Electric No Bark Collars

[raz]

Great stuff, Eddie. I'm just interested in the debarking stuff from the basis of learning what its all about. I dont know anything about it, so when someone says to me its cruel, or if someone says it works really well, at this point I just say OK 'cos I have nothing to add. Sure training is the way to go - I just want to learn something about a topic I know nothing about.

Dogsbesotted - thanks for that. I'm getting a bit of a picture. I think if I was in a situation where follow up surgery was required due to lack of efficacy of the initial surgery I'd be none too impressed. Cauterisation? Hmmmm. I could be wrong but I'm thinking the recovery period might be lengthy and painful. Once again - I dont know. I'm just assuming.

[dogbesotted]

Wow Eddie

What a perfect example of lateral thinking preventing the development of a problem. Those maremma owners well deserve their dog.

raz,

I too am not impressed with debarking. However sometimes when I have a young maremma here who has barked close to non stop for close to 24 hours it does start to have some glimmer of appeal either that or a dog skin rug on the floor LOLs

[Kavik]

When you have a rescue dog (newly acquired adult) that barks/howls all night (literally - 8 hours) and no one gets any sleep and the neighbours are complaining - you will BEG to use an electric no bark collar.

[EddyAnne]

G'day, Eddy here.

Some Local Councils have Citronella Spray No Bark Collars, where they hire these out to whoever needs them, and I've heard Councils mention that they are effective in about 80% of cases.

There are alternatives one can do than use Citronella Spray No Bark Collars, and in relation to some rescues who barked and howled all night, surprising how many either immediately stopped or gradually stopped through the night or over a couple of night, when allowed to come inside to obtain some companionship either on the bed or next to the bed.

I even know a lady with such a rescue whose husband wouldn't allow the doggie into the house and certainly not in the bedroom. Well she decided to bugger her husband where she slept with the doggie on some cushions on the laundry floor and there was no barking and howling through the night. After a couple of nights when the doggie was asleep she could leave the doggie in the laundry and where the doggie remained quite content, and I think that some little things helped in the process like leaving some of her well scented clothes in the laundry.

[raz]

Hey Eddie, I've been told the citronella collars only work while on ie they do nothing to train the dog. Once they come off the dog reverts back to nuisance barking. I've never used one so cant comment; maybe a DOLer with experience in those can. My check chain in a can works really well and I've had no complaints from the neighbours so cant really say if the yapper here barks while I'm out. I have asked, ofcourse, but the neighbours are all quite genteel so not sure if they're just being nice.

Dogsbesotted - I'm not anti-debarking; I just dont know enough about it, but the cauterisation seems like it would be nasty. I dont know. ;)

[mita]

I used to be dead against debarking..until I found out more about it & listened to the experiences of dog owners.

Now I believe that other means should be tried first...training, changing the environment so the dog can't see the things it tends to bark at, etc, etc, etc. But it can come to a point where only debarking will save the dog from being thrown out of its home....or worse.

People who owned show tibbies & lived in a built-up area, told me how they got their dogs debarked.

But it was done by a vet experienced in doing the procedure. He first insists that owners try all other means....& even refers to a dog behaviourist. Then he counsels about what's involved in debarking...& says that, in some circumstances, the bark returns.

That was the case with one of those tibs....the operation had to be repeated.

I was impressed that the 2 dogs hadn't lost the ability to vocalize....it just sounded lower & quieter. So the sound wouldn't carry & wasn't irritating on the ear.

Edited May 9, 2005 by mita

[woolliwag]

I know of a maremma that has been debarked - the sound is quite distressing to hear - it is more or less a squeak that comes out. I believe it was only successful for a short time.

There are some states that have banned debarking - Victoria is one of those states.

I have 3 maremmas - one is a rescue. We have had her here for about 3 months, she is a barker - loves the sound of her own voice :-) when she goes off on one of her amazing bark sessions nothing will stop her, short of rattling a half full can of pebbles :-). It's amazing how the attention is suddenley taken away from whatever made her bark in the first instance. I also have a small ships bell attached to the outside wall - I ring that when she goes off on one of her tangents too LOL By the way she is adorable and this is her forever home.

In Tassie electric collars are not banned at present but hey the way things are going most things to do with dogs will be banned!

Cheers

Woolliwag

[SALTWOOD]

We have used the citronella collars with very mixed results.

One dog was not a problem barker except when a bitch was in season - he hated the citronella spray and his lips would be sealed whenever we put it on him which was mainly at night and only (as I mentioned) when we had a bitch in season. After a while we didn't even have to fill it. So that would be the perfect senario and result for the citronella collar.

However, some dogs we tried it on learned very quickly exactly how loud they could bark without setting the collar off. Other dogs would bark right through the sprays and found it didn't worry them - it became very costly to constantly refill the collar not to mention tedious as they don't hold much.

Not only that, the maintenance on the collar was very demanding as it was constantly getting blocked and had to be sent away regularly.

Overall I would say that the citronella collar was not worth the money or the hassle.

The electronic collars on the other hand were very effective and as long as you spent the time to do the initial training they really do work. The result was the dog learnt not to bark and if they didn't bark then they didn't get zapped! Correctly used I do not think they are cruel.

I do think that what should be understood is that some breeds of dog do bark more than others and that all the training in the world is not going to help if you are not there and the dog can play by his own rules and some of them find barking just so much fun.

In order to comply with council regulations dogs must be contained and the very fact that they are contained in your own backyard is sometimes enought to make a dog a nuisance barker.

If you have a dog that is a nuisance barker for whatever reason and training and citronella collars don't work and you can't use an electronic collar then de-barking is the next step. I don't like having to debark a dog but if it comes down to de-barking or PTS then I would choose the former.

[EddyAnne]

G'day, Eddy here.

The same can happen with Electrical Stimulation Collars as does with Citronella Spray Collars.

In modifying behaviours this can be more effectively accomplished if an alternative behaviour is used. Say in modifying a chewing behaviour where the dog chews on furniture, the lounge etc, this is more effectively accomplished by offering a chew toy that they dog can chew on and encouraging this by playing with the dog using that chew toy, or giving yet another alternative behaviour say digging in a sandpit to find some buried treats.

In the examples I posted previously I suggested offering alternative behaviours, and with repetitions and if the dog enjoys these alternative behaviours then there might not be any need for an anti-barking collar at all. Simply try applying a training program to encourage more appropriate behaviours than barking behaviour, and also try removing what triggers the barking behaviour.

[Steve K9Pro]

EA:

Some Local Councils have Citronella Spray No Bark Collars, where they hire these out to whoever needs them

K9: It may interest you to know that Citronella is a poison, I have added the links to MY website that contains the material safety data sheet on citronella, I would not spray this on any dog.

Barking advice

EA:

and I've heard Councils mention that they are effective in about 80% of cases.

K9: from my actual experience, I would say 80 % is correct, 80% fail rate, 20 % success rate.

Also, if you speak to anyone who has had a dog die on the table, they will explain yet another reason why debarking is risky.

Something that may also interest some people is that barking causes stress which in turn causes barking thus more stress. Debarking does nothing to reduce stress, as it does not break the cycle, just turns down the volume...

[EddyAnne]

G'day, Eddy here.

As to success rate with anti-bark collars well maybe there should be some INDEPENDENT SURVEYS by people that have no political or financial gain from anti-bark collars.

Many things that humans eat and even things that dogs eat could have an adverse effect and which could be described as poisonous effects, this according to how much eaten in a certain time in concentration plus individual tolerance effects, and this also in things that contact humans and dogs even in such things as Citronella. With this in mind I wonder what would be the effects of electrical stimulation on human tissue cells and dog tissue cells.

[grotty_rotty]

Quick ?.... are the Innotek Containment systems LEGAl in Vic?

[Steve K9Pro]

EA:

As to success rate with anti-bark collars well maybe there should be some INDEPENDENT SURVEYS by people that have no political or financial gain from anti-bark collars.

K9: yes but whomever pays for that survey will influence it no doubt.

EA:

Many things that humans eat and even things that dogs eat could have an adverse effect and which could be described as poisonous effects, this according to how much eaten in a certain time in concentration plus individual tolerance effects, and this also in things that contact humans and dogs even in such things as Citronella.

K9: Eddy, lol, you never cease to amaze me, if I posted info on here that was against an e collar alternative, you would would try & turn it positive.

Here is a simple fact, no dog has ever died form an electronic collar, but many have died undergoing surgery (debarking).

No matter what you say, those results speak for themselves.

The MSDS explains how the product should be used,

EMERGENCY AND FIRST AID PROCEDURES

IF ON SKIN - WASH WITH SOAP AND WATER

IF IN EYES - FLUSH WITH WATER, LIFTING UPPER AND LOWER LIDS OCCASIONALLY.

IF SWALLOWED - RINSE MOUTH WITH WATER; SEEK MEDICAL ADVICE

IF INHALED - REMOVE TO FRESH AIR

If your exposed to citronella on your skin, it says you need to wash the area, not if you bathe in citronella, just if it gets on your skin.

If its in your eyes, flush with water, not if you have 30 litres in your eyes... If you have ANY.

If swallowed, seek medical advice. Not if you drink 30 litres, or 3 litres or 30 mls, if you swallow ANY.

Its that simple, in any doseage its not safe...

I know by all your posts that you dont like electronics, Im fine with that, but please dont ignore the negatives of the alternatives just because you dont like electronics.

I could just as well sell Citronella collars, but I wont due to the risks & side effects that DO occur & the fact that the success rate I have had with these, (which has been backed up by people wanting electonic collars as the citronella failed them), proves them ineffective. It has zero to do with economics...

You may benefit from some real life experience, when someone asks you to help them stop their barking dog as council have issued a destruction order.

All of the little tricks that you suggested are in most cases, in effective.

[gooddog]

Electronic bark control collars are by prescription in NSW, over-the-counter in QLD, and with a Veterinary health check in VIC (your annual vaccination may cover this).

They are not banned and defintely have their place when it comes to treating barking dogs.

The RSPCA have been repeatedly taken to court and defeated on this issue.

Incidentally, the RSPCA would also ban citronella collars in addition if they could.

I suppose that leaves euthanasia as a way to solve really hard cases then?

Barking dogs are a drain on societal health and cause ringing in the ears, sleeplessness, anxiety based illness; barking also exceeds the occupation health and safety standards for a healthy workplace (let alone living beside the ruckus!).

While it is always preferrable to use purely positive methods, they sometimes do not work for barking dogs where the dog becomes adrenailsed and receives an internal high from repeated barking; no amount of positives can overcome that especially when you are not at home to police your dog's behaviour.

Barking dogs MUST be controlled and quickly in the interests of human health and happiness.

That poor man on TV was only doing the neighbourly thin in controlling his barking dogs; I phoned channel 10 and offered to try to help him by examining his dogs and issueing a Veterinary Prescription if I thought it appropriate. I have not heard anything back yet.

For those of you who have never had a really difficult dog problem, you are probably both very good with dogs AND very lucky!

You do not have to be useless with dogs to have a problem as many problems are genetic.

Please try to show a little compassion for people who have two left feet when it comes to dogs, and who may have a dog with a behaviour problem which is genuinely really difficult to treat.

My experience with electronic collars is that they have their place. I know people who even work for the RSPCA who use them, but it is their dirty little secret.

In my opinion the RSPCA should not have the legal power to presecute because of their legal status as a charity they can not be made accountable if they get it horribly worng. They therefore have no incentive to get it right.

Gooddog

Edited May 19, 2005 by gooddog

[gooddog]

All electronic products including innotek containment are legal in VIC with a veterinary health check. They are also unrestricted in QLD and by prescription in NSW. In NSW a containment system DOES NOT require a Veterinary prescription, but should be installed to augment an existing fence.

There are few good studies done, and I am considering doing one, on the effectiveness of electectronic training gear. I have seen studies for and against. The ones with findings against were done by people with agendas against electronics and that coloured their findings in my opinion. The most recent study found citronella bark control collars to be more effective than electronic, but the study only ran for 14 days; in my experience citronella collars have a relapse rate after that. Also, the types of electronic collars and settings were not pfublished which makes the study incomplete.

Edited May 19, 2005 by gooddog

[gooddog]

The body itself RUNS ON ELECTRICITY. There is nothing inherently wrong with electricity, nor citronella where it is deemed to be the best choice.

Edited May 19, 2005 by gooddog

[Steve K9Pro]

EA:

With this in mind I wonder what would be the effects of electrical stimulation on human tissue cells and dog tissue cells.

K9: possibly you have heard of physio therapists using electronic stimulation as treatment on human tissue? Im sure that wasnt done without testing...

[grotty_rotty]

Gooddog... Thanks for that very indepth reply...for all readers.

Interesting comment on the RSPCA...hummmmmm

[tommy15]

hey k9 good to see you ;)

[Kavik]

My parents tried the citronella collar first - he just barked through it. They were reluctant to try the electric one but everyone's fuse was growing very short with all the barking. The barking started the first night the dog (18 months old Beagle) was with them.

The electric no bark collar worked well on this dog, people were finally able to get some sleep!