tdierikx Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 Sure it would hurt like hell... but she ain't getting any sympathy from me for putting herself in that situation. As a self professed elite dog trainer, she really should have had at least an inkling that shit could go to hell in a handbasket in a noisy confined space with strange people around. And it could have been a whole lot worse... T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 Actually she was trying to explain why she put an ill judged post on FB - when under the influence of strong pain killers and in a lot of pain. She took down the post as it was full of vile comments wishing her ill but felt the need to explain why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 What did she actually do wrong? Trust the handlers and trainers when she shouldn't have? If handlers and trainers told me it was safe to sit in the helicopter I probably would have believed them too. I might have then looked at the revved up police dog and thought 'oh shit' but it would have been too late then. She isn't a police dog trainer. From watching her shows (and I did watch quite a lot) I can't even recall a heap of aggressive dog problems. It was things like dog pulling on the lead or counter surfing. Just pet problem stuff. I can't remember her ever saying that a dog should be put down I quite liked her and her boots :laugh: Oh and she had her own dog training business before the TV show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdierikx Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 I watched at least 2 shows where she advised that a dog should be euthanaised... a few years back now, but I recall one had fear issues, and the other had dog aggression issues. Both animals were fine in their own homes with people they knew, but couldn't be taken out for a walk due to their issues. Seriously, if a bloody dog doesn't feel comfortable going out and socialising, then don't make it have to do so... there are ways to exercise and mentally stimulate a dog in the safety of a familiar environment... *sheesh* T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 I watched at least 2 shows where she advised that a dog should be euthanaised... a few years back now, but I recall one had fear issues, and the other had dog aggression issues. Both animals were fine in their own homes with people they knew, but couldn't be taken out for a walk due to their issues. Seriously, if a bloody dog doesn't feel comfortable going out and socialising, then don't make it have to do so... there are ways to exercise and mentally stimulate a dog in the safety of a familiar environment... *sheesh* T. Unfortunately it's not always that simple although I have never seen her show so don't feel qualified to comment. Certainly here in Vic there are legal obligations when advice is given, particularly if the dog has previously demonstrated aggressive behaviour. Many trainers and rescue organisations don't understand it and it will probably never come to that but those that have proper legal advice certainly are very careful with the phrasing of advice. And pretty much the only dog with a history of biting that can be guaranteed not to bite is a dead one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottsmum Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 What did she actually do wrong? Trust the handlers and trainers when she shouldn't have? If handlers and trainers told me it was safe to sit in the helicopter I probably would have believed them too. I might have then looked at the revved up police dog and thought 'oh shit' but it would have been too late then. She isn't a police dog trainer. From watching her shows (and I did watch quite a lot) I can't even recall a heap of aggressive dog problems. It was things like dog pulling on the lead or counter surfing. Just pet problem stuff. I can't remember her ever saying that a dog should be put down I quite liked her and her boots :laugh: Oh and she had her own dog training business before the TV show. I don't think she actually did anything wrong - until after the fact. Doped up on painkillers she posted a comment on facebook which said it was due to handler error. Which she has since removed. Haters gonna hate I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 What did she actually do wrong? .... as a start: she called herself a 'bystander'. Obviously it is not convenient to admit mistakes, but not taking responsibility by claiming just to be a bystander is IMO pretty shabby...for me a bystander is someone not directly involved in the setup, e.g. the owner of the pig in the CM incident, however, the moment I'm with a dog squashed in a helicopter as part of an exercise I'm not a bystander anymore but part of the setup. Thus it is also her duty of care to evaluate potential risks. If all the 'experts' involved in this incident would have taken 5 minutes for a simple risk assessment they would have picked up that the helicopter noise and the turbulences might make it impossible for the dog to hear the commands. The handler released the dog, the dog unable to hear the clue clearly made the choice - seeing a target in front of him - that he was sent to attack... and of course he did. They all let the dog down, and as all involved - she and the handler - are somehow experienced (if you look on her site she even runs some programs for avoiding dog bites!!!!) the reason for the incident was mainly grossly negligence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 This is a video that shows her recommending euthanasia. I don't know the story behind what happened or whether it was a dog bite or a mauling, as both terms are used but no explanation about the incident itself is given. It was posted on my FB page by someone responding to me posting an article by Victoria Stilwell about Cesar Millan and the pig that got attacked (not that I follow or even particularly like Victoria Stilwell). I'm not posting it as condemnation for recommending euthanasia because I don't know enough about the dog or what happened to have an opinion on whether it was appropriate advice. I'm just backing up what's been said about the fact that she does recommend it at times. https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=x97ipDIB79g I don't know all the facts behind that video either, but you can't in good conscience recommend rehoming for a dog with a bite history. If you have a dog that bites, your only options are to keep the dog and get help and lots of management, or euthanasia. The family in that clip said they wanted to rehome the dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 This is a video that shows her recommending euthanasia. I don't know the story behind what happened or whether it was a dog bite or a mauling, as both terms are used but no explanation about the incident itself is given. It was posted on my FB page by someone responding to me posting an article by Victoria Stilwell about Cesar Millan and the pig that got attacked (not that I follow or even particularly like Victoria Stilwell). I'm not posting it as condemnation for recommending euthanasia because I don't know enough about the dog or what happened to have an opinion on whether it was appropriate advice. I'm just backing up what's been said about the fact that she does recommend it at times. https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=x97ipDIB79g Actually I do remember that dog. It was a Cocker that looked to me like it had cocker rage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 What did she actually do wrong? .... as a start: she called herself a 'bystander'. Obviously it is not convenient to admit mistakes, but not taking responsibility by claiming just to be a bystander is IMO pretty shabby...for me a bystander is someone not directly involved in the setup, e.g. the owner of the pig in the CM incident, however, the moment I'm with a dog squashed in a helicopter as part of an exercise I'm not a bystander anymore but part of the setup. Thus it is also her duty of care to evaluate potential risks. If all the 'experts' involved in this incident would have taken 5 minutes for a simple risk assessment they would have picked up that the helicopter noise and the turbulences might make it impossible for the dog to hear the commands. The handler released the dog, the dog unable to hear the clue clearly made the choice - seeing a target in front of him - that he was sent to attack... and of course he did. They all let the dog down, and as all involved - she and the handler - are somehow experienced (if you look on her site she even runs some programs for avoiding dog bites!!!!) the reason for the incident was mainly grossly negligence. We are so lucky that we have such an experienced trainer like you to tell us wimmins how things are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 This is a video that shows her recommending euthanasia. I don't know the story behind what happened or whether it was a dog bite or a mauling, as both terms are used but no explanation about the incident itself is given. It was posted on my FB page by someone responding to me posting an article by Victoria Stilwell about Cesar Millan and the pig that got attacked (not that I follow or even particularly like Victoria Stilwell). I'm not posting it as condemnation for recommending euthanasia because I don't know enough about the dog or what happened to have an opinion on whether it was appropriate advice. I'm just backing up what's been said about the fact that she does recommend it at times. https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=x97ipDIB79g I don't know all the facts behind that video either, but you can't in good conscience recommend rehoming for a dog with a bite history. If you have a dog that bites, your only options are to keep the dog and get help and lots of management, or euthanasia. The family in that clip said they wanted to rehome the dog. Oh, I agree completely. The only time I'm okay with rehoming a dog with a bite history is if it's to an experienced trainer who's willing to take the dog on to rehabilitate it, and that would be pretty rare. If the family isn't willing to work with the dog, and if their child was genuinely at risk I wouldn't expect them to, then I don't know that there are any alternatives to euthanasia. If the bite incident wasn't serious or was provoked by something like a kid pulling the dog's ears etc.., then I think a good trainer should at least discuss rehabilitation and management with the owners, rather than saying the only option is to euthanise. But again, I don't know the background to this clip and was just posting it as confirmation that she does recommend euthanasia, not as a judgement on whether it was the correct advice for this situation. It wasn't just a bite history. From memory the dog turned into cujo at the drop of a hat. Perfectly fine one minute and then totally nutso the next. But people are tying to make out that she suggests killing dogs if her positive training methods didn't work. I have fairly fond memories of the show and I certainly would not have those memories if she was going around telling people to kill dogs. I haven't made it through a CM show for instance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lhok Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 That video is pretty bias, It doesn't show the lead up and the comments within the comment section are horrid, basically who ever posted it has an axe to grind against Stilwell due to this being in the description: "Victoria Stilwell is a supporter and advocate for force free, positive only dog training. In this video it shows her ignorance as she sends a dog off to slaughter as her methods have failed. Without even referring to someone else who may be able to help...." However one of the comments sheds further light on the recommendation for euthanasia the dog: "+The Masked Dog Trainer guess you didn't do your research. two vets recommend the dog was put down, Victoria stillwell agreed. the vet, the family, and VS reached the same conclusion and the owners agreed to allow the show to do that segment. it's tragic a neurological condition can put the lives of others at risk and euthanasia is the best solution for those dogs. look it up!!!" I don't know hardly anything about Stilwell and I want to stay out of training politics/arguements, so all I will say is I hope she recovers well. --Lhok Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 To be honest I come across way too many dogs that should never have been adopted out "to someone who doesn't have kids"...low and behold there are kids that visit on occasion and that's when it goes pear shaped. Or the person who you tell in no uncertain terms that a dog should never have close interactions with other dogs...who continue to put the dog in those situations as they just don't understand that not all dogs need play dates to be happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 .... as an example of her being as unethical as Cesar Millan ...so where do you take your examples that he is unethical conversely to her???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raineth Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 What did she actually do wrong? Trust the handlers and trainers when she shouldn't have? If handlers and trainers told me it was safe to sit in the helicopter I probably would have believed them too. I might have then looked at the revved up police dog and thought 'oh shit' but it would have been too late then. She isn't a police dog trainer. From watching her shows (and I did watch quite a lot) I can't even recall a heap of aggressive dog problems. It was things like dog pulling on the lead or counter surfing. Just pet problem stuff. I can't remember her ever saying that a dog should be put down I quite liked her and her boots :laugh: Oh and she had her own dog training business before the TV show. Exactly Jules, It's not like she poked the dog with a stick! We're all only human, and it was just an accident with very harsh consequences for her unfortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 .... as an example of her being as unethical as Cesar Millan ...so where do you take your examples that he is unethical conversely to her???? I think putting the pigs in a situation where they could be attacked, and letting a dog with a history of attacking, off leash and muzzle free with them is unethical. I think tightening the collar on dogs until they can't fight back and give up/shut down is unethical. I think provoking dogs to get them to react badly or attack so that you can punish the behaviour is unethical. I'm sure I don't need to keep going.. the dog in the helicopter definitely had a attack history (he was trained to do this!), muzzle free, off leash...she - according to her teaching on her website - is an expert in avoiding dog bites, still she did not only nothing to prevent the bite, but contributed heavily to it via her stupid behaviour - well, according to your standards I call this 'unethical' too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 (edited) .... as an example of her being as unethical as Cesar Millan ...so where do you take your examples that he is unethical conversely to her???? I think putting the pigs in a situation where they could be attacked, and letting a dog with a history of attacking, off leash and muzzle free with them is unethical. I think tightening the collar on dogs until they can't fight back and give up/shut down is unethical. I think provoking dogs to get them to react badly or attack so that you can punish the behaviour is unethical. I'm sure I don't need to keep going.. the dog in the helicopter definitely had a attack history (he was trained to do this!), muzzle free, off leash...she - according to her teaching on her website - is an expert in avoiding dog bites, still she did not only nothing to prevent the bite, but contributed heavily to it via her stupid behaviour - well, according to your standards I call this 'unethical' too. There's a difference between being trained to attack and attacking at will and she put herself at risk, not another person or animal. You must be quite the Cesar fan to try and make that kind of stretch to suggest the situations were similar in terms of ethics. ...if she would have assessed the situation she could have easily asked for a muzzle...that she got bitten, well, I guess that's really her and the handlers fault, but don't forget that - with all the noise of the helicopter, plus she likely screaming, a simple 'out' from the handler was likely not enough and it would have taken some serious force (...aversive methods...) to pull the dog back. Luckily it was only her who got injured, but, with such an attitude and lack of skills to assess such scenarios properly she puts others in danger too, e.g.: Edited March 28, 2016 by Willem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raineth Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 If only everyone was fully aware of the limits to their knowledge and skill.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 From what I have read she put herself in a stupid position, wouldn't listen and wouldn't allow them to have prong or remote training collars on as she wanted people to think these dogs were positively trained only. I think she is another with very little idea. I did research her a bit and yeh, didn't instill much faith that she has much idea what she is doing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lhok Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 Again that video is bias, and is posted by someone who has an axe to grind again Stilwell. As from the comments are all mostly about how Cesar is amazing etc etc. I don't know how you are suppose to assess behaviour without seeing first hand what is going on without interruption. As the person who posted the video comments on a post with this: "starwarssuck1 year ago +Andrea Bright , Holly and "positive" fanatics, you and your supposed "science based training" is 90% shit loaded... if you were truly objective perhaps you would realize that Fact. But your Hate for some one so much better than any of you, when comes to understand and solve dog behaviour issues blind you, pathetic Pigeons." And in the description is this: "Uploaded on Jul 21, 2011 Victoria Stillwell proves once more how Incompetent and Ridiculous she really is, First, she allow to the dog escalate the behaviour and the child gets bitten by the dog. And then all what she did was scream - in one of her ridiculous way - to the dog: - "Nougthy boooooy!" 5 minutes later.... when the "punishment" should be applied btw 1 and 2 secs after the behaviour... Yeah Victoria, the dog did understand you perfectly.... " As to the incident, unless you plan for absolutely everything (near impossible) it was an accident. --Lhok Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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