Submissive Peeing And Increase In Anxiety

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Rusty has been impeccably behaved at my parents place (we gave them the rusty guidelines) and so far no accidents or misbehaviour at all. I wonder if Annie also makes him nervous, as he is so calm without her around and visa versa (maybe it is a good change for him too to not be around her).

This suggests that consistent training could work but also his trigger for rude behaviour is Annie the Kelpie.

Now I'm wondering if he's rude with all other dogs or Annie is special. And whether he is bullying her or trying to placate her. I think he's bullying her from your descriptions but I don't know why - other than he can.

Nuts off - good to know. Unfortunately removing the nuts that aren't there means not an option for trying to improve his behaviour (or humping Annie enthusiasm).

[Dogsfevr]

I think the reality is Annie is special needs & whilst you wanted a friend established before the new baby arrives it just wasn't meant to be & maybe just to much going on in Annie's world

Whilst i think Beagles are great dogs i do think they require a certain partner to be compatible .

[kami]

I think so showdog. Rusty and Annie (and both of us!) seem happier and calmer with the two dogs split up.

Mum and dad seem rather reluctant for Rusty to go back to the shelter ("you mustn't make any hasty decisions") and are taking steps which show they see him as more than a temporary inhabitant (reinforcing the gaps (about 10 cm on the back gate to ensure he doesnt get out - even though he was meant to leave today...).

so we have taken the steps to call the rspca and cancel the surrender for now (at mums encouragement).

They should be reasonable doggie parents - are happy to walk him twice a day (has had 3 walks in 24 hours!) will need to be taught how to loose lead walk him, or with a gentle leader. He would have a very large suburban 1/4 acre block to live on and is a 5 minute walk from the beach. My only caveat if they want to keep him long term is that I must persuade my mum to do training with me once a week to ensure he keeps his good manners, and teach them how much more effective positive reinforcement can be. I figure its a good excuse for mother/daughter bonding - but will also stop rusty from developing bad habits, and teach my parents good ones.

I will also have to teach my mum and dad some self control when it comes to feeding - love can be shown through playing not just through food! I have given them guidelines on appropriate amounts to feed and explained a beagles stomach is, essentially bottomless. We have agreed to take Rusty for holidays if they keep him, so we would put him on a diet when he comes to stay if needed.

If this doesnt prove an effective option for Rusty or my folks, it gives us loads of time to find him a good home through Beagle Rescue or save a dog, so that he is matched with an appropriate home (maybe as an only dog!) In the future. All the cute pics I am sent from my folks show him calmly sleeping or lying on their rug, or walking on the beach.

Will take Annie to visit him today, which will be interesting. Will post back on the final outcome with some pics if my folks agree to take him for good, or to update if we rehome through a rescue group.

Edited March 15, 2016 by kami

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

That seems like a good outcome for both dogs for now.

tho I'm not sure Annie going to visit Rusty will be good - unless you supervise the interactions (no bad behaviour from Rusty, to prevent bad behaviour by Annie).

I've had to crate or put my dog in the car when visiting my brother while he had extremely rude dog. And in the end I stopped taking my dog to visit while he had rude dog.

[Two Best Dogs!]

It could be she enjoys his company more as a casual friend than as a housemate. I am also thinking he might have been nervous and anxious over her anxiousness, making him bullish. Then it spirals.

Sounds like it could potentially work out at your folks, crossing my fingers.

[kami]

Well, i think today confirmed that the two dogs, well, just aren't destined to be besties. Rusty races up and play bowed and put on the full works - Annie just kept avoiding avoiding avoiding!But no snarks at him. She was super anxious around people with him there (but eventually settled) she clearly feels (despite some serious effort from us) that Rusty takes time and attention away from her. She is so much calmer without him there. She basically blanked him.

I think Thistle has it in one - Rusty is such a friendly forgiving boy that Annie ignoring him was making him anxious, and making him try harder, which was making Annie more nervous - an ever increasing spiral. Probably resolvable except for the lack of any interest on Annies part, but they should tolerate each other at family gatherings ect.

Edited March 15, 2016 by kami

[persephone]

fingers crossed your parents can commit to keeping up Rusty's training / brain food :)

Annie def. needs her own time ..you are doing really well.

[skip]

I should eating dinner after dog training now but had to finish your story.

I have a Annie type Kellie and let me tell she would never accept your beagle.

I'll bet both dogs will be so much happier. Thank you for being so considerate. My Kellie can be affectionate to my small dogs as they r polite but generally Kellie's and working dogs don't like in your face type dogs. Mine hates most staffys and labs yet. They r lovely dogs. Kelpies r much more into say hello then let's run and run.

Worth telling you mine pees in fear and also when she is super excited to meet her friends. At four doubt she will change now.

Good outcome too. Good luck with Annie.

[kamz]

UPDATE: An unexpected ending...

Well, things have turned out rather differently than intended. Rusty the beagle came back to us from our parents as they left the back gate open one too many times while I was in hospital, so I asked him to return Rusty to us. We then intended to surrender Rusty, and came so far as to taking him to the shelter and signing the paperwork. The shelter happened to be full, so they asked us to take him back for the weekend so he wouldnt have to stay in quarantine.

My parents persuaded us not to give him up yet, so both dogs went off to kennels for a week when we came home with the baby. When the dogs came back, Annie and Rusty were best friends. Annie was the happiest I had ever seen her, having been running around with other dogs for four hours a day at kennels. Things went so well that we decided to keep both dogs, and went back to the behavioural team for consultation and advice. They remarked on how much more co fident and outgoing Annie was, and on how well they were interacting.

And then...

One day my mother came over to see baby Alex. Annie came over and in between mum and I, and in front of the baby. Rusty came over to say hi too. Annie snapped and lashed out at Rusty, less than 1/2 a metre from the baby. We sent both dogs to bed (with neutral voice). I was frightened when Annie lashed out at Rusty, and I think Annie picked up on that. On walks Annie began to snarl and lunge towards another dog continously (we kept walking) and peed when she saw a small child.

We decided, after this occurred a second time (no grandmother present), that unfortunately Annie is simply too sensitive and unstable to be around a little baby, or a toddler, in years to come. So we are trying hard to rehome her, I have tried to get her into numerous rescues with no success. I was hoping to get her into a rescue where she would go direct from foster to a new home, as I think the shelter environment would frighten her. Zero success.

The plan at this stage is to discuss further with the rescue we got her from and see whether they would be ok if we took her to the rspca, as the rescues foster carers are all full atm. The rspca uses foster carers for their more behaviourally challenged dogs, and hopefully as the behavioural team is familiar with Annie at the rspca this would happen for her.

If anyone has any great ideas on rehoming it would be muchly appreciated!

[persephone]

I just wrote a very long post - but it got eaten ..

in a few words - take care - think of exactly what it is Annie has to give , and how much of her life is spent being anxious /reactive .

think of her being yet somewhere else ...more new people..more experiences ....

Is it fair on her ?

Will there be someone who can provide her with what she needs?

is she a liability?

This sort of dog is so difficult ..

thinking of you - been there, done that ,

[persephone]

I'm sorry this is such a difficult situation. Based just on what you've said, I don't agree with your decision to keep Rusty and get rid of Annie. Unless there is something you haven't told us, she hasn't shown that she would be a risk to your baby if Rusty wasn't around. I think she deserves better than being pushed off to a rescue and potentially moved around between foster carers and attempts to rehome her, or even worse, a pound. She sounds like she is unlikely to pass a behaviour assessment by the pound, particularly once you take in to account the added stress she will be under in that environment and stress from being separated from her family. If she doesn't pass, they will euthanise her. That's a horrific thing for her to go through only to be put to sleep surrounded by strangers in a strange and frightening place. If you're not willing to rehome Rusty and work with Annie then I think you owe it to her to give her a wonderful day and then take her to a vet she knows and hold her while they euthanise her and let her go out knowing peace and love.

*nods*

[JulesP]

Try Dave at Diggers Herding http://www.diggersherding.com/

Did you try working dog rescue?

[kamz]

Hey guys. This has been a very hard decision for us, and we have decided to keep Rusty for a number of reasons. We actually sat down and did a pros/cons list for both dogs and 'what was stopping us rehoming' each dog. I wont bored you with these lists, but afterwards there were far more pros for rusty, and far more serious negatives for Annie.

The factors stopping us rehoming Annie were all negative emotions. The factor stopping us rehoming Rusty was that we really liked him - and he had never ever shown signs of aggression (and was great with our pet pigeon, and baby). The factors stopping us rehoming Annie were all based around fear. Fear of what would happen to her, and fear that by abandoning her, we might cause her death.

Unfortunately for Annie, the second she kept snapping around Alex (we were right next to her when it happened) and the fact there was no warning, meant that we HAD to rehome her. Despite all our baby prep and ongoing work, getting trainers in ect, Annie is not comfortable with the baby around. While Rusty cops the brunt of it now, how will she cope with an crawling toddler?

The fact we were right there, inches from Annie and our baby when she snapped, shows how important a stable temperment is around babies. It isn't just supervision - kids can get pretty badly damaged right in front of you. And sadly for Annie, despite a whole year of hard work, her temperment is still unpredictable in this environment.

I don't have any doubt that she could be a fantastic dog in the right home. But we aren't that home anymore

I, and the behavioural team at the shelter think she is very rehomeable to a home with no other dogs and no kids. I want her to have that chance if she can. I believe she could succeed in that environment with prepared owners.

Perse, thanks for your kind words. This has not been an easy decision, but even the behavioural team at the shelter believes it is the right one for us and both dogs.

Snook, I have wondered that same question, as to whether it would be kinder to have her euthanased. However, Annie loves people. There is every chance she will bond to another couple or person in time. Her default mode with new people is appeasement, so as long as she passes the behavioural assessment she should be very attractive to a new home.

[kamz]

And I wanted to add, we asked the shelter to do a general assessment on Annie a few weeks prior to the snapping, and they felt she was quite rehomeable (even with the snapping).

We Have tried getting her into

-herd2home

-working dog rehab

- australian kelpie rescue

-second chance dog rescue

- Working breed rehab

- awdri

(All full:()

[kamz]

Jules does dave rehome dogs?

[Guest crazydoglady99]

Sorry kamz

I agree with Snook x1 million.

Deleted my rather long post..

Edited May 10, 2016 by crazydoglady99

[kamz]

It just seems so - extreme - to euthanase her? She is still a very young dog.....

[Two Best Dogs!]

Oh Kamz how horrible Is Second Chance Dog Rescue the same rescue as Second Chance Animal Rescue? (The latter I have been thinking about fostering for next year maybe, they seem nice)

There's also the Inbetweeners, who going by this flyer I have at home do the dogs "inbetween" homes that may have challenges.

What about Save-A-Dog? http://saveadog.org.au/

They have a few long-stay dogs that can only go to specific homes.

I am not sure as to the reputation of Noah's Bark, but they are a foster-care based rescue.

I wouldn't be putting poor Annie back into the RSPCA, she wouldn't do well in that environment

Edited May 10, 2016 by Thistle the dog

[Kavik]

I also agree with Snook. I've owned an anxious, dog aggressive dog who was fine with people. It was very stressful, so I understand what you are going through, for me it was a very tough and stressful 14 years with Zoe.

If she will not pass a temperament assessment, she will be euthanased at the shelter. For dogs who will not pass a temperament assessment, I feel it is only fair that you either keep them or take them to the vet yourself, where they will know someone who cares about them.

[kamz]

Thanks for the ideas thistle, I am quite happy to try every rescue under the sun if need be. We can return her to pets haven (and have already contacted them), but I am trying to avoid that if I can (she would have to go into their shelter). Yes I did mean second chance animal rescue. I'm guessing maybe their is an influx of dogs over autumn/winter..