APDC here in UK.

http://k9media.net/dogchat/viewtopic.php?t...690e08889ecfa6e

I would like to know if Link 1 clears up your confusion of electric shock collars and a modern e-training collar? I assume that’s what you mean by confusion. If you are still unclear as to the difference between obsolete electric shock collars and static pulse collars, just say so.

Are you under some kind of impression that you just give some kind of high level jolt or something? if so I would like to know your source. The subtle commercial advert you mention by the way is unfair trading.

Edited May 28, 2005 by Denis Carthy

[inthedoghouse]

Are you under some kind of impression that you just give some kind of high level jolt or something? if so I would like to know your source. The subtle commercial advert you mention by the way is unfair trading.

No no, not thinking of a high level jolt.

How is me mentioning my source unfair trading? If I had mentioned after you asked if you would like to know my source would you have still considered it to be so? Do you consider yourself openly bad mouthing the organisations mentioned as unfair trading? Grow up. I have looked over your posts on the link and I do not find your own answers to be credible.

I had one real response regarding redirected aggression (or simply stating it so), the rest is another push towards accepting the shock collars. I'm done here thankyou.

[Denis Carthy]

nthedoghouse

How is me mentioning my source unfair trading?

Denis

No, not you unfair trading, the add and organisations are unfair trading, the add is one example.

nthedoghouse

Do you consider yourself openly bad mouthing the organisations mentioned as unfair trading?

Denis.

I did not badmouth them, I did point out some facts and link pet owners comments, those comments include one pet owner whose dog was PTS by someone who did not have the ability to handle the dog, only the abilty to charge around £40 to say PTS.

If the facts I have linked and facts I have stated look bad it’s because the facts are bad, if you do not like the facts that’s that does not constitute bad mouthing it constitutes something you do not like and an emotional reaction to what you read.

inthedoghouse

Grow up. I have looked over your posts on the link and I do not find your own answers to be credible.

Denis

I have written several posts on here and with quite a number of words, if you specify I can comment, if not what can say?

inthedoghouse

I had one real response regarding redirected aggression (or simply stating it so), the rest is another push towards accepting the shock collars. I'm done here thank you.

Denis

No need to thank me, you are better informed than before you posted and the info is free to all.

Inthedoghouse

rest is another push towards accepting the shock collars

Denis

Here in UK around 2002 there only 5 significant retailers and only about 2 advertising regularly in some gun magazines, sales were quite small. There are dozens of adds in the same mags now.

By last month there are now 50 significant retailers and dozens of small set ups. In the financial year 2004-2005 there were an estimated just under ¼ million static pulse stim collars sold in the UK in this past finacial year, compared well below 30,000 three years ago, they are accepted and popularity is growing by the day.

I think you did not read the internal link I put down, they are not shock collars, it is the ability to cause a sensation by electrical means. If you do not want to learn then why not accurately inform as an alternative, I have not noticed accurate info from you yet.

Edited May 28, 2005 by Denis Carthy

[Steve K9Pro]

Inthedoghouse:

In brief, case 1. Dog barks, gets zapped and attacks dog next to it as a result. Case 2, dog barks, gets zapped, goes after child. What are people's thoughts on this? That it could be possible that in some cases an electric collar is not suitable as it could lead to aggression toward what it associates with the collar.

K9: then this person must have a ton of evidence showing dogs attacking people when any type of aversive was applied, check chain, prong collar etc.

This is an old story put out by the e collar bashers, how can you seriously believe that a dog can learn something from one single experience?

Inthe dog house:

Nope, no reason to lie

K9: of course they have a reason to lie, to support their dislike for the prodcuts. Why did the RSPCA lie then?

People lie for two main reasons, to avoid punishment or gain reward....

[MonElite]

IF the redirected agression was a case - yes I have heard of it as well, wouldnt it be considered handler problem/fault?

If the dog is fitted with an antibarking collar (as a training/management tool) shouldnt it be isolated from distractions in the learning phase? Surly, so its a handler problem that left that dog with others. Leave it on its own while it learns not to bark than introduce destractions.

JMHO.