'not A Man Made Breed '

[Dewclaws]

I was reading through the information written in the cairn terrier breed information on dogz online . ' not a man made breed ' is in the first sentence of the breeds history . I am trying to figure out if I agree with that statement or not .

I own two cairn terriers so I am familiar with the breed ( have owned 4 in total ) they are deffinetly a very natural looking dog, their coat is completely suitable for their original climate .

But I think Charles Darwin would flip in his grave in the assertion they naturally evolved .

Humans would have culled overly aggressive dogs . Would have culled ( or not fed ) lazy dogs no willing to hunt the vermin down . Would have favoured and sheltered dogs that were good hunters and particularly friendly . Would have gifted pups from those dogs to friends and relatives thus sharing positive attributes . On and on it would have went until you have the little friendly fearsome hunter we have today .

So trying to figure out what the writer of that statement actually meant? Sure more modern breeds in the last couple of centuries have had more concentrated selective breeding , with crossing of already established breeds to enhance it ( Australian terrier for example ) but ' natural evolution ' I feel is things like climate and food sources with no intelligent design and the survival of the fittest .

What do you think ?

[melzawelza]

That's just silly. All dog breeds are man made.

[_PL_]

From the title I thought the topic was going to be about wolves and wild things. :laugh:

Edited March 7, 2016 by Powerlegs

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I think that you could vaguely argue that the sort of edge of the village dogs they have in North Africa and Asia and PNG - the ones that look like dingos. Nobody feeds them or vaccinates them or gives them flea treatments - they just fend for themselves on what humans throw away...

Maybe those are dogs that are not man made - humans are not choosing who they mate with or if the puppies are raised successfully or socialised.

But something like a cairn terrier - erm no. Lots of direct human intervention with those dogs.

[mr.mister]

Perhaps what they're trying to say by that statement is that it is a dog that could survive without man, unlike brachycephalic breeds, or breeds that are overly fragile etc etc. Bit of an odd way of wording it though.

[RuralPug]

I am in agreement with you - as far as I know, all terrier breeds were developed by humans.

In my opinion (for what it is worth LOL) the only "not man made" breeds would be those distinct populations of wild dogs that have evolved without any human interference or selection for a thousand years or so, such as the dingo, the pariah dog, the new guinea singing dog etc. There are also breeds which developed without human assistance that are now selectively bred by humans which originally would have fit my definition of not man made, for example the Basenji, the Xoloitzcuintle, the Canaan dog etc.

Perhaps the author of that "not man made statement" re Cairn Terriers was trying to imply that instead of being scientifically designed and created to suit a defined goal, as the Doberman and a few other modern breeds were(can't think of any others of the top of my head), that the Cairn was developed slowly by farmers and vermin hunters who simply put the most successful dogs together over a hundred years or so. (Which is how the vast majority of breeds were actually developed.)

No offence to the spirited and rigged little Cairn, but I think the author of the "not man made" label is unhelpful if that is the intention, as is is hardly a point of difference when there are so very few scientifically designed breeds, like the Doberman.

[oakway]

This is the standard Australia uses for the Cairn Terrier. This is the standard that is used to judge by. By any chance could you be reading a standard that is used by another country, or just someone's interpretation of the standard.

Group 2 (Terriers)

History:

General Appearance:

Agile, alert, of workmanlike, natural appearance. Standing well forward on forepaws. Strong quarters. Deep in rib, very free in movement. Weather-resistant coat.

Characteristics:

Should impress as being active, game and hardy.

Temperament:

Fearless and gay disposition; assertive but not aggressive.

Head And Skull:

Head small, but in proportion to body. Skull broad; a decided indentation between the eyes with a definite stop. Muzzle powerful, jaw strong but not long or heavy. Nose black. Head well furnished.

Eyes:

Wide apart, medium in size, dark hazel. Slightly sunk with shaggy eyebrows.

Ears:

Small, pointed, well carried and erect, not too closely set nor heavily coated.

Mouth:

Large teeth. Jaws strong with perfect, regular and complete scissor bite, i.e. upper teeth closely overlapping lower teeth and set square to the jaws.

Neck:

Well set on, not short .

Forequarters:

Sloping shoulders, medium length of leg, good but not too heavy bone. Forelegs never out at elbow. Legs covered with harsh hair.

Body:

Back level, medium length. Well sprung deep ribs; strong supple loin.

Hindquarters:

Very strong muscular thighs. Good, but not excessive, bend of stifle. Hocks well let down, inclining neither in nor out when viewed from the rear.

Feet:

Forefeet, larger than hind, may be slightly turned out. Pads thick and strong. Thin, narrow or spreading feet and long nails objectionable.

Tail:

Short, balanced, well furnished with hair but not feathery. Neither high nor low set, carried gaily but not turned down towards back.

Gait/Movement:

Very free-flowing stride. Forelegs reaching well forward. Hindlegs giving strong propulsion. Hocks neither too close nor too wide.

Coat:

Very important. Weather-resistant. Must be double-coated, with profuse, harsh, but not coarse, outer coat; undercoat short, soft and close. Open coats objectionable. Slight wave permissible.

Colour:

Cream, wheaten, red, grey or nearly black. Brindling in all these colours acceptable. Not solid black, or white, or black and tan. Dark points, such as ears and muzzle, very typical.

Sizes:

Height: approx. 28-31 cms (11-12 ins) at withers, but in proportion to weight. Weight: ideally 6-7.5 kg (14-16 lbs).

Faults:

Any departure from the foregoing points should be considered a fault and the seriousness with which the fault should be regarded should be in exact proportion to its degree and its effect upon the health and welfare of the dog.

Notes:

Male animals should have two apparently normal testicles fully descended into the scrotum

[RuralPug]

This is the standard Australia uses for the Cairn Terrier. This is the standard that is used to judge by. By any chance could you be reading a standard that is used by another country, or just someone's interpretation of the standard.

...

The OP is referring to this page: My link, the DOL breed information page.

[Dewclaws]

Yes ruralpug, that exactly where I read it .

Not sure who wrote that . It's nothing something I have ever read elsewhere .

Most history I have read describes them as a very old ancient breed, one of the very early Great Britain breeds , most of the rough coated small scotttish terriers have a common ancestor with the cairn said to look the closest to it ( including west highland , Scottish, and border )

Yet since all breeds , certainly in Britain anyway, came from different types of grey wolves then certainly a lot of intervention by the desires of humans resulted in the scruffy, sweet, tough little dog . Unless there is little miniature wolf packs running around Scotland I am unaware of lol .

Edited March 7, 2016 by Dewclaws

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I looked up the UK Cairn Terrier club and they have an article about a woman who had the dogs from the Isle of Skye - so there were Skye terriers and Cairn Terriers being entered in the same breed class but the Cairn terriers did not meet any of the criteria set for the Skye Terrier class...

So a new class was created for them but they weren't allowed to be called short coated skye or any variation on skye...

And there was and is still - some controversy about whether a dog (breed) is for show or for work and whether its form should be for work or for show...

I think that's maybe what the statement means... either that the Cairn is meant for work and the shape of it reflects the work and environment it was living in and not the "show standard". Or that a woman (not a man) "created" the breed by entering her dogs in the "wrong class".

http://www.thecairnterrierclub.co.uk/brocaire.html

[Dewclaws]

Yeah but sky terriers and cairn terriers have the same ancestors . Sky terriers was also bred for the same function , to hunt small vermin . It was only in the last 150 years ago that different small Scottish terriers started to be defined in to types . Supposedly ( going by info on dogz online ) this ancestor naturally evolved and was not man made . Which considering the size compared to a grey wolf is ridiculous because selective breeding must of been involved to dwarf them plus tame them .

Whoever wrote that information needs a science lesson in selective breeding and natural evolution .

[Dewclaws]

This is what us exactly written in the dogz online history of the cairn terrier .

The Cairn is not a man made breed: he evolved naturally over hundreds of years in the Highlands and Islands of Scotland. His ancestors were kept to hunt and kill vermin. Wach Scottish Laird had his own "cullach de madaidhean"(pack of dogs) and crofters had their own Madah or house dog.

In the early 20th century, there was much discussion and disagreement about the name for the breed, but eventually "Cairn Terrier" was agreed. In 1911, a Standard of points for the Cairn Terrier was drawn up, and this was a basis for the present-day Standard by which Cairns are judged.

[Dame Aussie]

That's just silly. All dog breeds are man made.

Yep!

[Willem]

That's just silly. All dog breeds are man made.

Yep!

no...only domestic dogs are man made; there are a lot of other dogs out there where humans didn't interfere much with breeding, e.g. dingo.

[sandgrubber]

That's just silly. All dog breeds are man made.

Yep!

no...only domestic dogs are man made; there are a lot of other dogs out there where humans didn't interfere much with breeding, e.g. dingo.

A lot of 'breed histories' are bulldust.

What the hell does 'man made' mean? Teriers did not evolve by natural selection in the wild . . . if that's what is implied.

[Dewclaws]

There is a fantastic dog documentary . Gives a great overview of the great special relationship between dogs and humans . Covers domestication, intelligence and how how dogs are vastly different to their common ancestor grey wolves and how human selection of traits have genetically made them this' way . A dingo is much different to a grey wolf . Certainly humans have made them that way .

It's called ' the secret life of dogs ' on SBS catch up and free to watch .

Edited March 7, 2016 by Dewclaws

[oakway]

This is the standard Australia uses for the Cairn Terrier. This is the standard that is used to judge by. By any chance could you be reading a standard that is used by another country, or just someone's interpretation of the standard.

...

The OP is referring to this page: My link, the DOL breed information page.

Thanks for that, I am pretty sure I get the gist of it now.

[melzawelza]

That's just silly. All dog breeds are man made.

Yep!

no...only domestic dogs are man made; there are a lot of other dogs out there where humans didn't interfere much with breeding, e.g. dingo.

I thought it would be clear that I'm not including wild dogs under the banner of 'dog breeds'. I wouldn't call a dingo a breed of dog. They stand separate.

[Dewclaws]

Considering my cairns do everything possible to not get their paws wet on a cold frosty morning then I and pretty comfortable saying there is nothing 'wild' about them lol .

No doubt there is some breeds of dogs less ' interfered' by humans , the traditional sled dogs the Inuit people use for example are very similar in some ways in both looks and even temperament ( very hierarchy driven ) to grey wolves . Certainly are not ' pets ' but even still they are domesticated . You could not get a grey wolf and hook it up to a sled and expect it to submit to men .

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Maybe we or better - the Cairn Breeders club could update the DOL blurb for Cairn Terrier...

I can't find those exact words anywhere else on the web using a google quote search in the UK and USA, and it only comes up here. Does anyone know who wrote it?

Edited March 7, 2016 by Mrs Rusty Bucket