Jumabaar Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 I can fully understand resting the dogs, and not making them available for pats by all and sundry all day long... but the owners could make a bit of an effort to engage with the public sometimes. Sitting with backs to the crowd and pointedly ignoring everyone can be a bit offputting, and I heard a few people commenting on "snobby show dog people"... at least Boss's owner was happy to engage with the public, and if Boss looked like he was up for it, bringing him forward for interaction... T. I will admit that I fall into the category of ignoring the public a fair bit. I tend to be one that curls up with the dogs and goes to sleep at the Royal. And when it all became too much I went into a soft crate with my dog. I have about an hour or 2 of talking in me about my breeds at royals with all the noise and constant parade of people. I do MUCH better when I have volunteered and haven't done all the showing business and last a good 5 hours. I can also take the dogs that loooove having pats rather than the dogs that are just focused on me which just happens to be my current show dogs. Although at least my sleeping was apparently entertaining with people taking photos of the dogs using me as a pillow and then my legs poking out of the crate...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espinay2 Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 Perhaps because of the international judges. That is part of it for sure. We have other shows with international judges as well though which while often a bit more of an unknown entity if the judge hasn't judged here before (many have), the Royals are a bit different for some reason - or stand out more I guess. Another factor I think is that they pull a slightly different entry demographic as you get more from different states or areas than you may normally. Some dogs and people also handle the venue differently I feel as the show puts a whole lot of different pressures on both dogs and people when compared to 'normal' shows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lhok Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 I had a pat and cuddle of Boss on Saturday... I must say he is a gorgeous boy... and his owner was more than happy to allow interaction and to talk about him with anyone who stopped to chat. The owner of the dog that beat him wasn't as accommodating I found... I actually was a bit disappointed about that, as he was also a stunning dog... I've always found that the Royal can be a bit hit or miss with both exhibitors and juudging... a bit like the Melbourne Cup, where literally any horse in the race could come up and win... lol! T. You might have just been there at the wrong time to say hello to the other dog/owner. The Royal is such a long day and very very noisy in the pavilion all day. Dogs/owners do need to take breaks. I was there on the first Saturday with my dogs. We took turns and rotated the dogs around so that the dogs and owners could have some down time but there was usually at least one of our breed up front for the public to meet. If someone wanted to say hello to one of the dogs taking a break, it would have been 'no, sorry, not right now'. Some may think it rude, but it is what is best for the dog. Also for me! After answering question after question for hours on end (Pyrenean mountain dog, about 60 kilos, from the Pyrenees mountains in France, Pyrenean Mountain Dog, no they only eat about as much as a border collie, Pyrenean Mountain Dog, 60 kilos, not they only come in white, Pyrenean Mountain Dog, no they don't eat that much for their size, 60 kilos ..... yes we do that all day and at about that rate of reply too ROFL!) there were times I needed to sit in my chair and close my eyes and ignore people for a while (can't leave because we have to look after the dogs ..). The show is sensory overload and when you are up from before 4 in the morning, at some point you need to take a break. As for the goings on, I can't comment as I wasn't there when it happened. Whatever happened it is very unfortunate all round, but perhaps best highlights two things - always be a gracious loser and save the venting for the car ride home, and always remember that you are the public face of all purebred dogs and dog sports and you never know who is listening, or what they may hear/how they will hear it (which may or may not be what was meant when it was said). And you are right on the judging. The Royals are always a bit of a wild card when it comes to who wins and who doesn't. The bolded bit reminded me of the time I went to a dog show and I walked up to a lady who had a Lagotto and I asked "May I pat your Lagotto?" as she was about to tell me he wasn't a labradoodle! I do feel for exhibitors answering all those questions would get tiring after a while. --Lhok Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheridan Posted March 30, 2016 Author Share Posted March 30, 2016 Perhaps because of the international judges. That is part of it for sure. We have other shows with international judges as well though which while often a bit more of an unknown entity if the judge hasn't judged here before (many have), the Royals are a bit different for some reason - or stand out more I guess. Another factor I think is that they pull a slightly different entry demographic as you get more from different states or areas than you may normally. Some dogs and people also handle the venue differently I feel as the show puts a whole lot of different pressures on both dogs and people when compared to 'normal' shows. I was at the Royal for a day and my observation of the two judges I saw working was that they were thoughtful and considerate in their judging. I don't know if they do critiques but it would be interesting to see what's said about the various dogs - not just these two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 Yep critiques are done on BOB RuBOB and Puppy of breed and published in one of the dog mags Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silentchild Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 (edited) The Royal is a hard slog like no other show - I've stopped going because it's incredibly expensive, the facilities are poor and dealing with the public can get a bit much. People who interrupt you when you've finally managed to sit down and eat, people who don't take a polite "no I'm sorry" for an answer, people who don't even ask before they pat your dog or try to feed it something....I'm doing the Dog Lovers Show again this year but it's easier because I'm not competing AND I'm allowed to leave the building and get out for a bit. The Royal requires exhibits to be benched all day. Yes, this, so much this. I did my first Royal last year, we were performing three times a day! As performers we were of the understanding that we had to be benched but not showcasing our dogs to the public during in-between times as the dogs rightfully had to rest for the next performance. Still, the members of the public who insisted I pull my tired, sleeping dog out of her crate so they could take a better look, or take a photo, despite my numerous polite but firm "Sorry but no, she is resting" was shocking. I heard people complaining about the fact our dogs were sleeping. When we walked to and from rings, or out to toilet, people would grab at my dog, pull on her fur, kids would jump on her, all without asking. I had a kid run away from his parents right up behind us and smack her hard on her bum, gave us both a fright and I was so furious. The public entitlement at the Royal is like no other, it is truly an exhausting time for both dogs and humans. I've also done Dog Lovers and that was also tiring but I could rotate my dog very often and give her plenty of rest. As we were actually showcasing there I don't mind answering questions and people are also generally a bit more polite and I can make contact as they come up for pats. Slightly bummed I'll be missing Dog Lovers this year. Edited because my brainfart remembered wrongly, it was 3 shows not 5, still exhausting! :laugh: Edited March 30, 2016 by silentchild Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 The Royal is a hard slog like no other show - I've stopped going because it's incredibly expensive, the facilities are poor and dealing with the public can get a bit much. People who interrupt you when you've finally managed to sit down and eat, people who don't take a polite "no I'm sorry" for an answer, people who don't even ask before they pat your dog or try to feed it something....I'm doing the Dog Lovers Show again this year but it's easier because I'm not competing AND I'm allowed to leave the building and get out for a bit. The Royal requires exhibits to be benched all day. Yes, this, so much this. I did my first Royal last year, we were performing five(!!) times a day! As performers we were of the understanding that we had to be benched but not showcasing our dogs to the public during in-between times as the dogs rightfully had to rest for the next performance. Still, the members of the public who insisted I pull my tired, sleeping dog out of her crate so they could take a better look, or take a photo, despite my numerous polite but firm "Sorry but no, she is resting" was shocking. I heard people complaining about the fact our dogs were sleeping. When we walked to and from rings, or out to toilet, people would grab at my dog, pull on her fur, kids would jump on her, all without asking. I had a kid run away from his parents right up behind us and smack her hard on her bum, gave us both a fright and I was so furious. The public entitlement at the Royal is like no other, it is truly an exhausting time for both dogs and humans. I've also done Dog Lovers and that was also tiring but I could rotate my dog very often and give her plenty of rest. As we were actually showcasing there I don't mind answering questions and people are also generally a bit more polite and I can make contact as they come up for pats. Slightly bummed I'll be missing Dog Lovers this year. That's quite a baptism of fire silentchild! Many of us don't even breed the dog we are showcasing either - it's simply a love of the dog and providing people with accurate information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danois Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 I'm impressed -- maybe unjustifiably so -- that a judge gave BOB to a relative outsider. I've never understood how a judge picks #1 among a lot of extremely good dogs . . . all of whom have their strong points and weak points. Seems arbitrary to me . . . and often weighted in favor of the safe option . . . giving the win to the dog who has previously won the most. Hard to imagine lawyers getting involved. Boss' owner must be a very bad sport. Guess it's not beyond imagination that there was some funny business going on and he has a case. Wasn't the owner or handler also the secretary of the Dane club? not really an relative outsider if so? Person involved is/ was current president of Dane Club. Winner is a past president (for several years) of Dane club. Not sure if an overseas judge who was not a breed specialist would know this. The fact your dog has numerous points to its name is really not relevant given dogs accumulate points from all manner of shows. My dog got 1/4 the way to his title without ever beating another dog! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheridan Posted March 30, 2016 Author Share Posted March 30, 2016 Yep critiques are done on BOB RuBOB and Puppy of breed and published in one of the dog mags Do you know which one? I assume they would be in next month's issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 Yep critiques are done on BOB RuBOB and Puppy of breed and published in one of the dog mags Do you know which one? I assume they would be in next month's issue. dog news australia I think Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simply Grand Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 I'm impressed -- maybe unjustifiably so -- that a judge gave BOB to a relative outsider. I've never understood how a judge picks #1 among a lot of extremely good dogs . . . all of whom have their strong points and weak points. Seems arbitrary to me . . . and often weighted in favor of the safe option . . . giving the win to the dog who has previously won the most. Hard to imagine lawyers getting involved. Boss' owner must be a very bad sport. Guess it's not beyond imagination that there was some funny business going on and he has a case. Wasn't the owner or handler also the secretary of the Dane club? not really an relative outsider if so? Person involved is/ was current president of Dane Club. Winner is a past president (for several years) of Dane club. Not sure if an overseas judge who was not a breed specialist would know this. The fact your dog has numerous points to its name is really not relevant given dogs accumulate points from all manner of shows. My dog got 1/4 the way to his title without ever beating another dog! Doesn't that make the whole system a bit irrelevant though? That's not at all aimed at you personally Danois, but if it's a points system but dogs can get points without ever beating another dog, and a dog can be awarded at a Royal based on one judge's opinion without points from elsewhere, and that may or may not be better indication of the quality of the dog than points, then where is there any objective measurement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danois Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 I'm impressed -- maybe unjustifiably so -- that a judge gave BOB to a relative outsider. I've never understood how a judge picks #1 among a lot of extremely good dogs . . . all of whom have their strong points and weak points. Seems arbitrary to me . . . and often weighted in favor of the safe option . . . giving the win to the dog who has previously won the most. Hard to imagine lawyers getting involved. Boss' owner must be a very bad sport. Guess it's not beyond imagination that there was some funny business going on and he has a case. Wasn't the owner or handler also the secretary of the Dane club? not really an relative outsider if so? Person involved is/ was current president of Dane Club. Winner is a past president (for several years) of Dane club. Not sure if an overseas judge who was not a breed specialist would know this. The fact your dog has numerous points to its name is really not relevant given dogs accumulate points from all manner of shows. My dog got 1/4 the way to his title without ever beating another dog! Doesn't that make the whole system a bit irrelevant though? That's not at all aimed at you personally Danois, but if it's a points system but dogs can get points without ever beating another dog, and a dog can be awarded at a Royal based on one judge's opinion without points from elsewhere, and that may or may not be better indication of the quality of the dog than points, then where is there any objective measurement? I don't understand your post. A dog is always awarded at any show based on that judge's opinion on that day of that dog compared to the other dogs in the class/ breed and compared to the breed standard (being the objective standard, which can't be applied any way but subjectively). A dog's prior wins have no relevance to the judge on the day - and nor should they. It is the best dog on the day in that judge's opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danois Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 I'm impressed -- maybe unjustifiably so -- that a judge gave BOB to a relative outsider. I've never understood how a judge picks #1 among a lot of extremely good dogs . . . all of whom have their strong points and weak points. Seems arbitrary to me . . . and often weighted in favor of the safe option . . . giving the win to the dog who has previously won the most. Hard to imagine lawyers getting involved. Boss' owner must be a very bad sport. Guess it's not beyond imagination that there was some funny business going on and he has a case. Wasn't the owner or handler also the secretary of the Dane club? not really an relative outsider if so? Person involved is/ was current president of Dane Club. Winner is a past president (for several years) of Dane club. Not sure if an overseas judge who was not a breed specialist would know this. The fact your dog has numerous points to its name is really not relevant given dogs accumulate points from all manner of shows. My dog got 1/4 the way to his title without ever beating another dog! Doesn't that make the whole system a bit irrelevant though? That's not at all aimed at you personally Danois, but if it's a points system but dogs can get points without ever beating another dog, and a dog can be awarded at a Royal based on one judge's opinion without points from elsewhere, and that may or may not be better indication of the quality of the dog than points, then where is there any objective measurement? On the other point about getting points without beating another dog. It is not my fault that no other dogs (meaning males) were entered at the shows I attended or turned up after being entered. Why should a competitor be penalised for something not within their control. It is always open to a judge to non-award if they consider the single dog not to be worthy of awarding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 I'm impressed -- maybe unjustifiably so -- that a judge gave BOB to a relative outsider. I've never understood how a judge picks #1 among a lot of extremely good dogs . . . all of whom have their strong points and weak points. Seems arbitrary to me . . . and often weighted in favor of the safe option . . . giving the win to the dog who has previously won the most. Hard to imagine lawyers getting involved. Boss' owner must be a very bad sport. Guess it's not beyond imagination that there was some funny business going on and he has a case. Wasn't the owner or handler also the secretary of the Dane club? not really an relative outsider if so? Person involved is/ was current president of Dane Club. Winner is a past president (for several years) of Dane club. Not sure if an overseas judge who was not a breed specialist would know this. The fact your dog has numerous points to its name is really not relevant given dogs accumulate points from all manner of shows. My dog got 1/4 the way to his title without ever beating another dog! Doesn't that make the whole system a bit irrelevant though? That's not at all aimed at you personally Danois, but if it's a points system but dogs can get points without ever beating another dog, and a dog can be awarded at a Royal based on one judge's opinion without points from elsewhere, and that may or may not be better indication of the quality of the dog than points, then where is there any objective measurement? Each dog is judged against the standard, then if there is more then one dog of that breed entered the winner will be the one that, in the judges opinion, most meets the standard. The objective measurement is the standard. Judges can and do withold points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 How often do judges withhold points? I guess it is similar to a horse judge not awarding a first place or champion. It didn't happen very often. In 10 years of stewarding I only had a judge do it once and can only recall one other time were I saw it happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podengo Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 (edited) How often do judges withhold points? I guess it is similar to a horse judge not awarding a first place or champion. It didn't happen very often. In 10 years of stewarding I only had a judge do it once and can only recall one other time were I saw it happen. I've seen it a couple of times, and I have attended a grand total of about 15 dog conformation shows in my entire life :) Edited April 1, 2016 by Podengo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 How often do judges withhold points? I guess it is similar to a horse judge not awarding a first place or champion. It didn't happen very often. In 10 years of stewarding I only had a judge do it once and can only recall one other time were I saw it happen. I have seen it several times and heard of more. There was a whole breed non awarded at Sydney Royal just gone. Happens more then you think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espinay2 Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 (edited) How often do judges withhold points? I guess it is similar to a horse judge not awarding a first place or champion. It didn't happen very often. In 10 years of stewarding I only had a judge do it once and can only recall one other time were I saw it happen. How often? Some may say too often, and some not often enough :laugh: International judges (particularly FCI judges as their system tends to encourage it more so they are more used to doing it) tend to withhold awards more often than Australian judges. Awards are often withheld at the Royals in particular, some years more than others depending on the judge. There were some dogs/breeds at Sydney Royal this year who were not awarded. I have seen dogs not awarded at other shows and have had one dog I was showing was awarded her class but not awarded a challenge many years ago now as the judge felt she was too immature (she had recently turned 6 months and was the only one of her breed present at that show). Edited April 1, 2016 by espinay2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheridan Posted April 1, 2016 Author Share Posted April 1, 2016 How often do judges withhold points? I guess it is similar to a horse judge not awarding a first place or champion. It didn't happen very often. In 10 years of stewarding I only had a judge do it once and can only recall one other time were I saw it happen. I have seen it several times and heard of more. There was a whole breed non awarded at Sydney Royal just gone. Happens more then you think. Really? Which one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tint Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 TSD, you'll be at the Melb DLS? I was hoping for an ESS stand but couldn't see one is there a Dally section? I'll definitely be visiting the Aussie Shepherd club too :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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