Submissive Peeing And Increase In Anxiety

[persephone]

The problem is that the beagle never learned appropriate dog social manners before, and it is always harder to learn this at a later stage - the kelpie might hurt him when teaching the lesson, but she won't kill him. You - or someone else - might be able to achieve some improved behaviour with administered training measures, however - IMO - there are things a dog can only learn from a dog.

I heartily agree with the bolded bits .... kind of agree with the italicised bits ......

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

...if dogs' instincts aren't buried too much under all our micromanagement and perhaps ruined by inappropriate human 'education' measures dogs are normally pretty good in sorting out such situations without killing each other. Wrt the scenario you described I would have been reluctant to intervene, due to the following:

This might have been true 40 years ago when little fluffies never left the house, there was no such thing as a lab x poodle that never learned any manners, and most people who had a dog had a clue about dog body language.

Now we have dogs who don't read other dog's body language because they left the litter before they learned it.

So what happens if you leave my dog to sort it - she will, without killing the other dog. But the other dog won't enjoy it at all and neither will the owner. Some dogs are really slow on the back off message (eg Rusty) and then the next dog my dog sees - gets the same treatment. Which involves being herded away at speed and chomped enough to make a dog squeal but not break the skin.

The dog being herded with violence may have done nothing wrong - it may have just looked like the previous rude dog that got in my dog's face. Or it may have gotten in her face uninvited - which means it can't read her dog body language - totally stiff, upright, fixed stare and tail straight out the back parallel to the ground...ready to pounce hard and herd. And she will shoulder charge the approaching dog, turn it away and then chase it until it is a distance she deems acceptable - usually half a football oval.

Which I find completely unacceptable at the park - so I prevent it as best I can (sometimes we get surprised by a dog I didn't see before she did). Most other owners do not want their rude dogs sorted out in this way either.

I would teach Rusty appropriate manners by preventing and interrupting "rehearsals of bad behaviour" as much as possible. I might teach him better greeting manners. For example: holding a drop while the other dog has a sniff - not jumping all over its head and then going in for a bit of excited humping.

I would not do what Willem has suggested because my dog over does it. And every dog that looks like the rude dog suffers. The Kelpie in this story deserves the owner's protection. If the kelpie has to sort it the kelpie will not respect the owner's lead because when she needed it - she didn't get it so clearly she's taking care of the owner now and not the other way about. And that leads to more stress for a dog.

Dogs are like human 2 year olds when it comes to making decisions in their own best interests. They are also opportunists, and will take what they can get when they can get it. That doesn't mean that's a good way to solve a problem. That's why adult humans take care of dogs and set the rules and not the other way about. If you let the dog set the rules and enforce them - you can be in a whole world of trouble.

[Willem]

I agree that Rusty hasn't learned appropriate behaviour but I'm really concerned about advising a stranger on the Internet, who has dogs you've never met, to let the dogs sort it out for themselves. Yes, there are absolutely situations where it's appropriate for this to happen but I think it's important to err on the side of caution when advising people about dogs that you don't know. In addition to the risks of injury, there is the potential for it to make the situation between the two dogs worse instead of better and having a dog myself who is extremely frightened of other dogs, I would never let him sort it out himself any more because he's no longer stable enough for me to be confident that it would be controlled and wouldn't cause further damage mentally. There's a big difference between allowing a dog to give a quick growl and air snap to say back off (which he's allowed to do although I'd prefer he wasn't in a position to need to do that) and letting them loose on each other to sort it out, when you don't know the dogs involved. When Justice was being rehabilitated the first time around before he got attacked again, he had a couple of scuffles with the behaviourists dogs early on and they were allowed to resolve it themselves because I knew that Justice had never broken the skin on another dog, even when he was being attacked, and the behaviourist knew her dogs, who were trained to help dogs with issues, and she was skilled enough to tell when it was setting boundaries or escalating, so I'm not opposed to that happening when it's needed but I don't think it's a good idea to tell other people to let their dogs sort it out when you really know nothing about them. Safety should always be the first priority.

...from the OP's information I can't see that the dogs are 'problem dogs' (conversely to your dog)...one of them just wants to play and doesn't understand the signals the other dog sends...and so far he got away with his immature behaviour all the time (which is part of the problem). He was rehomed already (too) many times, so I believe some risk might be justified for the chance of keeping both dog without having stress all the time.

[Willem]

...if dogs' instincts aren't buried too much under all our micromanagement and perhaps ruined by inappropriate human 'education' measures dogs are normally pretty good in sorting out such situations without killing each other. Wrt the scenario you described I would have been reluctant to intervene, due to the following:

This might have been true 40 years ago when little fluffies never left the house, there was no such thing as a lab x poodle that never learned any manners, and most people who had a dog had a clue about dog body language.

Now we have dogs who don't read other dog's body language because they left the litter before they learned it.

So what happens if you leave my dog to sort it - she will, without killing the other dog. But the other dog won't enjoy it at all and neither will the owner. Some dogs are really slow on the back off message (eg Rusty) and then the next dog my dog sees - gets the same treatment. Which involves being herded away at speed and chomped enough to make a dog squeal but not break the skin.

The dog being herded with violence may have done nothing wrong - it may have just looked like the previous rude dog that got in my dog's face. Or it may have gotten in her face uninvited - which means it can't read her dog body language - totally stiff, upright, fixed stare and tail straight out the back parallel to the ground...ready to pounce hard and herd. And she will shoulder charge the approaching dog, turn it away and then chase it until it is a distance she deems acceptable - usually half a football oval.

Which I find completely unacceptable at the park - so I prevent it as best I can (sometimes we get surprised by a dog I didn't see before she did). Most other owners do not want their rude dogs sorted out in this way either.

I would teach Rusty appropriate manners by preventing and interrupting "rehearsals of bad behaviour" as much as possible. I might teach him better greeting manners. For example: holding a drop while the other dog has a sniff - not jumping all over its head and then going in for a bit of excited humping.

I would not do what Willem has suggested because my dog over does it. And every dog that looks like the rude dog suffers. The Kelpie in this story deserves the owner's protection. If the kelpie has to sort it the kelpie will not respect the owner's lead because when she needed it - she didn't get it so clearly she's taking care of the owner now and not the other way about. And that leads to more stress for a dog.

Dogs are like human 2 year olds when it comes to making decisions in their own best interests. They are also opportunists, and will take what they can get when they can get it. That doesn't mean that's a good way to solve a problem. That's why adult humans take care of dogs and set the rules and not the other way about. If you let the dog set the rules and enforce them - you can be in a whole world of trouble.

IMO it is not about how they behave regards other dogs outside the house in public - this can / have to be controlled by the owner(s), and the 'let them sort it out' approach I'm talking is definitely not meant for public places respectively with foreign dogs. IMO this 'let them sort it out' approach also doesn't compromise the leadership of the owner - because it is dog vs dog and a (pack)leader doesn't bother about the ranking below him/her as long as no pack member challenges the first rank. IMO the problem here is not even a real ranking / dominance issue - the beagle just wants to play and overdoes it (might be typical for beagles)....all what he needs is to learn that it might hurt when he keeps on going after the kelpie snarls her teeth. It is also reassuring for the kelpie making the experience that she can keep him off her back - at the moment it is only confusing for her: she shows all the right signals (so her instincts are intact), but doesn't get the right response...that is what causing her the stress.

I only can comment on the information the OP provides here, but based on the information I definitely would consider this not so popular approach - it could solve the whole issue pretty quick. Trying to micromanage the whole situation with more or less success over a longer period could do significant damage too, and will maintain the stress for the kelpie (it will always be an unsolved threat for her). Furthermore, if the OP finds out after half a year that it doesn't work out it won't increase the chances to rehome the beagle either.

edited to correct some spelling ....

Edited March 1, 2016 by Willem

[Salukifan]

...I really don't believe these guys are a good match IMHO, and while it probably will be not well received by most, we are considering returning Rusty if we cannot figure out a way for these guys to get along ...

I certainly don't believe that a dog making your older dog's life a misery and causing behavioural issues is a good match, or much fun for you. Was going to suggest this when I first saw the thread.

If you want to try again get a younger (even a baby) working breed male. They'll understand each other so much better.

Edited March 1, 2016 by Haredown Whippets

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

...if dogs' instincts aren't buried too much under all our micromanagement and perhaps ruined by inappropriate human 'education' measures dogs are normally pretty good in sorting out such situations without killing each other. Wrt the scenario you described I would have been reluctant to intervene, due to the following:

This might have been true 40 years ago when little fluffies never left the house, there was no such thing as a lab x poodle that never learned any manners, and most people who had a dog had a clue about dog body language.

Now we have dogs who don't read other dog's body language because they left the litter before they learned it.

So what happens if you leave my dog to sort it - she will, without killing the other dog. But the other dog won't enjoy it at all and neither will the owner. Some dogs are really slow on the back off message (eg Rusty) and then the next dog my dog sees - gets the same treatment. Which involves being herded away at speed and chomped enough to make a dog squeal but not break the skin.

The dog being herded with violence may have done nothing wrong - it may have just looked like the previous rude dog that got in my dog's face. Or it may have gotten in her face uninvited - which means it can't read her dog body language - totally stiff, upright, fixed stare and tail straight out the back parallel to the ground...ready to pounce hard and herd. And she will shoulder charge the approaching dog, turn it away and then chase it until it is a distance she deems acceptable - usually half a football oval.

Which I find completely unacceptable at the park - so I prevent it as best I can (sometimes we get surprised by a dog I didn't see before she did). Most other owners do not want their rude dogs sorted out in this way either.

I would teach Rusty appropriate manners by preventing and interrupting "rehearsals of bad behaviour" as much as possible. I might teach him better greeting manners. For example: holding a drop while the other dog has a sniff - not jumping all over its head and then going in for a bit of excited humping.

I would not do what Willem has suggested because my dog over does it. And every dog that looks like the rude dog suffers. The Kelpie in this story deserves the owner's protection. If the kelpie has to sort it the kelpie will not respect the owner's lead because when she needed it - she didn't get it so clearly she's taking care of the owner now and not the other way about. And that leads to more stress for a dog.

Dogs are like human 2 year olds when it comes to making decisions in their own best interests. They are also opportunists, and will take what they can get when they can get it. That doesn't mean that's a good way to solve a problem. That's why adult humans take care of dogs and set the rules and not the other way about. If you let the dog set the rules and enforce them - you can be in a whole world of trouble.

IMO it is not about how they behave regards other dogs outside the house in public - this can / have to be controlled by the owner(s), and the 'let them sort it out' approach I'm talking is definitely not meant for public places respectively with foreign dogs. IMO this 'let them sort it out' approach also doesn't compromise the leadership of the owner - because it is dog vs dog and a (pack)leader doesn't bother about the ranking below him/her as long as no pack member challenges the first rank. IMO the problem here is not even a real ranking / dominance issue - the beagle just wants to play and overdoes it (might be typical for beagles)....all what he needs is to learn that it might hurt when he keeps on going after the kelpie snarls her teeth. It is also reassuring for the kelpie making the experience that she can keep him off her back - at the moment it is only confusing for her: she shows all the right signals (so her instincts are intact), but doesn't get the right response...that is what causing her the stress.

I only can comment on the information the OP provides here, but based on the information I definitely would consider this not so popular approach - it could solve the whole issue pretty quick. Trying to micromanage the whole situation with more or less success over a longer period could do significant damage too, and will maintain the stress for the kelpie (it will always be an unsolved threat for her). Furthermore, if the OP finds out after half a year that it doesn't work out it won't increase the chances to rehome the beagle either.

edited to correct some spelling ....

With my dog - having to sort out another family dog (that she didn't live with) in a private home yard, lead directly to her being extremely nasty to dogs at the local parks. So it's not at all separate in her mind.

I want my dog to seek my aid and protection when she's in trouble - not sort it out for herself because I don't like the way she does that and you never know if the other dog really will be herded away or turn around and make it a fight to the death.

If my dog has to sort things out for herself - she also ups her game when it comes to protecting me and that's also a bad thing.

And this all stemmed from the other family dog and the other family member saying "let them sort it out". Bad idea. That dog has since died from head butting a car - because the other family member did not think it could be trained to behave appropriately so didn't try.

[Two Best Dogs!]

I would not let them sort it out, it is risky business I think. As the owner you should be setting and enforcing boundaries with a dog that doesn't listen.

My dog was an Annie but now that her confidence is up with dogs she is more of a rusty. A rude rusty. But I know she can just as easily swing back to being an Annie with a bad experience and I don't want her rudeness to upset the other dog. So I am doing a lot in teaching her to meet other dogs calmly, not jump on them in greeting, no running and intentionally knocking them over. No humping. Anything like that and I will take her away to calm down a few notches.

There have been times I haven't split them fast enough and the other dog has had to tell her off for being obnoxious. Unlike rusty she seems to get the message but I do not want her to one day feel it requires retaliation and escalation. So I stop it.

I also try to distract and calm down before that point where she's being too bouncy and ignoring. Other dog moving away or looking away etc. she should be responding to that not when other dog snarls.

I am doing lots of calmness exercises and impulse control, on my trainers advice. Seems to be helping!

I wish you luck. With all the Annie types and rusty types there is a hopefully calm, happy medium they can both learn to be.

[kami]

Willem i appreciate your suggestion, but don't think it would be a great idea for these two guys. Annie is a lovely, intelligent dog who has significant anxiety despite many interventions and strategies to minimise this. She has improved in that her separation anxiety is reduced, she is no longer afraid of men, no longer handshy, less noise phobic. She has shown fear aggression in certain circumstances (at the vets) and redirected aggression onto my husband when we intervened previously during the early stages with her and Rusty (only once, before we sought the advice of our trainers and did work with collar grabs and positive associations).

She simply isn't an overly stable dog (although we really love her lots and lots). I don't feel it is appropriate for her to sort out these issues with Rusty, as I believe there is a high possibility of this being generalised to other dogs. She needs our help and to feel confident she can rely on us IMHO.

My big fear is that if things escalate, it could potentially turn Rusty from being relatively adoptable (super cute and adorable, appears generally confident and outgoing, jumps minimally now, has learnt basic commands sit drop stay ect, and toilet/crate trained) to potentially dog reactive/aggressive - or the same for Annie. While Rusty initiates by being annoying, Annie is starting to react back, and I have no doubt if she starts something she could finish it of she wanted to. Right now, Rusty is much more adoptable than when we first got him IMHO.

We would love to keep Rusty, but not at the expensive of Annies happiness - or his. 10-15 years of spending time with another dog who avoids you isn't going to be much fun for Rusty either.

If we can't prove up to the challenge of solving this quickly, with a reduction in aggression, I believe it may be in both dogs best interests to be apart. In the mean time, we watch and wait :)

[Willem]

no worries, at the end it is you who is the responsible owner - we can only give ideas...different views... possible solutions based on the shared information. However, this shared information can only be a tiny fraction of the whole story. You - or some expert who can visit you - are of course in a much better position to find the right approach that addresses most of the issues ('most' as sometimes there has to be a compromise). The advantage with forums like this is that it allows for different opinions and advises, but - of course - it doesn't mean that it takes the final responsibility away from the dog owner.

Good luck with Annie, she seems to be a fine character, Rusty seems to be more a boofhead :) - keep us informed how you go and what the behaviourists recommend.

[kami]

Update:

We had our session with the behavioural team at the rspca, and it gave us quite a lot to think about.

Based on their observations the dogs basically ignored each other, and there was no real interaction between them. No signs of play or acknowledgement. No outward aggression either in public at least, but we didnt expect that.

In terms of what we are doing with the dogs and what they would normally suggest there wasn't much they could add in terms of interventions. They were concerned that Annies behaviour had deteriorated, (she also submissively peed while there), and agreed she was quite an anxious dog.

I raised the possibility of switching her off prosac onto clopirimide (?mate? not sure of sp.) And they said they would raise it with their behavioural vet (who is someone called Gabrielle Carter, who is well known I believe?)

The other possibility was increasing Annie's prosac dose.

Essentially they offered a treatment plan, but didnt think it would do much. They also suggested rehoming as the other alternative.

Huw and I were more taken back than I expected. We are seriously considering surrendering Rusty, as in the mean time Annie nearly bit Huw accidentally (He was giving her a tablet at the time and had his hand in her mouth) when Rusty caMe over and got too close for Annies liking. She snarled and pressed down on Huws hand, whilst flipping over but not too hard. This happened about 4-5 days ago approx.

I have some general questions for the generous DOL community -

1. Is 3-4 months enough time to get an accurate perspective of their relationship?

2. Is it normal for dogs to not interact or play with one another? If not, is it possible to develop this in dogs that appear not to care for one another at all?

3. If we do go ahead with rehoming would you recommend we go through the rspca or a private rescue organisation? They seem confident they would have minimal difficulty rehoming him (which I agree with) but we want to find a good home for him,with dog knowledgeable people, would wont leave him in a backyard, and who will continue the training and stimulation he needs (loads of toys, and interaction). He is a great dog - calm and even tempered with people, does suffer from some separation anxiety , is destructive but this has lessened (but would be fine with a retired couple or two dog household).

We are considering a trial separation to see how Annie responds to Rusty's absence. It is very sad for us both as believe it or not, Rusty is the more normal, sane dog - we love him dearly now. We don't really feel Rusty bully's Annie per ce, just that she is not coping with having another dog around.

If we didnt have Annie, we would never give him up - but we recognise that Annie needs people like us. He finally learnt to retrieve and play with toys properly with people tonight, which was a happy sad moment :-(

[persephone]

Honestly, if you can do it honestly - it does seem the one thing which will save Annie is rehoming Rusty .

[Willem]

Update:

We had our session with the behavioural team at the rspca, and it gave us quite a lot to think about.

Based on their observations the dogs basically ignored each other, and there was no real interaction between them. No signs of play or acknowledgement. No outward aggression either in public at least, but we didnt expect that.

In terms of what we are doing with the dogs and what they would normally suggest there wasn't much they could add in terms of interventions. They were concerned that Annies behaviour had deteriorated, (she also submissively peed while there), and agreed she was quite an anxious dog.

I raised the possibility of switching her off prosac onto clopirimide (?mate? not sure of sp.) And they said they would raise it with their behavioural vet (who is someone called Gabrielle Carter, who is well known I believe?)

The other possibility was increasing Annie's prosac dose.

Essentially they offered a treatment plan, but didnt think it would do much. They also suggested rehoming as the other alternative.

Huw and I were more taken back than I expected. We are seriously considering surrendering Rusty, as in the mean time Annie nearly bit Huw accidentally (He was giving her a tablet at the time and had his hand in her mouth) when Rusty caMe over and got too close for Annies liking. She snarled and pressed down on Huws hand, whilst flipping over but not too hard. This happened about 4-5 days ago approx.

I have some general questions for the generous DOL community -

1. Is 3-4 months enough time to get an accurate perspective of their relationship?

2. Is it normal for dogs to not interact or play with one another? If not, is it possible to develop this in dogs that appear not to care for one another at all?

3. If we do go ahead with rehoming would you recommend we go through the rspca or a private rescue organisation? They seem confident they would have minimal difficulty rehoming him (which I agree with) but we want to find a good home for him,with dog knowledgeable people, would wont leave him in a backyard, and who will continue the training and stimulation he needs (loads of toys, and interaction). He is a great dog - calm and even tempered with people, does suffer from some separation anxiety , is destructive but this has lessened (but would be fine with a retired couple or two dog household).

We are considering a trial separation to see how Annie responds to Rusty's absence. It is very sad for us both as believe it or not, Rusty is the more normal, sane dog - we love him dearly now. We don't really feel Rusty bully's Annie per ce, just that she is not coping with having another dog around.

If we didnt have Annie, we would never give him up - but we recognise that Annie needs people like us. He finally learnt to retrieve and play with toys properly with people tonight, which was a happy sad moment :-(

...wrt highlighted text: increasing?...why?...the drug might also have an impact on the 'compromised communication' between the 2 dogs - without the drug her body language might become clearer for the other dog...as a kelpie some kind of intensive training (without disturbance from the beagle) might help her to maintain a more balanced spirit, e.g. all the dogs in our agility and obedience classes showed a significant more balanced behaviour after a relative short time (4-5 months): nervous and shy dogs became more confident and calm, over-aroused dogs (like ours) settled down and focuses now 99% on the training...all of them grew with the 'job'.

[corvus]

It's hard. I have just introduced a pup to my household with great trepidation, much planning, and a couple of fallback positions if it starts going south. The issue is my 6.5yo anxious dog that is also on medication and not terribly fond of puppies. We have for that reason held off bringing pup home until she's a bit older and has learned a bit about dogs from dogs other than our boy. I am confident my dog would not injure her, but he is frankly not getting the opportunity at this point. There are barriers between them all the time. The aim is to accumulate as many days with zero snarks in a row as possible while gradually increasing their exposure to one another. We are guarding against a significant and lasting emotional impact on either him or the new dog. There will be a time when the older dog will be allowed to snark at the younger dog to tell her something important, but at this early stage, that could lead to her living in fear of him or him feeling like he has to watch her like a hawk and jump in to discipline at the slightest imagined transgression. It will be another few weeks I expect before I will be considering letting them interact more directly. I'm waiting for him to stop shooting her the odd intense look. It would all be a lot harder if she wasn't a wee little dog that could easily be exercised in the small yard if necessary.

As far as social skills go, I don't think it's terribly uncommon for dogs to ignore one another. It takes time for them to develop a relationship, especially if they don't really care for each other in the first place. You can teach dogs to attend to the signals of other dogs, but you need to be extremely observant and have a pretty reliable call-away. Keeping arousal low and making sure there are lots of breaks where both dogs can shake off and calm themselves is very important. Ultimately, though, dogs mostly learn how to respond to the signals of others through consequences. If we don't want the other dog to have to provide all the consequences and thus get increasingly grumpy about it all, we don't have to. We can teach them when you see a dog turn away from you, you run back to your owner for a treat. We can shape low key interactions by rewarding them before they increase in intensity. I don't think I'd want to be doing this with an anxious dog as the teacher dog, though. There's a possibility I will have to in a little while when some of the barriers come down, and if so, I will be leaning heavily on a good call-away at the slightest hint of conflict from my other dog.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

So for dogs that don't need a behaviourist... and can be trained..

This was Susan Garrett's recommendation this morning and worked with quite a few of her dogs.

To put each dog in a separate crate (or bed/mat if they can both hold a stay in the presence of the other dog) and feed each dog for being calm in the crate...

Then move the crates a bit closer (for the session the next day), until you're feeding both dogs side by side and they're not snarking at each other. Ie if theres any snarking - then stop feeding and move the crates a bit further apart again.

Need to know what the snarking distance is for initial placement of crates.

The idea is that the snarking dog is less worried about the other dog if the snarking dog knows good things come around the other dog.

In this case Susan also suggested the same as what I did - if you have a dog that is being excessively rude and invading the other dog's space (or being overly rough in play) need to put that dog on lead for a bit, then release to see what choice it makes, if bad choice - repeat the on lead time.

I don't think Annie the kelpie has a chance while Rusty is still a rude beagle. But - beagles will work really hard for food.

[kami]

I would like to thank everyone again for their suggestions. We have utilised some of them, but unfortunately the situation continues to escalate. Rusty is becoming increasingly fixated on Annie, who continues to actively avoid him - to the point of running to find me and hide on the bed so she doesnt have to go outside and have supervised pee time with him Rusty and hubby (with hubby separating dogs before things escalate). Active intervention and redirecting is not working. Perhaps different people, with different skills could get another outcome; all I know is that we have done everything within our capability to get the two dogs to get along, and don't want to compromise Rusty or Annies welfare.

So we have taken Rusty back today and met with the admission team at the rspca. Can anyone provide any ideas as to a better way of rehoming him? We dont really know anyone suitable to rehome him to, and was not sure whether taking him to a rescue would be a better option? Any thoughts or ideas would be appreciated. Our back up plan is to surrender him to the RSPCA tuesday - the behavioralist who saw Rusty and Annie together will assess him separately before he can be adopted.she thinks he should be quite adoptable given he has been having lots of obedience training and is now crated trained and toilet trained. My only other thought is to talk to the trainers at our obedience club and see if they know anyone....

[kami]

Thanks for your kind words Snook. They really mean the world under the circumstances. Its so hard because Rusty is finally settled, and generally a very well behaved all round dog. His destructiveness has decreased, and his seperation anxiety is much improved.

we are based in the south eastern suburbs of melbourne, around moorabbin.

[Two Best Dogs!]

I'm sorry it didn't work out But you're making the decision with everyone's best interests in mind.

For local rescues:

SaveADog is in Glen Iris, I've heard good things about them keeping up with a dogs obedience habits but are also honest about any challenges a dog might present. Sounds like Rusty wouldn't be there for long though, off to a new home quickly no doubt :)

Edited March 13, 2016 by Thistle the dog

[Guest crazydoglady99]

I'm sorry it didn't work out

I think you're making the right decision.

The rspca will be fine - I bet he gets snapped up by a lovely family quickly.

I hope you and Annie feel better x

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

kami

I'm sure you've done the best you can with what you have available.

This group might be able to help. Some of the breed rescues only deal with dogs with papers but others are more open minded. And they might have some general advice about what to do.

http://www.beaglerescuevic.org/aboutus.html

Another place to put a note up to advertise Rusty is at your vet. Ie if someone has recently lost their pet or they're looking for another one - Rusty might be a good option for them.

Might be best if he goes to a home with an easy going Labrador or another beagle. Not to a home with another nervous dog.

This is petrescue's advice on what to do. You can skip the part about do you really need to and get to the bit about how. If you put an ad up for him, always post a price - so he doesn't go to a home that either can't afford him or are planning to make a profit in some way or worse - free dog fight bait.

Has Rusty been desexed? I can't tell from this thread. I'm assuming that would have been one of the first things suggested if he was still entire? Rehoming a desexed male is usually easier than a not desexed one. If he has still got his nuts - the price you put on him - should include a voucher for desex at your favourite vet or the RSPCA. If he goes to the RSPCA and they assess him as rehomeable - they will desex him before they rehome him.

https://www.petrescue.com.au/library/articles/help-i-need-to-rehome-my-pet

[kami]

Thanks for everyones advice. We have taken Rusty to my parents for the next few days unti we have to take him back to the rspca, so that we could have a trial separation as it were, in case Annie turns out to be rather happy to see him after a few days, and to make sure we can really do bring ourselves to do it.

Rusty has been impeccably behaved at my parents place (we gave them the rusty guidelines) and so far no accidents or misbehaviour at all. I wonder if Annie also makes him nervous, as he is so calm without her around and visa versa (maybe it is a good change for him too to not be around her). Our house seems very empty, quiet and peaceful without him around (a little boring too, but not at a continuous high stress level) . He looked for us a little, but perhaps having all his familiar things and having visited my parents a few times it mustnt seem so scary. Whatever happens we will send all his things - crate bed toys ect with him to make any move less stressful on him.

There is a little part of me that hope that Rusty might worm his way into their hearts ...... they have had dogs before but not one so well trained and beautifully tempered (an indictment perhaps on the old school training techniques they had trained their old dogs with). They are continuing all his positive reinforcement and crate training while he stays (we have shown them some basics).

Rusty has already lost his nuts. Save a dog does sound good - we don't want him to really go somewhere without any interest in maintaining obedience. We will have a chat wth the behavioural team at the rspca - take this time without him to really ponder the options.